Working towards 20mph

ForumNewbie · May 2016

ugo.santalucia wrote:

bernithebiker wrote:

I'm just surprised how easily you dismiss 8700m of climbing whilst pointing at your rides of 3000m, which, lets not forget are 3 times less.
Climbing is not like riding on the flat, even if you try and keep the same power and cadence.
Nothing can prepare a novice 100% for a climb like Alpe d Huez, or Puig Major.
Why are there so many "help me prepare for the Etape" threads?
Climbing is not just watts/kg. There is a lot of techique involved, both physical and mental. The best climbers i know are cyclists that climb a lot.
And i hear the pros have been known to train in the mountains- why bother? Why not just stay in Belgium or Holland?

I don't dismiss, just don't feel the need to hype it as a great performance... I have already pointed out in the other thread how hundreds of cyclists enter the Tour du Mont Blanc every year, so it's not an epic feat by any stretch of imagination. Have I been tempted to enter the TduMB? To be honest yes I have, but there are some logistical issues as well as I am not sure I have the time to prepare for it, hence I make do with events that last 8 hours instead of 16. Could I do it tomorrow? Probably, but not in the way I would like to do it

I am not even comparing it with my meagre 3000 mt of climbing, I don't rate myself very much, hence if someone does better I don't necessarily think he is a superhero... I am well aware of where I stand, which is in the top 25-30% of folks who enter 100 miles events... there are tens of thousands of people fitter tham me in this country.... I am aware of what's out there and how many people do what. If we opened a thread every time someone does 8800 mt of climbing in a day, there'll be hundreds of them, it's not a remarkable feat in this day and age, period.

Ugo, I think most of us mere mortals consider that climbing over 28,000 feet in one day is impressive no matter whether it is a continuous ride or a solo ride up and down a big mountain many times. Maybe lots of people have completed bigger challenges, but it's still good to hear about something like this, and it can be inspirational to beginners reading about it on this Beginners Forum, just like we can be inspired by reading your account of your Fred Whitton Challenge on your website. I just think to indicate that the Everest equivalent in a day accomplishment was nothing special and was not a real cycle ride was a bit mean.

bernithebiker · May 2016

Ugo, it was never a meant as a competition; 'Who's done the toughest ride?' 'Who's ridden the furthest?', etc. etc.

Simply, Strava had a challenge to ride 'Everest' over x days, and this guy did it in one day by multiple climbs of SC. End of.
I thought it an interesting and unusual way to do it, and no walk in the park, by anyone's standards.

Guess it didn't meet your standards of 'hardcoreness'. Oh well.

singleton · May 2016

ugo.santalucia wrote:

How about these more meaningful rides then? What badge should they get?

Some quite impressive figures there
How does someone ride 234km in under 11 hours, have a max speed of 102kmh and still a max heart rate of only 153?
If I was doing 60mph on a bike, my heart rate would be through the roof.....

ugo.santalucia · May 2016

ForumNewbie wrote:

I just think to indicate that the Everest equivalent in a day accomplishment was nothing special and was not a real cycle ride was a bit mean.

I was in good company in saying that... there is cycling and there is athletic performance... they are not necessarily the same thing... unfortunately an increasing number of people see these challenges as meaningful, but I don't think they are. I am sure in a few years time you will either get bored of cycling or agree with me

mrb123 · May 2016

ugo.santalucia wrote:

How about these more meaningful rides then? What badge should they get?

https://www.strava.com/activities/344696014

Note the elapsed time of this, he spent 2 minutes off the bike....

https://www.strava.com/activities/162942571

This ain't bad either, over 2 hours quicker than your man

https://www.strava.com/activities/152874702

This is a Brit, you can spot Hardknott in his avatar

https://www.strava.com/activities/156138958

Or a more steady one

https://www.strava.com/activities/400880103

The morning ride went a bit long

https://www.strava.com/activities/64854246

In that top ride he wasn't far from the Zone Tampon. Could have been messy if he'd strayed into there.

bernithebiker · May 2016

ugo.santalucia wrote:

ForumNewbie wrote:

I just think to indicate that the Everest equivalent in a day accomplishment was nothing special and was not a real cycle ride was a bit mean.

I was in good company in saying that... there is cycling and there is athletic performance... they are not necessarily the same thing... unfortunately an increasing number of people see these challenges as meaningful, but I don't think they are. I am sure in a few years time you will either get bored of cycling or agree with me

If a rider gets motivated by a Strava distance or altitude challenge (I know it works on me), then where's the problem with that?

