Working towards 20mph
Comments
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Isn't that the idea?
It never gets easier, you just go faster, go further, go higher, hurt the same or hurt more. I've realized now that some kind of average speed may be silly. Power, endurance, beating personal bests, doing harder climbs, going further seem to be better.
But, have to finish the smaller stuff first. I'm the kind of person I need some kind of long time goal to look forward to in addition to the short-term goals you know you will eventually get to. Mt Mitchell right now is a far off idea, but something I think I would want to try.
Either way, I have a 106 mile fund raiser ride in May. I tried to start a group at work, since our work place is a main sponsor of the event. But nobody wants to train. So I may have to do it without a pace-line.
So far all of my long rides are without a pace-line. I've never riden a pace-line. I can only assume for a long distance it would be a very nice experience.0 -
burnthesheep wrote:Isn't that the idea?
...I've realized now that some kind of average speed may be silly. Power, endurance, beating personal bests, doing harder climbs, going further seem to be better.
Glad you've seen sense.burnthesheep wrote:ISo far all of my long rides are without a pace-line. I've never riden a pace-line. I can only assume for a long distance it would be a very nice experience.
'Pace line'?! Interesting Americansim. Look up 'through and off' and draughting.seanoconn - gruagach craic!0 -
Pinno wrote:'Pace line'?! Interesting Americansim. Look up 'through and off' and draughting.
When running for training for futbol it was called a "stone run". But instead of assuming the front after being last, then next, then 2nd in line, then first you would sprint to the front from the rear. Then you would drop to 2nd, then 3rd, then last, then repeat the sprint to the front.
The idea in running was the opposite of saving energy like biking.
I like the "through and off" and "draughting" terms, very nice.
I'd like to research it en espanol tambien p/q tengo amigos latinoamericanos q monta en bici.
My first guess en espanol would be "una cola". That's what you call "queuing up" anyway, a tail.0 -
burnthesheep wrote:Pinno wrote:'Pace line'?! Interesting Americansim. Look up 'through and off' and draughting.
When running for training for futbol it was called a "stone run". But instead of assuming the front after being last, then next, then 2nd in line, then first you would sprint to the front from the rear. Then you would drop to 2nd, then 3rd, then last, then repeat the sprint to the front.
The idea in running was the opposite of saving energy like biking.
I like the "through and off" and "draughting" terms, very nice.
I'd like to research it en espanol tambien p/q tengo amigos latinoamericanos q monta en bici.
That's probably due to Quintana and Chavez.
The principal dynamics of cycling (apart from individual Time Trialling) and most definitely and in a very processional, pronounced way in TTT (team time trialling) is slipstreaming.
The dynamics of cycling is such that going from the rear to the front would only probably be a training exercise and I have never heard of it. It would probably be detrimental to maintaining a high speed given that covering the ground between even say 8 cyclists (going at a rate that you could just hold on to) and the front would mean that you have no energy to increase the pace or even perhaps maintain the pace once you got to the front.
If you watch 'How the race was won' on You tube, echelon, the 'sweet spot' and other factors to cycling are explained.
Unlike running (unless into a very stiff headwind), you are getting the benefits of sitting in someone's slipstream up to 40% - that is, you are spending up to 40% less energy to do the same speed than the guy in front. In a large group, this can be increased even further.
So it's 'through and off'. Watch the last 5 km's of a flat stage and you'll see that as the pace increases, the amount of time an individual does at the front get's smaller and smaller. Sometimes it's so fast, the protagonists drop off completely having done their job to protect a sprinter or lead him to the point where he starts sprinting and there's not enough energy to maintain that pace. This is called a 'lead out train'. All riders from the same team (but of course, other riders will get into the foray for their 'own man'.)
In a training situation, a group (take 8 riders hypothetically) can easily find a relatively flat section of road and practice - 2 minute, 1 minute and 30 seconds, 20 seconds at the front and then peel off to the back and he/she will then have 7 times whatever the pre determined interval is. 2 minutes flat out would be a hell of an effort. 2 minutes at say 80% is feasible. As each time spent at the front gets less, the average pace increases - as you are doing shorter and shorter efforts. Unless some people are shirking.
7 times 1 minute, is a 7 minute break sitting in a 'train', getting all the benefits of an accumulation in draughting.
