Church

joelsim

Pross wrote:

Joelsim wrote:

So, are we now saying that kids don't pray at school? Or sing hymns ever? And don't have a focus on a virgin birth at Christmas?

I don't know but I think they learn to read. I asked where these schools are that apparently teach creationism. My own experience from 12 years in a church school environment suggests otherwise.

I'm not talking about anything as blatantly ridiculous as creationism, a 2 year old could see through that argument.

Prayers...saying The Lord's Prayer...that is bad enough as it promotes religion as being the done thing and as acceptable. Which it isn't.

Religion should be removed from the majority of schools, and if parents decide they want their kid to go to a designated faith school on their head be it. As a matter of course though, schools should be devoid of religious indoctrination, although obviously culture/history should teach what has really happened in this realm - perhaps with the emphasis on division.

finchy

In a 2012 survey, 69% of the British adult population believed in evolution. 17% believed that God created humans in their current form and the remainder were unsure.

So religions evidently do still have some sway over the way people think, because there's no way that the scientific evidence should lead to 31% of people either rejecting evolution or being unsure about it.

finchy

Pross wrote:

Was that a school policy or a single maverick teacher though?

No idea, but his parents are as thick as two short planks, so they wouldn't have brought it up with the school. They're more likely to have nodded, smiled and then switched their thoughts to more important matters, such as remembering to breathe.

joelsim

My son is 8. He believes in god, the tooth fairy and father christmas.

He also knows I don't believe in god. I haven't mentioned the others.

That is brought about by school, a (supposedly) non-faith school I may add.

I have to say that by the age of 8 I would happily have ripped a bible to bits, and I haven't touched one at all since I left school.

I was forced to do RE at school until the end of the third form. 6% in the exam as I didn't listen to a word the teacher said. Fared fine in everything else and have A-Levels in Maths, Physics, Psychology and a BA too. RE was a total no-no, utter BS.

chris_bass

your son is 8 and believes in the tooth fairy?! blimey! I'd say he'll forget about god when he stops believing in other fairies!

why don't you teach him that god is not real? it shouldn't be all down to the teachers. If you look at how many under 18s go to church these days i don't think that schools are exactly pushing it onto them!

joelsim

Chris Bass wrote:

your son is 8 and believes in the tooth fairy?! blimey! I'd say he'll forget about god when he stops believing in other fairies!

why don't you teach him that god is not real? it shouldn't be all down to the teachers. If you look at how many under 18s go to church these days i don't think that schools are exactly pushing it onto them!

Yep he is as naive as they come, and I'm not one to sh*t on his fireworks about FC and TF.

Bless him (so to speak).

Think is he is very intelligent, but so not streetwise.

Anyway, not for me to tell him, he can make up his own mind. As stated I've told him that I don't believe and have left it there. I don't force my views on my boys, they are perfectly capable of coming to their own conclusions, Thomas just guffawed when I told him and said his mum had told him. (Probably a guffaw in the sense of I'm a fool for not believing...going back to school indoctrination).

pblakeney

Pross wrote:

Not really, science proves elements of this but there is still an element of scientific theory that people are spending billions frantically trying to prove without any real progress. Somewhere along the way though something was created out of nothing even if it was just a couple of atoms that subsequently bumped into each other and created the universe. Hence nothing making logical sense to me, probably because I'm too thick to understand the theoretical science.

There is the rub.
Scientists trying to prove how something came from nothing when science says it is impossible.

metronome

Pross wrote:

I don't know but I think they learn to read. I asked where these schools are that apparently teach creationism. My own experience from 12 years in a church school environment suggests otherwise.

I think creationism is taught in faith schools. Apparently there's a hundred or so. Funded by government and probably private sources.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/ed ... hreat.html

turbotommy

I think there's a major place for religious study in school. It's so heavily intertwined with the forming of the modern world, nation building, and culture forming. I think it should be taught In this context however rather than being pushed by any one respective religion.

Having said that my ideal scenario is a big one time fight off to the death to settle things once and for all. Every religion gets to pick one representative!

Fight! Fight! Fight!

"... Oh look out! Abu "the hook man" hamza has just gouged out the popes eyes from the top rope! But here comes the arch bishop of Canterbury and he's dealing with Tom cruise, prison shower block style... And here come Madonna, it's Tuesday so she must be representing Buddhism... It's a fairly close fight so far. Hang on... This could be trouble for everyone else...Here come luke skywalker with a light sabre...

Game over.

city_boy

PBlakeney wrote:

There is the rub.
Scientists trying to prove how something came from nothing when science says it is impossible.

Not necessarily. Some scientists say it's possible to get something from nothing, although you have to consider what 'nothing' actually is from a cosmological/quantum perspective.

If you're interested, A Universe from Nothing by Lawrence Kraus is a fascinating read. Some of the quantum mechanics stuff is way beyond my meagre comprehension but the main thrust of the book kind of makes sense and is, if nothing else, very thought provoking.

socrates

Not a church attendee. However if the Church is right with the bible and it's teachings, and we will not know for sure until we die then a lot of people are in deep trouble including all of those above. Just thinking out loud. Not taking sides, well maybe I am hedging my bets.