What is 'meaningful' anyway? To someone starting out it may be very 'meaningful' to complete a 1000km or an 8000m climbing in a month challenge. It that helps them enjoy cycling more, where's the harm in that?

ugo.santalucia · May 2016

bernithebiker wrote:

If a rider gets motivated by a Strava distance or altitude challenge (I know it works on me), then where's the problem with that?

What is 'meaningful' anyway? To someone starting out it may be very 'meaningful' to complete a 1000km or an 8000m climbing in a month challenge. It that helps them enjoy cycling more, where's the harm in that?

There has been a large growth in the number of people who get out on the roads... at the same time there seems to be decreasing interest for touring and recreational cycling... classic circuit events like the Polka Dot Challenge have disappeared and others are struggling, 'cause all this new generation of roadies want to do is to go fast on a number of mostly meaningless Strava segments and like in this case collecting virtual badges and praise from the social network community... it's half the way between a sport and a videogame. Where is the harm in that? In a broad sense there is no harm, but it is worth pointing out that these are just virtual bollox, fashion that comes and go and the sooner folk realise it and stop chasing a half a mile worth of King of a Mountain that doesn't exist, the better. You want to be king of the mountain... I am sure there is a mountain not too far, go climb it and then climb the next and the next instead of going up and down the same stretch of road like an idiot chasing a virtual badge. I know folks who always and only do the same loop, trying to improve the time by fractions of seconds in a completely pointless attempt to replicate some sort of Zeno paradox...

Speaking of weirdness, anyone seen the program on human pups? :shock:

ForumNewbie · May 2016

ugo.santalucia wrote:

ForumNewbie wrote:

I just think to indicate that the Everest equivalent in a day accomplishment was nothing special and was not a real cycle ride was a bit mean.

I was in good company in saying that... there is cycling and there is athletic performance... they are not necessarily the same thing... unfortunately an increasing number of people see these challenges as meaningful, but I don't think they are. I am sure in a few years time you will either get bored of cycling or agree with me

I'm a bit puzzled by that comment. Just because I was impressed to see that someone was able to do that, doesn't mean I do or plan to do these sort of challenges, or that I go out chasing Strava KOMs. At my age and level of fitness, I couldn't hope to do these sort of challenges or get any KOMs on segments. I do like recreational cycling, and quite often I go out on my relatively heavy Audax bike with rack and mudguards, and go at very slow average speeds and enjoy the countryside. But I also sometimes like to test myself to try and get faster on regular circuits, and I do like to look at my rides on Strava, even although they are mostly slow.

However I also like watching pro cycling races, and like reading about inspirational challenges, like forinstance Mark Beaumont's round the world record etc. When I saw the link to the guy that climbed 28,000 odd feet in one day, I was impressed that someone has the fitness, endurance and climbing ability to do that. What is wrong with admiring that?

ugo.santalucia · May 2016

ForumNewbie wrote:

What is wrong with admiring that?

You can admire it if you want, I don't particularly admire the act of doing something for the sake of doing it

webboo · May 2016

Isn't swinging a leg over your cross bar doing something for the sake of doing it.

bernithebiker · May 2016

ugo.santalucia wrote:

bernithebiker wrote:

If a rider gets motivated by a Strava distance or altitude challenge (I know it works on me), then where's the problem with that?

What is 'meaningful' anyway? To someone starting out it may be very 'meaningful' to complete a 1000km or an 8000m climbing in a month challenge. It that helps them enjoy cycling more, where's the harm in that?

There has been a large growth in the number of people who get out on the roads... at the same time there seems to be decreasing interest for touring and recreational cycling... classic circuit events like the Polka Dot Challenge have disappeared and others are struggling, 'cause all this new generation of roadies want to do is to go fast on a number of mostly meaningless Strava segments and like in this case collecting virtual badges and praise from the social network community... it's half the way between a sport and a videogame. Where is the harm in that? In a broad sense there is no harm, but it is worth pointing out that these are just virtual bollox, fashion that comes and go and the sooner folk realise it and stop chasing a half a mile worth of King of a Mountain that doesn't exist, the better. You want to be king of the mountain... I am sure there is a mountain not too far, go climb it and then climb the next and the next instead of going up and down the same stretch of road like an idiot chasing a virtual badge. I know folks who always and only do the same loop, trying to improve the time by fractions of seconds in a completely pointless attempt to replicate some sort of Zeno paradox...

