Church

bianchimoon

Chris Bass wrote:

Does anyone actually know a religious person? celebrities and from the news don't count!

why or how are they bad?

Of course, we all do. They're no better, no worse than any atheist or agnostic person, but their religion tells them they hold a privileged moral place due to them chanting to their imaginary friend every sunday.

To all our religious friends don't get yourself too wound up with my comments I really don't take religion seriously

slowbike

Yes - they're very nice people and whilst I don't agree with their religious view point (strange branch of strict catholic) - that is their choice (even if I have had to block some of the facebook feeds!). I'm more concerned about the children - but trust they'll be given the option of deciding for themselves.

orraloon

Chris Bass wrote:

Does anyone actually know a religious person? celebrities and from the news don't count!

why or how are they bad?

My dad, as of last Nov sadly no longer with us, became a CoS minister, or vicar equivalent for you southerners; after a varied life as a gamekeeper, flew in RAF heavy bombers and survived, a policeman, at age 49 he went to university, took his BD thereafter helping many people in all sorts of ways.

He was emphatically not a god botherer. Indeed he regarded strict fundamentalists of whatever persuasion with a mix of pity and contempt. He did not want to ram a message into peoples' heads.

Rather he was a carer. He liked people, liked to help them, to share their difficulties and bad times when needed, and to help them celebrate good times. His life experiences meant he could empathise with others and he was minded to try to help.

Just a shame that a proportion of loudmouthed gobsh1tes who 'get' religion of whatever denomination feel they have a right to force their belief systems on others.

Me? Don't believe in any supernatural being, so no follow through there.

chris_bass

orraloon wrote:

Chris Bass wrote:

Does anyone actually know a religious person? celebrities and from the news don't count!

why or how are they bad?

My dad, as of last Nov sadly no longer with us, became a CoS minister, or vicar equivalent for you southerners; after a varied life as a gamekeeper, flew in RAF heavy bombers and survived, a policeman, at age 49 he went to university, took his BD thereafter helping many people in all sorts of ways.

He was emphatically not a god botherer. Indeed he regarded strict fundamentalists of whatever persuasion with a mix of pity and contempt. He did not want to ram a message into peoples' heads.

Rather he was a carer. He liked people, liked to help them, to share their difficulties and bad times when needed, and to help them celebrate good times. His life experiences meant he could empathise with others and he was minded to try to help.

Just a shame that a proportion of loudmouthed gobsh1tes who 'get' religion of whatever denomination feel they have a right to force their belief systems on others.

Me? Don't believe in any supernatural being, so no follow through there.

Sorry to hear about your dad, sounds like a good man. This is how i see the church these days, more of a help than a hindrance and more and more just for the older generations.

People keep saying children should be given a choice, but numbers of children going to church is basically zero and falling so they are obviously not that bothered by religion. I think you are doing teachers and parents a disservice too, all the teachers I know would not make a child believe in any religion against their will and as church going continues to fall there will be less and less religious parents too.

mamba80

My mum has been a life long Christian all her life, as was her Dad, as she comes to the very end of her life, the strength her faith gives her is heart warming and sincere, as it was equally to her dad - he survived both the 1st and 2nd WW despite being sunk in the battle of Jutland, did he ever say he was blessed by God ?... no, he said he was lucky no more.
God to my mum and my Grandad was an individual experience and had nothing to do with the so called Church.

i think its very easy to associate the Church with Christianity with the individual experience, the church is no doubt a pretty corrupt set up and its fairly clear their leaders dont believe a word of the bible either.

i also think religion is a handy excuse for people who like to kill, Stalin didnt believe in religion, didnt stop him killing millions, same with Pol Pot and Mao

tangled_metal

3Rs - Racism, Religion and Regionalism (Nationalism). They all divide us and create most if not all the serious world problems.

Having said that there's only one that is capable of good things, religion. Take away the mumbo jumbo and corruption, what do you have? Something that's often a comfort to believers, provide support systems to needy people (Sally Army soup kitchens for example) and no doubt other good things.