Lookyhere

Pross wrote:

bianchimoon wrote:

Even today I can't go shopping at 5pm on a Sunday due to religion.

Excluding the religious influence, is this really a bad thing? Arguably a Sunday was far nicer before Sunday trading was allowed and whilst it's sometimes convenient to get to the shops on a Sunday I can't help thinking countries like Austria have it right in maintaining a day of leisure. It's made organising bike races harder too!

I'd love to go back to having sunday as a day of rest etc, the UK was a far nicer place, roads were quieter, families had time together and very small shops/petrol stations were always open for those that had to work 24/7.
People need a break and euro countries with higher productivity than us and lower mental health issues, manage perfectly well with strict sunday trading rules, more trading on a sunday is about making profit out of us and not for our benefit.

Strange that the very party that has always espoused Family Values did more to damage these values than any thing else by allowing Sunday trading.

As for schools indoctrinating kids with Christian values etc... where? state schools follow very strict time tables and teach kids about all religions and belief systems inc atheism.

pblakeney

City Boy wrote:

PBlakeney wrote:

There is the rub.
Scientists trying to prove how something came from nothing when science says it is impossible.

Not necessarily. Some scientists say it's possible to get something from nothing, although you have to consider what 'nothing' actually is from a cosmological/quantum perspective.

If you're interested, A Universe from Nothing by Lawrence Kraus is a fascinating read. Some of the quantum mechanics stuff is way beyond my meagre comprehension but the main thrust of the book kind of makes sense and is, if nothing else, very thought provoking.

Ah, but where did the particle-antiparticle pairs come from?

city_boy

PBlakeney wrote:

City Boy wrote:

PBlakeney wrote:

There is the rub.
Scientists trying to prove how something came from nothing when science says it is impossible.

Not necessarily. Some scientists say it's possible to get something from nothing, although you have to consider what 'nothing' actually is from a cosmological/quantum perspective.

If you're interested, A Universe from Nothing by Lawrence Kraus is a fascinating read. Some of the quantum mechanics stuff is way beyond my meagre comprehension but the main thrust of the book kind of makes sense and is, if nothing else, very thought provoking.

Ah, but where did the particle-antiparticle pairs come from?

From 'nowhere', obviously!

Stevo_666

Lookyhere wrote:

Pross wrote:

bianchimoon wrote:

Even today I can't go shopping at 5pm on a Sunday due to religion.

Excluding the religious influence, is this really a bad thing? Arguably a Sunday was far nicer before Sunday trading was allowed and whilst it's sometimes convenient to get to the shops on a Sunday I can't help thinking countries like Austria have it right in maintaining a day of leisure. It's made organising bike races harder too!

I'd love to go back to having sunday as a day of rest etc, the UK was a far nicer place, roads were quieter, families had time together and very small shops/petrol stations were always open for those that had to work 24/7.
People need a break and euro countries with higher productivity than us and lower mental health issues, manage perfectly well with strict sunday trading rules, more trading on a sunday is about making profit out of us and not for our benefit.

Strange that the very party that has always espoused Family Values did more to damage these values than any thing else by allowing Sunday trading.

As for schools indoctrinating kids with Christian values etc... where? state schools follow very strict time tables and teach kids about all religions and belief systems inc atheism.

Odd that, companies wanting to make a profit from their customers :roll: . I am not worried if they make that profit from me on a Sunday rather than another day of the week. But it is inconvenient if I can't go to the shop on one of the two days a week that I have off.

Most people do get days of rest but why should everyone have the same day? In particular as that seems to have been originally determined by an institution that seems to be on the fringes these days (going back to the subject of this thread).

Lookyhere

Stevo 666 wrote:

Most people do get days of rest but why should everyone have the same day? In particular as that seems to have been originally determined by an institution that seems to be on the fringes these days (going back to the subject of this thread).

well, from a family pov it needs to be the same day doesnt it?

one of the things that struck me living in Europe was how family orientated they often are, Sundays in many euro countries is a day of rest, for the employee and for family bonding, we seem to have gone away from that, do you think that is good for society?
So, in france, lorry transport curtailed, super markets shut or close at 12, as i said, they have higher productivity than uk who work some of the longest hrs in europe.

Just because the Church is in decline doesnt mean everything about it is wrong.

motogull

Loads of senior poiticians play the religious card. Not all are god-bothers surely?

The Iraq business started when Blair said 'I believe god will say, fair enough matey' whereas Dubya said 'god told me to do it'.

Remind me, how much of the world's silliness is my-god-is-better-than-yours related?

tangled_metal

So Sunday trading laws has a link to productivity and mental health?

surrey_commuter

Pross wrote:

Surrey Commuter wrote:

Pross wrote:

bianchimoon wrote:

Education, Creationism is still taught in dozens of faith schools despite Government threats to withdraw their funding

The only real difference was whether the origin of the universe was an act of god or accident of nature and to be honest even now neither side makes any logical sense to me.