Speaking of weirdness, anyone seen the program on human pups? :shock:

You're barking up the wrong tree here, Ugo.

Events like the Etape, Marmotte, and a host of excellent UK sportives have never been more popular, and new events are springing up all the time.

So I don't think you can accuse Strava of creating a bunch of computer addicted junkies.

You can't be doing sportives all the time though, and that is where Strava helps you hit a monthly target or get a PR up a climb.

And before Strava, could you easily see how fast you were up a famous col compared to your friends or pros? I remember in about 2001, in GVA, there was a ticket system on a 5km col. Take a ticket, punch it in the time stamp, hammer the climb and stamp the ticket at the top and drop it in a box. Every few days they were collected and the times posted on the early internet. Fun, but kind of a complicated way to do it. (Alain Prost and Michael Schumacher were high up the order by the way...)

All the people I know that use Strava also do plenty of sportives, races, and do trips to the Alps, Spain, Majorca, etc. so no, Strava is NOT killing cycling.

Not sure what a Zeno paradox is by the way...?

ugo.santalucia · May 2016

Only the events with a competitive edge and electronically timed are popular... only the ones where people feel they can go fast... everybody is obsessed about going fast... going far has become irrelevant, a 20 miles loop at 20 mph has become the optimum... then there are endurance events for those who want to go fast for a longer time... speed obsession, fuelled by increasingly sophisticated digital way to assess your performance.

Yes, we used to time ourselves going up an alpine climb, but didn't bother timing ourselves in the flat runup to it or from a lamppost to the next along a dual carriageway... or calculating some massaged averages that show how fast we are... we used to do things which were meaningful. If I plot a ride on Strava these days, over 100 Km something like 100 segments pop up, 95% of them are totally pointless stretches of a mile or two, yet populated by folks who clearly take them very seriously.

The Zeno's paradox is about Achilles and the turtle (or tortoise)... no matter how fast Achilles runs, he can never reach the tortoise which starts the run in front, as you can break down his run into smaller and smaller intervals that form a converging series... it's a paradox that shows how mathematics can be tricked into giving you wrong solutions.
The analogy is in the pointless attempt to make increasingly smaller progresses on the same small segment, which is the wrong way to approach cycling IMO

Then one might argue what is meaningful and what is not, which seems to be a recurrent theme in our age of "relativity" and I am sure those folks who dress up and behave as dog pups also think what they do is meaningful and maybe I am just an old git who is not ashamed to think actually it is not... :roll:

bernithebiker · May 2016

I think you're overthinking this.

drlodge · May 2016

I went for a ride today, with some nice people, on some nice hilly roads, and enjoyed myself. I think my average was over 17mph but that's irrelevant since what is important is that I had a great time.

deejaysee · June 2016

Did 45 miles on Saturday and averaged 17.4 which is my best yet.....massive hill included
Normally in the 16s but i was feeling particularly good that day

Quite pleased considering i've only been riding for 6 months

20 average in my dreams

Sleeper Service · June 2016

Question: Do the average speeds being quoted here include stopping at traffic lights, etc, or do they exclude these using some clever pause mechanism that I believe some monitors have?

pinno · June 2016

Sleeper Service wrote:

Question: Do the average speeds being quoted here include stopping at traffic lights, etc, or do they exclude these using some clever pause mechanism that I believe some monitors have?

We have covered that ground on this thread somewhere. It's a big 'somewhere'.

ugo.santalucia · June 2016

Sleeper Service wrote:

Question: Do the average speeds being quoted here include stopping at traffic lights, etc, or do they exclude these using some clever pause mechanism that I believe some monitors have?

Most folks will consider a Garmin average as God's own words... I am in the opposite camp... an average shouldn't be a massaged figure, as different devices massage figures differently, hence miles done times 3600 divided the number of seconds it took you to get there gives you the only meanigful average. If you stop for a wee or at a cafe, you will pause the stopwatch, so to speak.

bernithebiker · June 2016

I'm quite happy for my Garmin to shut off at traffic lights, etc.
I'm not interested in the time I spend not pedalling, only the time that I'm actually riding.
Besides, there's so little traffic and lights round our way that it hardly ever stops the clock anyway.

Sleeper Service · June 2016

Pinno wrote:

Sleeper Service wrote:

Question: Do the average speeds being quoted here include stopping at traffic lights, etc, or do they exclude these using some clever pause mechanism that I believe some monitors have?