I'm atheist as the next (well perhaps not as much as some posting here) but I do believe religion has good among the rubbish.

One friend is a Buddhist, goes on retreats and all that. She's a follower of a certain guru I think she said who basically quite modern and westernized. My friend got told by a Buddhist monk at a retreat to take and believe in the parts of Buddhism she wants to. For example if reincarnation a bit of a stretch for you then ignore that bit. It gives her comfort to believe in the parts of her religion and IMHO there's nothing wrong with that. I also apply that to any religion, I reckon most Christians don't believe most of Christian doctrine but take what they want from it. Some go too far with creationism but I bet most don't believe in that.

pblakeney

Tangled Metal wrote:

One friend is a Buddhist, goes on retreats and all that. She's a follower of a certain guru I think she said who basically quite modern and westernized. My friend got told by a Buddhist monk at a retreat to take and believe in the parts of Buddhism she wants to. For example if reincarnation a bit of a stretch for you then ignore that bit. It gives her comfort to believe in the parts of her religion and IMHO there's nothing wrong with that. I also apply that to any religion, I reckon most Christians don't believe most of Christian doctrine but take what they want from it. Some go too far with creationism but I bet most don't believe in that.

Can I pick the part where I can do whatever on Earth I like, as long as I repent at the end?
Works for me.

tangled_metal

PBlakeney wrote:

Can I pick the part where I can do whatever on Earth I like, as long as I repent at the end?
Works for me.

You're a grown up, do what you like that the laws allow. Even believe in creationism if that's your thing. Free to do so. Pick the best things from all religions and Atheism too. At the end of the day your life your choice.

Choice. Everyone has a choice in what they believe in. If someone chooses to believe in God what's that to you? If they leave you to your choice that is. There seems to me a kind of atheist campaign here to ridicule religion/the religious and try to convert them away from their choice. I have no problem with discussion but offence is a very fine line with religion and those who practise religion. If we're not careful I get the impression this thread could deteriorate into offence towards followers of religion and especially the Christian religion.

What is wrong with letting the deluded believe in what they want to? I find proselytizing atheists as bad as proselytizing Christians. It's always going to be a conflict between those believing in their right to express their view to everyone with those who believe in their right to not have other's views thrust on them.

pblakeney

Tangled Metal wrote:

Choice. Everyone has a choice in what they believe in. If someone chooses to believe in God what's that to you? If they leave you to your choice that is.

That is the issue right there, in 3 sentences.
The important one being the third.

rick_chasey

Chris Bass wrote:

Does anyone actually know a religious person? celebrities and from the news don't count!

why or how are they bad?

Used to go to school with kid from a jevoah's witness family.

He got into a bad accident in a car and the parents wouldn't let him be operated on since that would involve transferring of blood.

Don't know what happened to him.

bianchimoon

Tangled Metal wrote:

PBlakeney wrote:

I find proselytizing atheists as bad as proselytizing Christians. It's always going to be a conflict between those believing in their right to express their view to everyone with those who believe in their right to not have other's views thrust on them.

If people didn't speak up and indeed hadn't spoken up or put their opinions forward such as Harris, Dennett, Hitchins and the infamous Dawkins in the past, then the status quo in favour of the church would have remained. Long live Logic, reason, free speech, proselytising or whatever name you wish to give it.

surrey_commuter

I worked with the bloke who set up a godless church. It looks like a p1ss take but his idea was that he enjoyed the non-religious aspects of church. ie the singinging, morality tales and community spirit. It has proved to be amazingly popular
https://www.sundayassembly.com/

bobmcstuff

Rick Chasey wrote:

Chris Bass wrote:

Does anyone actually know a religious person? celebrities and from the news don't count!

why or how are they bad?

Used to go to school with kid from a jevoah's witness family.

He got into a bad accident in a car and the parents wouldn't let him be operated on since that would involve transferring of blood.