This ^ is 'through and off''. You will learn to be comfortable sitting inches (inch - honestly) from the guy in front's back wheel. There's no reason for them to brake in any normal circumstance, so there is mutual trust involved. You will also see the difference in the draught at 10 inches as opposed to 1.
You'll also learn to move through to the front (when the rider in front of you peels off) smoothly. Do not kick unless the kick is merely an adjustment of your own pace or else you may 'snap the elastic'. The effect of through and off is quite different given terrain - like a 'false flat': a flat that looks flat but is actually a slight incline or a slight decline. You may find that at 28mph in a train, you are okay (just) and then the road goes up by a fraction and you suddenly cannot sustain the pace. Adios amigo - 'spat out the back' as we say or 'the elastic snapped' and there's no way without a cessation of that pace or a superhuman effort you will get back on.
The other factor is wind - a train into a headwind means that you need to be better prepared for what can seemingly be a physical shock as you hit the front and of course the train will not be going as fast as with a tail wind or no wind.
In racing, you may be flat out regardless of inclines and headwinds, the only difference is your average speed. The effort is still the same.
Taking the above into the pretext of group riding, you can ride 2 abreast and choose say 5 to 10 minutes at the front whilst you sit in line waiting your turn for your 5 to 10 minute stint. This way, a group ride if everybody sticks together can be immeasurably faster than a solo ride (and fun). The interval per pair could be in miles, rather than minutes. Most group rides are a little bit more organic than this in that the stronger riders may stay out front for longer than the others - to schedule the effort is a little bit mechanistic and improbable but you get my drift.
If you get a genial group together riding in line and setting a conducive pace to everybody, 100 miles can be straightforward. 20 mph in a group ride for 60 miles (3 hours) is also achievable. It will be then that you realise that 20 mph on your own for that duration is a pretty big effort and has little value.seanoconn - gruagach craic!0 -
That was an interesting read pinno. Just a couple of points I would take issue with - you say the principle dynamics of cycling is slipstreaming. This may be a principle dynamic if you are racing or just group riding, but lots of individuals do solo riding, not just time-trialists. I agree that 20 mph average for a 60 mile solo ride is very difficult and would require a pretty big effort - but in view of the effort it would take compared to doing it in a group ride, why do you say it has little value?Pinno wrote:burnthesheep wrote:Pinno wrote:'Pace line'?! Interesting Americansim. Look up 'through and off' and draughting.
When running for training for futbol it was called a "stone run". But instead of assuming the front after being last, then next, then 2nd in line, then first you would sprint to the front from the rear. Then you would drop to 2nd, then 3rd, then last, then repeat the sprint to the front.
The idea in running was the opposite of saving energy like biking.
I like the "through and off" and "draughting" terms, very nice.
I'd like to research it en espanol tambien p/q tengo amigos latinoamericanos q monta en bici.
That's probably due to Quintana and Chavez.
The principal dynamics of cycling (apart from individual Time Trialling) and most definitely and in a very processional, pronounced way in TTT (team time trialling) is slipstreaming.
The dynamics of cycling is such that going from the rear to the front would only probably be a training exercise and I have never heard of it. It would probably be detrimental to maintaining a high speed given that covering the ground between even say 8 cyclists (going at a rate that you could just hold on to) and the front would mean that you have no energy to increase the pace or even perhaps maintain the pace once you got to the front.
If you watch 'How the race was won' on You tube, echelon, the 'sweet spot' and other factors to cycling are explained.
Unlike running (unless into a very stiff headwind), you are getting the benefits of sitting in someone's slipstream up to 40% - that is, you are spending up to 40% less energy to do the same speed than the guy in front. In a large group, this can be increased even further.
So it's 'through and off'. Watch the last 5 km's of a flat stage and you'll see that as the pace increases, the amount of time an individual does at the front get's smaller and smaller. Sometimes it's so fast, the protagonists drop off completely having done their job to protect a sprinter or lead him to the point where he starts sprinting and there's not enough energy to maintain that pace. This is called a 'lead out train'. All riders from the same team (but of course, other riders will get into the foray for their 'own man'.)
In a training situation, a group (take 8 riders hypothetically) can easily find a relatively flat section of road and practice - 2 minute, 1 minute and 30 seconds, 20 seconds at the front and then peel off to the back and he/she will then have 7 times whatever the pre determined interval is. 2 minutes flat out would be a hell of an effort. 2 minutes at say 80% is feasible. As each time spent at the front gets less, the average pace increases - as you are doing shorter and shorter efforts. Unless some people are shirking.