We have covered that ground on this thread somewhere. It's a big 'somewhere'.

10 pages of somewhere. The answer seems to be the latter though, which is a relief as I wondered why I was knocking my pan in and going relatively slow (because I use Ugo's method).

sebbyp · June 2016

bernithebiker wrote:

I'm quite happy for my Garmin to shut off at traffic lights, etc.
I'm not interested in the time I spend not pedalling, only the time that I'm actually riding.
Besides, there's so little traffic and lights round our way that it hardly ever stops the clock anyway.

I agree with Bernie here, not interested in the time spent stopped due to juctions. surely its actually more difficult to average 20mph if your constantly stopping/starting even if the garmin is set to autopause at say 7kmh...like mine haha.

pinno · June 2016

sebbyp wrote:

bernithebiker wrote:

I'm... anyway.

I... autopause at say 7kmh...like mine haha.

That means that you magically float over steep hills

ForumNewbie · June 2016

Sleeper Service wrote:

Pinno wrote:

Sleeper Service wrote:

Question: Do the average speeds being quoted here include stopping at traffic lights, etc, or do they exclude these using some clever pause mechanism that I believe some monitors have?

We have covered that ground on this thread somewhere. It's a big 'somewhere'.

10 pages of somewhere. The answer seems to be the latter though, which is a relief as I wondered why I was knocking my pan in and going relatively slow (because I use Ugo's method).

Do you not use a cycle computer then? Garmins, and I think all other GPS units and cycle computers, calculate average speed based on Moving Time.

pinno · June 2016

^ Me nope. Him, I dunno.

Sleeper Service · June 2016

ForumNewbie wrote:

Sleeper Service wrote:

Pinno wrote:

Sleeper Service wrote:

Question: Do the average speeds being quoted here include stopping at traffic lights, etc, or do they exclude these using some clever pause mechanism that I believe some monitors have?

We have covered that ground on this thread somewhere. It's a big 'somewhere'.

10 pages of somewhere. The answer seems to be the latter though, which is a relief as I wondered why I was knocking my pan in and going relatively slow (because I use Ugo's method).

Do you not use a cycle computer then? Garmins, and I think all other GPS units and cycle computers, calculate average speed based on Moving Time.

MS Band 2. Which, upon RTFM, actually does have an auto pause function.

sebbyp · June 2016

Pinno wrote:

That means that you magically float over steep hills

On a road bike, no hill slows me below 10kmh, even 25% gradients, the gearing doesnt allow it say 34 x 27@62rpm min. wouldnt have the autopause set at that speed if it ever kicked in whilst pedalling, that would be pointless haha.
On an MTB ride yes you need to turn autopause off or lower the speed right down.

pinno · June 2016

sebbyp wrote:

Pinno wrote:

That means that you magically float over steep hills

On a road bike, no hill slows me below 10kmh...

That's fighting talk that is.

ugo.santalucia · June 2016

sebbyp wrote:

Pinno wrote:

That means that you magically float over steep hills

On a road bike, no hill slows me below 10kmh, even 25% gradients, the gearing doesnt allow it say 34 x 27@62rpm min. wouldnt have the autopause set at that speed if it ever kicked in whilst pedalling, that would be pointless haha.
On an MTB ride yes you need to turn autopause off or lower the speed right down.

You are talking codshite... 10Kmh at 25% is a VAM 2500 mt/h, which you can probably sustain for 30 seconds at best. Your heroes on TV rarely exceed 1700 mt/h on a climb... of course a sprint finish up Huy is a different story

ForumNewbie · June 2016

sebbyp wrote:

Pinno wrote:

That means that you magically float over steep hills

On a road bike, no hill slows me below 10kmh, even 25% gradients, the gearing doesnt allow it say 34 x 27@62rpm min. wouldnt have the autopause set at that speed if it ever kicked in whilst pedalling, that would be pointless haha.
On an MTB ride yes you need to turn autopause off or lower the speed right down.

You must be very strong then as a look at some pros in the Citerium De Dauphine short hilly Prologue yesterday, shows speeds dropped to about 5mph at times when they hit 20% gradients:
https://www.strava.com/activities/59955 ... sis/29/720

mrb123 · June 2016

The reality is that there are very few roads that have 25% gradients for any significant distance. Even the likes of Hardknott only hit the maximum gradients for a short time. Most roads with 25% signs probably only hit that for a few metres round the steepest hairpin.

Working towards 20mph

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