Don't know what happened to him.

My dad's side of the family (excluding my dad fortunately) are Jehovah's witnesses, that lot are mental. My gran nearly died because they won't take blood transfusions. Remember having an argument with my uncle when I was about ten because he was trying to tell me that the dinosaurs died in Noah's flood :roll: (I have limited patience for young earth creationists in general because it's moronic).

They've also predicted the end of the world 3 times so far. I was confused as to why anyone in the church still takes them seriously after that but I spoke to someone in the church a while back and apparently after the (non)event they start making out that the person/people who made the prediction weren't really part of the gang.

In my opinion that's where religion crosses from being a harmless anachronism to dangerously retarded.

surrey_commuter

PBlakeney wrote:

Tangled Metal wrote:

Choice. Everyone has a choice in what they believe in. If someone chooses to believe in God what's that to you? If they leave you to your choice that is.

That is the issue right there, in 3 sentences.
The important one being the third.

Strangely that is 4 sentences

but it is a good basis for a forum mission statement on religion

If someone chooses to believe in God, and they leave you to your choice, what is that to you?

bobmcstuff

Oh in terms of actual religious people I know the guy I sit next to is the chairman of the synagogue here, one of my other colleagues is a lay preacher for some tiny Christian denomination and a good friend of mine is protestant.

The Jewish guy I'm sure does it more out of heritage and community spirit than anything else because I have heard him call some of the ceremonies superstitious nonsense before (he got some of those reeds they use for one of the ceremonies delivered to the office and he was telling me how they represent your lungs. I was sceptical).

With my protestant friend it doesn't really matter except sometimes he can't go cycling on Sundays and he's getting married quite young because his misses' family is super religious and they want to move in together (and presumably he wants to get his end away, although I've never asked about that sort of detail).

It all seems a bit silly to me.

metronome

Yes but it's the news minutes, newspaper columns, importance, validity and media coverage that religion receives which is antagonistic. How such nonsense can be pushed in your face on a daily basis and presented as credible is insulting and offensive to a rational thinking person. Atheism is simply the answer to an unwanted question.

pblakeney

metronome wrote:

PBlakeney wrote:

I find proselytizing atheists as bad as proselytizing Christians. It's always going to be a conflict between those believing in their right to express their view to everyone with those who believe in their right to not have other's views thrust on them.

Yes but it's the news minutes, newspaper columns, importance, validity and media coverage that religion receives which is antagonistic. How such nonsense can be pushed in your face on a daily basis and presented as credible is insulting and offensive to a rational thinking person. Atheism is simply the answer to an unwanted question.

OI! Watch the quotes.
Re the 4 sentences above, quite correct. The first one can be ignored though.

peterbob

bobmcstuff wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

Chris Bass wrote:

Does anyone actually know a religious person? celebrities and from the news don't count!

why or how are they bad?

Used to go to school with kid from a jevoah's witness family.

He got into a bad accident in a car and the parents wouldn't let him be operated on since that would involve transferring of blood.

Don't know what happened to him.

My dad's side of the family (excluding my dad fortunately) are Jehovah's witnesses, that lot are mental. My gran nearly died because they won't take blood transfusions. Remember having an argument with my uncle when I was about ten because he was trying to tell me that the dinosaurs died in Noah's flood :roll: (I have limited patience for young earth creationists in general because it's moronic).

They've also predicted the end of the world 3 times so far. I was confused as to why anyone in the church still takes them seriously after that but I spoke to someone in the church a while back and apparently after the (non)event they start making out that the person/people who made the prediction weren't really part of the gang.

In my opinion that's where religion crosses from being a harmless anachronism to dangerously retarded.