7 times 1 minute, is a 7 minute break sitting in a 'train', getting all the benefits of an accumulation in draughting.
This ^ is 'through and off''. You will learn to be comfortable sitting inches (inch - honestly) from the guy in front's back wheel. There's no reason for them to brake in any normal circumstance, so there is mutual trust involved. You will also see the difference in the draught at 10 inches as opposed to 1.
You'll also learn to move through to the front (when the rider in front of you peels off) smoothly. Do not kick unless the kick is merely an adjustment of your own pace or else you may 'snap the elastic'. The effect of through and off is quite different given terrain - like a 'false flat': a flat that looks flat but is actually a slight incline or a slight decline. You may find that at 28mph in a train, you are okay (just) and then the road goes up by a fraction and you suddenly cannot sustain the pace. Adios amigo - 'spat out the back' as we say or 'the elastic snapped' and there's no way without a cessation of that pace or a superhuman effort you will get back on.
The other factor is wind - a train into a headwind means that you need to be better prepared for what can seemingly be a physical shock as you hit the front and of course the train will not be going as fast as with a tail wind or no wind.
In racing, you may be flat out regardless of inclines and headwinds, the only difference is your average speed. The effort is still the same.
Taking the above into the pretext of group riding, you can ride 2 abreast and choose say 5 to 10 minutes at the front whilst you sit in line waiting your turn for your 5 to 10 minute stint. This way, a group ride if everybody sticks together can be immeasurably faster than a solo ride (and fun). The interval per pair could be in miles, rather than minutes. Most group rides are a little bit more organic than this in that the stronger riders may stay out front for longer than the others - to schedule the effort is a little bit mechanistic and improbable but you get my drift.
If you get a genial group together riding in line and setting a conducive pace to everybody, 100 miles can be straightforward. 20 mph in a group ride for 60 miles (3 hours) is also achievable. It will be then that you realise that 20 mph on your own for that duration is a pretty big effort and has little value.0 -
ForumNewbie wrote:Pinno wrote:burnthesheep wrote:Pinno wrote:'Pace line'?! Interesting Americansim. Look up 'through and off' and draughting.
When...value.
That was an interesting read pinno. Just a couple of points I would take issue with - you say the principle dynamics of cycling is slipstreaming. This may be a principle dynamic if you are racing or just group riding, but lots of individuals do solo riding, not just time-trialists.
Yes, I agree. the dynamics of a group is such that average speeds can be much higher in a group than solo.
It's obvious that as he gets more into cycling, the goal posts have shifted towards the 106 mile ride, rather than achieving a 20mph for a solo ride - by a bit of experimentation I suggest, he has realised his original target was and I quote:
" I've realized now that some kind of average speed may be silly."ForumNewbie wrote:I agree that 20 mph average for a 60 mile solo ride is very difficult and would require a pretty big effort - but in view of the effort it would take compared to doing it in a group ride, why do you say it has little value?
No, it has a value in that it is a goal and whilst difficult, it is achievable. If that's what you want to achieve then do it. If you are new to cycling, it would have to be a long term goal - I am sure you would agree that it would take a while and quite a bit of training to do 20mph for 3 hours.
I was simply dissecting 'pace line' and a method of training that he had mentioned. Also, the OP had said that he would prefer group rides given the opportunity.seanoconn - gruagach craic!0 -
Since I want a group for the 100+ mile event, you have to work together as a group. Build some trust and skill.
My Monday ride with friends is a bit of hills. It is a no-dropping ride but you go your own pace between a few pre-selected stop points. You get there earlier you pause your GPS and grab some drink while the rest catch up. I usually arrive in the middle to each stop.
No part of the ride has a good place for that group to "through and off".