That is a pretty fundamental difference, at the core of which is whether you believe in science or a higher being. I

Not really, science proves elements of this but there is still an element of scientific theory that people are spending billions frantically trying to prove without any real progress. Somewhere along the way though something was created out of nothing even if it was just a couple of atoms that subsequently bumped into each other and created the universe. Hence nothing making logical sense to me, probably because I'm too thick to understand the theoretical science.

It is a big leap from "nothing making logical sense" to believing that an all powerful entity created the whole lot in 6 days a mere 10,000 years ago

joelsim

Tangled Metal wrote:

So Sunday trading laws has a link to productivity and mental health?

The church trades on a Sunday.

Surely spending a couple of hours at Sainsburys is time better spent than singing and praying about something that doesn't exist?

I had to go to a friend's kid's christening last year, to be honest I couldn't believe what I was hearing from the bloke at the front, utter grollocks. I left the church open-mouthed with incomprehension that people actually believe this rubbish.

I find it very difficult to take anyone who believes in a god seriously these days, where is this disconnect in their minds coming from? He doesn't exist, never has, never will.

Lookyhere

Tangled Metal wrote:

So Sunday trading laws has a link to productivity and mental health?

Pi$$ed off workers not seeing family, working for no extra pay, dont make for happy campers, long term, who knows what this causes?
its not just shop staff that have to work 24/7 to feed our desire to shop 7 days a week, its all the support industries and producers etc that do theses hours too.

Stevo_666

Lookyhere wrote:

Stevo 666 wrote:

Most people do get days of rest but why should everyone have the same day? In particular as that seems to have been originally determined by an institution that seems to be on the fringes these days (going back to the subject of this thread).

well, from a family pov it needs to be the same day doesnt it?

one of the things that struck me living in Europe was how family orientated they often are, Sundays in many euro countries is a day of rest, for the employee and for family bonding, we seem to have gone away from that, do you think that is good for society?
So, in france, lorry transport curtailed, super markets shut or close at 12, as i said, they have higher productivity than uk who work some of the longest hrs in europe.

Just because the Church is in decline doesnt mean everything about it is wrong.

If it's that good in Europe compared to here, go live there again while we still have free movement of people Although given the number of people who want to come to the UK to work, we might be forgiven for thinking this isnt quite as big an issue as you make out.

Seems to me most people over here get a reasonable amount of time off at the same time given the Monday to Friday working norm for the majority of people. Not been an issue for most people I know.

joelsim

Moving on from modern society working hours, why aren't the heads of the church held in the same regard as other revolting cults such as Scientology or the KKK?

It's all brainwashing and indoctrination, using beliefs to justify divisive attitudes, the promotion of hatred and intolerance...

ballysmate

Creationists ask who or what created the 'Big Bang' They are uncomfortable with something created from nothing. Paradoxically, they are happy with a supreme being of some sort being created from nowt.

joelsim

Ballysmate wrote:

Creationists ask who or what created the 'Big Bang' They are uncomfortable with something created from nothing. Paradoxically, they are happy with a supreme being of some sort being created from nowt.

That's magic for you.

I'd rather put my money on it being something to do with sunlight.

tangled_metal

Such hatred towards religion Joel. Are you no better than the religious? What is the difference between the hatred some Atheists hold against religion or their followers and the hatred that Atheists attribute to the religious?

Personally I haven't felt indoctrinated despite my school having Christian assemblies (probably 20-30% non-Christian pupils). It was once a church school, way back in the 1500s, so perhaps those assemblies were a remnant of its history. It was all about the education and turning it's kids into fully rounded adults. RE classes taught us about all religions equally and TBH was about being critical towards them all equally.

The whole indoctrination argument is a lazy argument. Just as lazy as people putting CodE on their census because they kind of believe in something like a God. As for the church dying, I seriously doubt major religion will die out, at most it will evolve into something else. Kind of like Judaism into Christianity. Indeed Islam too. Belief has undoubtedly changed greatly through human existence. That hasn't stopped belief being around. Belief in something is religion. Yours is Atheism joelsim. You're just fighting over which belief is right or better. Same old thing. It's what the crusades were about at least in part.

finchy

Just to clear something up - Big Bang theory does not suggest that something came out of nothing. It suggests that matter as we know it came out of a singularity - a point of infinite density and temperature.

ballysmate

finchy wrote:

Just to clear something up - Big Bang theory does not suggest that something came out of nothing. It suggests that matter as we know it came out of a singularity - a point of infinite density and temperature.

Creationist eventually come down to asking,'Who created the singularity?' and finally come down to something being created from nothing. They can't accept that matter, be it beyond an impenetrable singularity, can have existed without the hand of a creator. They are happy to believe that a creator can have existed for ever without being created himself.

finchy

I know that creationists won't accept that, but it's at least good to have an answer to come back with and expose their ignorance when they make the initial claim that BBT rests on something coming from nothing.

ballysmate

Joelsim wrote:

Moving on from modern society working hours, why aren't the heads of the church held in the same regard as other revolting cults such as Scientology or the KKK?

It's all brainwashing and indoctrination, using beliefs to justify divisive attitudes, the promotion of hatred and intolerance...

The argument that grips my sh1t is ...'but look at all the good the church does' as if you have to be a believer to be kind to your fellow man.

The deity of your choice was moved to tears!!