You used the words moronic and retarded.
Religious beliefs are capable of being within mental illness criteria such as this one for example,
(1) Hallucinations - the person has invisible friends who (s)he insists are real, and to whom (s)he speaks daily, even though nobody can actually see or hear these friends .
The line has to be drawn somewhere.

singleton

I'm a christian and my beliefs are a very important part of my life.
I haven't always been a christian and so I can understand that to other people this may seem a bit wierd or strange, but not to me - perhaps not surprisingly.
I'm prepared to admit that I can't actually see God, but I do believe that I see the impact and affect that he has on my life and the life of others around me.
Equally I admit that I can't actually see gravity or love but I know they are there because I can see the impact and affect that they have on my life and the life of others around me.

I'm not here to try to convert anyone on this forum, I'm here because I like riding bikes. Equally, I'm not ashamed of my beliefs and they are a part of what makes me who I am.

orraloon

Singleton wrote:

I'm a christian and my beliefs are a very important part of my life.
I haven't always been a christian and so I can understand that to other people this may seem a bit wierd or strange, but not to me - perhaps not surprisingly.
I'm prepared to admit that I can't actually see God, but I do believe that I see the impact and affect that he has on my life and the life of others around me.
Equally I admit that I can't actually see gravity or love but I know they are there because I can see the impact and affect that they have on my life and the life of others around me.

I'm not here to try to convert anyone on this forum, I'm here because I like riding bikes. Equally, I'm not ashamed of my beliefs and they are a part of what makes me who I am.

Fair play to you. I respect your views and your right to hold them. If you gain benefit through your belief that's all good.

When believers (generic term here, not addressing you specifically) move beyond the personal space into trying to impose their values and belief system onto others, whether by force, marketing or stealth, then that becomes a problem.

tangled_metal

What if atheists poke fun and ridicule those who believe in a religion? Is that the opposite side of the coin to evangelist Christians? At least in part believe that to be true. Respect the rights to believe or not. I'm not sure some on here respect the right to.believe but demand their rights to not believe in a potentially disrespectful and possibly abusive way at times. I got pulled up by my dad (lapsed Catholic) when I made a comment I felt justified in light of child abuse by Catholic priest and the cover.up. He corrected me angrily as I was, in.hindsight being offensive about it. That got me thinking and I'm sensitive to feelings over religion since.

ballysmate

At which point do you draw the line and say that a particular religion is off limits for mockery? Scientology? Jediism? Religion is ripe for parody and mockery.
As regards your conversation with your dad re the Catholic child abuse, there are Catholics who are more offended by the, to my mind, justified attacks on their religion than the abuse condoned by it.

bianchimoon

Tangled Metal wrote:

What if atheists poke fun and ridicule those who believe in a religion? Is that the opposite side of the coin to evangelist Christians? At least in part believe that to be true. Respect the rights to believe or not. I'm not sure some on here respect the right to.believe but demand their rights to not believe in a potentially disrespectful and possibly abusive way at times. I got pulled up by my dad (lapsed Catholic) when I made a comment I felt justified in light of child abuse by Catholic priest and the cover.up. He corrected me angrily as I was, in.hindsight being offensive about it. That got me thinking and I'm sensitive to feelings over religion since.

I think the argument is the way religion has a disproportionate impact on secular life caused not by a supernatural being or entity but by humans that practice it, not the individual believer in a supernatural being/entity itself.

slowbike

Singleton wrote:

I'm prepared to admit that I can't actually see God, but I do believe that I see the impact and affect that he has on my life and the life of others around me.

You can see the impact and effect of a belief in God - which is quite different to there actually being a God - you could liken that to the impact and effect on a child who believes they'll be punished if they were to get up to mischeif - the punishment doesn't have to exist.

Singleton wrote:

Equally I admit that I can't actually see gravity or love but I know they are there because I can see the impact and affect that they have on my life and the life of others around me.

But Gravity does have a physicalilty and Love is based on emotions - the love you may have for your partner & family are there because of a physicality. You may Love to ride your bike - that's a physical thing too.

Singleton wrote:

I'm not here to try to convert anyone on this forum, I'm here because I like riding bikes. Equally, I'm not ashamed of my beliefs and they are a part of what makes me who I am.