My Friday rides have miles and miles of flat space a small group good do it, but nobody comes on Fridays right now.0 -
It's each to their own. From my personal viewpoint, I ride long distances to see new places, without having to resort to public transport, or traffic jams. It's about the journey for me, not POWERRRRRRRRRRRR / cadence / speed, or any of that other horse shit, that gets trotted out ad nauseum, by just about anyone who you make the mistake of telling that you like to ride a bike. But therein lies the beauty of cycling. Everyone takes from it that which they wish to. I just wish everybody would take the 'each to their own' stance.0
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Okay thanks. I agree very difficult to do 20 mph for 3 hours solo. I'm sure that I couldn't even do that on a group ride, but I am getting on a bit.Pinno wrote:ForumNewbie wrote:Pinno wrote:burnthesheep wrote:Pinno wrote:'Pace line'?! Interesting Americansim. Look up 'through and off' and draughting.
When...value.
That was an interesting read pinno. Just a couple of points I would take issue with - you say the principle dynamics of cycling is slipstreaming. This may be a principle dynamic if you are racing or just group riding, but lots of individuals do solo riding, not just time-trialists.
Yes, I agree. the dynamics of a group is such that average speeds can be much higher in a group than solo.
It's obvious that as he gets more into cycling, the goal posts have shifted towards the 106 mile ride, rather than achieving a 20mph for a solo ride - by a bit of experimentation I suggest, he has realised his original target was and I quote:
" I've realized now that some kind of average speed may be silly."ForumNewbie wrote:I agree that 20 mph average for a 60 mile solo ride is very difficult and would require a pretty big effort - but in view of the effort it would take compared to doing it in a group ride, why do you say it has little value?
No, it has a value in that it is a goal and whilst difficult, it is achievable. If that's what you want to achieve then do it. If you are new to cycling, it would have to be a long term goal - I am sure you would agree that it would take a while and quite a bit of training to do 20mph for 3 hours.
I was simply dissecting 'pace line' and a method of training that he had mentioned. Also, the OP had said that he would prefer group rides given the opportunity.
The thing that amazes me about through and off and draughting fast, only a few inches from other riders in a fast group ride, is that there is not more touching of wheels and crashes, especially on steep downhill sections. How do they all manage to stay at the same speed and avoid crashing, particularly when they have to brake at bends and corners etc.?0 -
ForumNewbie wrote:Pinno wrote:ForumNewbie wrote:Pinno wrote:burnthesheep wrote:Pinno wrote:'Pace line'?! Interesting Americansim. Look up 'through and off' and draughting.
When...value.
That...trialists.ForumNewbie wrote:...value?
...opportunity.
The thing that amazes me about through and off and draughting fast, only a few inches from other riders in a fast group ride, is that there is not more touching of wheels and crashes, especially on steep downhill sections. How do they all manage to stay at the same speed and avoid crashing, particularly when they have to brake at bends and corners etc.?
When you watch Pro's haring into a finish, the camera really concertina's the peloton and fore shortens the image. In fact, in any circumstance a front shot, reduces the apparent gap.
On a fast downhill, you give the rider in front lots of room. There's little benefit in draughting. On a slower, more technical downhill or a descent with a shallow gradient, it's just a little quicker than on the flat.
It's all about trust. There is no benefit to anyone for over braking. If you touch the guy in front's back wheel, there is very little effect even at speed as long as he doesn't over-react or if it's a big overlap, lean into it. I have been in and witnessed some silly stuff in group situations. All it takes is one inexperienced rider to wreak havoc.
In Pro racing, the stakes are high - an accident due to stupidity can be career stopping. They are Pro's for a reason, it's not all about athletic ability - bike handling skills are ultra important these days.
Andy Schleck springs to mind - couldn't stay upright. Too many injuries and retired early. Alex Zulle was another one.
Given new technology, CF bikes, ceramic bearings etc etc, average stage speeds can be so high.
I was in a 2 up training session once. I was new to that route - a loop of about 10 miles. He started braking to turn left, I wasn't expecting it and was eye balls out, head down and ploughed straight into his rear mech to a lot of effing and blinding and an expensive bike repair. We both stayed upright.
When you are in a long line, with everybody on the rivet, there's no sudden change of pace. You don't say 'F*ck me, look at that; i'm doing 28mph on the flat" you think "F*ck me, I hope this eases to 27mph 'cos I can't hold that wheel much longer". If there is a sudden change, it's often preceded with shouting and screeching of brakes which you react to.
If you don't hear anything and things happen too fast to react, sometimes you just end up on the deck. It ain't funny when you are flat out and suddenly stop.
Seen as it's been a long time since I have raced and have absolutely no intention of resuming all that pain - even at Cat 5 Sunday Bogtrot over 90's League (when I get that old), I can safely say I only hit the deck once in competition - but that's much more luck than design.
On the other hand, the track guys I knew (crazy baskets with phenomenal leg speed except they couldn't climb for toffee hee hee) would always recount track spills at the Cafe and they were more frequent than on the road.seanoconn - gruagach craic!0 -
Cornering, every man for himself.... But in the normal sequence of events nobody changes speed very fast, so there's no problem. Riding close at speed is one of the more satisfying facets of bike riding.
I sometimes look at birds flocking and think it's astonishing, and then at a peleton and think, how do they do that? And then you ride a race or a fast group and it all makes some sort of sense. You have way more brain power than a Starling and things are happening in only two dimensions at relatively low speed. It shouldn't be that much of a challenge. And it's generally not.
Paul0 -
paul2718 wrote:... And it's generally not.
Paul
No it's not, you're right. The challenge is staying on the wheel in front or the group you're in or even moving through. Oh, the the point where it eases - even of only for a short time. Amazing how quickly you recover and the difference is massive as opposed to the heartbreak when the gap is 1 inch then 2, then 3 then 4, and you're lungs aren't big enough and then it's 15 inches and then suddenly it's like hitting a wall at 2 feet, very little draughting, twice the effort to get that gap back to an inch and the sweat is pouring off your head and into your eyes and you have run out of water...
There was more than one occasion where my bike ended up being flung in the hedge.
I've never been quick on the flat. Flat crits for example, used to kill me. In fact I used to use them for fitness and nothing else.seanoconn - gruagach craic!0 -
Isn't an inch a tad close for an amateur road race?[Castle Donington Ladies FC - going up in '22]0
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DeVlaeminck wrote:Isn't an inch a tad close for an amateur road race?
What yer sayin' like?seanoconn - gruagach craic!0 -
ForumNewbie wrote:
The thing that amazes me about through and off and draughting fast, only a few inches from other riders in a fast group ride, is that there is not more touching of wheels and crashes, especially on steep downhill sections.
If it's downhill and the person in the front isn't pedaling, then if you are drafting, you will be going faster than them by definition unless you brake. You don't lose anything by hanging back further for safety, because neither of you is pedaling much.0 -
KingstonGraham wrote:ForumNewbie wrote:
The thing that amazes me about through and off and draughting fast, only a few inches from other riders in a fast group ride, is that there is not more touching of wheels and crashes, especially on steep downhill sections.
If it's downhill and the person in the front isn't pedaling, then if you are drafting, you will be going faster than them by definition unless you brake. You don't lose anything by hanging back further for safety, because neither of you is pedaling much.
It's the big guys that pi$$ me off. There's me pedalling like a basket and they're flying by free wheeling.seanoconn - gruagach craic!0 -
Pinno wrote:Amazing how quickly you recover and the difference is massive as opposed to the heartbreak when the gap is 1 inch then 2, then 3 then 4, and you're lungs aren't big enough and then it's 15 inches and then suddenly it's like hitting a wall at 2 feet, very little draughting, twice the effort to get that gap back to an inch and the sweat is pouring off your head and into your eyes and you have run out of water...
Sounds like you're making this up. Only a complete and utter chopper would hold a gap of 1, 2, or 3 inches from someone else's wheel - I've seen comms warn people for riding like that. I would suggest that the average gap in a paceline would be about 12-18 inches. An inch? ffs.0 -
Imposter wrote:Pinno wrote:Amazing how quickly you recover and the difference is massive as opposed to the heartbreak when the gap is 1 inch then 2, then 3 then 4, and you're lungs aren't big enough and then it's 15 inches and then suddenly it's like hitting a wall at 2 feet, very little draughting, twice the effort to get that gap back to an inch and the sweat is pouring off your head and into your eyes and you have run out of water...
Sounds like you're making this up. Only a complete and utter chopper would hold a gap of 1, 2, or 3 inches from someone else's wheel. I would suggest that the average gap in a paceline would be about 12-18 inches. An inch? ffs.
Only talking metaphorically Imposter besides, it was simply to emphasise the point that you can ride close and incidents don't happen that often. 10 inches is fine, more than that incrementally and you're not getting the full benefit of the slipstream (depending on how big he is). If there's a cross wind, there's often an overlap - that's when things get a bit tricky. Especially if the guy on front wants to ride in the ditch* to make life as difficult as possible for you.