I'm not trying to de-convert you - only suggest you continually question your belief.

Like many on here, I was brought up as a Christian and whilst I haven't shouted out that I don't believe, I can honestly say I don't. Like others, there are some aspects of the C of E church that I like - and other aspects that I don't. I'd like to believe there was an afterlife - but I just can't comprehend how it could possibly be.
Add to that the numerous different religions around the world and the various interpretations and it all leads back to the probability that the whole "religion" thing is made up with the origins lost in time.

singleton

Slowbike wrote:

you could liken that to the impact and effect on a child who believes they'll be punished if they were to get up to mischeif - the punishment doesn't have to exist.

Do you have children? If so you'd know that if the punishment didn't exist, then the children will quickly work that out and start to misbehave because they know there is no consequence.

Slowbike wrote:

I'm not trying to de-convert you - only suggest you continually question your belief.

I will if you will .
In fact I am constantly watching TV shows and reading articles that are created and written by non-chritians and so they continually challenge what I believe.
Are you still reading the bible?

orraloon

Singleton wrote:

Are you still reading the bible?

How do you view The Bible? Genuine question here, not trying to point score.

Upthread I mentioned my dad was a CoS presbyterian minister and I know from discussions with him his view as a practicing church leader.

singleton

orraloon wrote:

Singleton wrote:

Are you still reading the bible?

How do you view The Bible? Genuine question here, not trying to point score.

Upthread I mentioned my dad was a CoS presbyterian minister and I know from discussions with him his view as a practicing church leader.

If there is a God then it would really help if he were to somehow tell us what he wants us to know and what he wants us to do.
I believe that there is a God and the bible is his way of doing exactly this.

slowbike

Singleton wrote:

Slowbike wrote:

you could liken that to the impact and effect on a child who believes they'll be punished if they were to get up to mischeif - the punishment doesn't have to exist.

Do you have children? If so you'd know that if the punishment didn't exist, then the children will quickly work that out and start to misbehave because they know there is no consequence.

Yes - but at 8 months he's a bit young to remember the punishment - which is a stern "No" at the moment ... we're (trying to) use it sparingly
However, we've got nieces and nephew who are a bit older - and they've been told (in the past) that Father Christmas won't visit unless they behave etc etc ... Of course, FC doesn't exist so the punishment is only make believe and nobody wants an upset child on Christmas day - so the punishment is never carried out....

Singleton wrote:

Slowbike wrote:

I'm not trying to de-convert you - only suggest you continually question your belief.

I will if you will .
In fact I am constantly watching TV shows and reading articles that are created and written by non-chritians and so they continually challenge what I believe.
Are you still reading the bible?

I'm probably watching TV shows and articles that are created by christians and people from other faiths - it's rarely about religion though.
No, I don't read the bible - do you read the koran?

The more I hear from believers about why the believe the more I'm convinced that their faith is fundementally flawed. However, I do remain open to the possibility that there is/are "higher beings" - but we are just not aware of their existence (yet) - who's to say that our universe is nothing more than what we would consider a cell in another living organism living in their own space ...

slowbike

Singleton wrote:

If there is a God then it would really help if he were to somehow tell us what he wants us to know and what he wants us to do.
I believe that there is a God and the bible is his way of doing exactly this.

What about the different versions of the bible ... ? Christians fight amoungst each other as to who is right ...


What about Jews?
What about Muslims?
What about Hindus?

and finally - Buddhists?
That's just the 5 major religions covered ...

Not everyone is "right" - so who is to say anyone is right?

Sorry for singling you out - and don't feel you have to answer the above - or the following ...

Why did you pick Christianity? Why not one of the other faiths?

bianchimoon

Singleton wrote:

orraloon wrote:

Singleton wrote:

Are you still reading the bible?

I believe that there is a God and the bible is his way of doing exactly this.

you do realise that your religion is dependent on where you were born? If you had been born 5,000 miles south east you would be worshipping another god and reading a different book.