*metaphor :roll:
Of course, if you want to contradict anything I write using pedantry, go ahead; be my guest.seanoconn - gruagach craic!0 -
There are people who tell you never to overlap wheels. These people have never encountered a crosswind.0
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OnYourRight wrote:There are people who tell you never to overlap wheels. These people have never encountered a crosswind.
Better tell these guys then
seanoconn - gruagach craic!0 -
Pinno wrote:
Only talking metaphorically Imposter besides, it was simply to emphasise the point that you can ride close and incidents don't happen that often. 10 inches is fine, more than that incrementally and you're not getting the full benefit of the slipstream (depending on how big he is). If there's a cross wind, there's often an overlap - that's when things get a bit tricky. Especially if the guy on front wants to ride in the ditch* to make life as difficult as possible for you.
*metaphor :roll:
Of course, if you want to contradict anything I write using pedantry, go ahead; be my guest.
Good job you were speaking metaphorically then (whist ommitting to mention it in your earlier post). Otherwise, people might think you were clueless.0 -
Pinno wrote:OnYourRight wrote:There are people who tell you never to overlap wheels. These people have never encountered a crosswind.
Better tell these guys then
There you go again. Overlapping wheels is not the same as riding an echelon. One is dangerous, one isn't.0 -
Imposter wrote:There you go again. Overlapping wheels is not the same as riding an echelon. One is dangerous, one isn't.OnYourRight wrote:There are people who tell you never to overlap wheels. These people have never encountered a crosswind.
Sums it up really.seanoconn - gruagach craic!0 -
I'm a 6 inch kinda guy myself.....0
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bernithebiker wrote:I'm a 6 inch kinda guy myself.....
lol
I'm sure there are 4 inch and 8 inch 'kinda' guys out there too but I never took my tape measure and duct taped it to the handlebars. Perhaps I should have measured the ebb and flow of the gap between me and the wheel in front so that years later, on an internet forum, I could have supported it with hard evidence. (No pun intended).seanoconn - gruagach craic!0 -
I really am not allowed to write 'flocking'? Birds zooming around the sky at dusk in large groups at close quarters. Starts 'fl', ends 'ing', has a 'ock' in the middle.paul2718 wrote:I sometimes look at birds ******* ...
You ride really close, you align yourself just to one side or the other of the wheel in front and don't routinely overlap.
Paul0 -
I must admit pinno that I read your post like Imposter did. You even talked about getting the gap back to an inch, so I thought that was what you meant.Pinno wrote:Imposter wrote:Pinno wrote:Amazing how quickly you recover and the difference is massive as opposed to the heartbreak when the gap is 1 inch then 2, then 3 then 4, and you're lungs aren't big enough and then it's 15 inches and then suddenly it's like hitting a wall at 2 feet, very little draughting, twice the effort to get that gap back to an inch and the sweat is pouring off your head and into your eyes and you have run out of water...
Sounds like you're making this up. Only a complete and utter chopper would hold a gap of 1, 2, or 3 inches from someone else's wheel. I would suggest that the average gap in a paceline would be about 12-18 inches. An inch? ffs.
Only talking metaphorically Imposter besides, it was simply to emphasise the point that you can ride close and incidents don't happen that often. 10 inches is fine, more than that incrementally and you're not getting the full benefit of the slipstream (depending on how big he is). If there's a cross wind, there's often an overlap - that's when things get a bit tricky. Especially if the guy on front wants to ride in the ditch* to make life as difficult as possible for you.
*metaphor :roll:
Of course, if you want to contradict anything I write using pedantry, go ahead; be my guest.0 -
ForumNewbie wrote:
Well, it's not like a fixed gap is it? I never did bolt a Vernier caliper with a warning lamp and siren on an L bracket to the front forks.seanoconn - gruagach craic!0 -
You not very good at estimating small sizes/ distances without tape measures or vernier calipers then?
PP0 -
Pilot Pete wrote:You not very good at estimating small sizes/ distances without tape measures or vernier calipers then?
PP
Obviously not.
Not for the exacting requirements of a moot point raised in an internet forum some 22+ years since it happened.
However, I am working on a prototype measuring device coupled with an App and an on board mini print out facility but I don't think it will make me a fortune.seanoconn - gruagach craic!0
