Church

joelsim

So, 18 out of every thousand people go to church. Expected to halve in the next 30 years.

Which I think is optimistic, I would suggest that churchgoing will be almost zero by then.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/ch ... 81641.html

Good news. The sooner this ridiculous organisation is treated with the contempt it deserves the better.

finchy

Lead roofs, thick stone walls - they'd make really handy nuclear fallout shelters if they had enough food supplies.

joelsim

True. And some of the churches are really quite pretty too.

Just full of deluded people.

chris_bass

whilst i am 100% atheist (not the militant type, if people want to believe in stuff i'm not going to say they shouldn't as long as it doesn't negatively impact others) I don't see much harm in the church of England these days. They are relaxed on gay marriage, women, don't go round persecuting others these days. When me Grandad died my grandma started going back to church and it helped with the loss and loneliness.

I do agree it will slowly fizzle out but what's the harm really?

pblakeney

Church.
They make good shoes.

mr_goo

The C of E are pretty much impotent in their influence on modern society. As one other has said, they have had to adapt and be accepting. Unlike other religions.

I love the architecture of the churches, especially Salisbury Cathedral (build by the Catholics). Every stone hand cut and fits perfectly. An amazing feat of engineering considering when it was built (1220-1320)

bianchimoon

Chris Bass wrote:

whilst i am 100% atheist (not the militant type, if people want to believe in stuff i'm not going to say they shouldn't as long as it doesn't negatively impact others) I don't see much harm in the church of England these days. They are relaxed on gay marriage, women, don't go round persecuting others these days. When me Grandad died my grandma started going back to church and it helped with the loss and loneliness.

I do agree it will slowly fizzle out but what's the harm really?

for a start 26 bishops in the house of Lords having an influence on politics based on their religion!, that's before you start on schools, indoctrination of children etc. so many reasons there's harm in it. If the stuck to comforting old folk and keep out of matters of science, genetics, education, contraception, protecting their own in matters of child abuse etc. then I'd agree with you

joelsim

bianchimoon wrote:

Chris Bass wrote:

whilst i am 100% atheist (not the militant type, if people want to believe in stuff i'm not going to say they shouldn't as long as it doesn't negatively impact others) I don't see much harm in the church of England these days. They are relaxed on gay marriage, women, don't go round persecuting others these days. When me Grandad died my grandma started going back to church and it helped with the loss and loneliness.

I do agree it will slowly fizzle out but what's the harm really?

for a start 26 bishops in the house of Lords having an influence on politics based on their religion!, that's before you start on schools, indoctrination of children etc. so many reasons there's harm in it. If the stuck to comforting old folk and keep out of matters of science, genetics, education, contraception, protecting their own in matters of child abuse etc. then I'd agree with you

^This.

forehead

Mr Goo wrote:

The C of E are pretty much impotent in their influence on modern society. As one other has said, they have had to adapt and be accepting. Unlike other religions.

I love the architecture of the churches, especially Salisbury Cathedral (build by the Catholics). Every stone hand cut and fits perfectly. An amazing feat of engineering considering when it was built (1220-1320)

A schedule like that would never get signed off these days.

Stevo_666

Forehead wrote:

Mr Goo wrote:

The C of E are pretty much impotent in their influence on modern society. As one other has said, they have had to adapt and be accepting. Unlike other religions.

I love the architecture of the churches, especially Salisbury Cathedral (build by the Catholics). Every stone hand cut and fits perfectly. An amazing feat of engineering considering when it was built (1220-1320)

A schedule like that would never get signed off these days.

The Sagrada Familia in Barcelona has already outdone that.

Religion has been embedded in society for a long time so it will take time to fade away. But fade away it will.

chris_bass

bianchimoon wrote:

Chris Bass wrote:

whilst i am 100% atheist (not the militant type, if people want to believe in stuff i'm not going to say they shouldn't as long as it doesn't negatively impact others) I don't see much harm in the church of England these days. They are relaxed on gay marriage, women, don't go round persecuting others these days. When me Grandad died my grandma started going back to church and it helped with the loss and loneliness.

I do agree it will slowly fizzle out but what's the harm really?

for a start 26 bishops in the house of Lords having an influence on politics based on their religion!, that's before you start on schools, indoctrination of children etc. so many reasons there's harm in it. If the stuck to comforting old folk and keep out of matters of science, genetics, education, contraception, protecting their own in matters of child abuse etc. then I'd agree with you

26 out of almost 800! huge influence! When did you go to school? religion had zero influence on my school (95 to 02) and I can only assume it hasn't become a hot bed of Christian recruitment since then.

How has science, genetics or education been held back in recent times because of the existence of the church of England?

Contraception is more a catholic thing and I am 100% against their stance on it especially in poorer countries.

Child abuse, is there a group of people these days that don't have their own child abuse or sex scandal?

i'm not saying they are great and, as I said, I do not believe in any god or religion but i think if people find it helpful, why not let them go to church? what harm do they really do these days?

bianchimoon

if you were terminally ill and wanted the right to an assisted death in your own house in your own country - religion

bianchimoon

Education, Creationism is still taught in dozens of faith schools despite Government threats to withdraw their funding

bianchimoon

You seem to be narrowing down religion to your own grandparents experience at their particular time of need. that's fair enough, religion is only as benign as it is in the UK because people of reason fought against the influence of the church. That is the reason you can say what harm does it do. Not because the church has decided to relax the influences it used to have. Even today I can't go shopping at 5pm on a Sunday due to religion.

metronome

Chris Bass wrote:

i'm not saying they are great and, as I said, I do not believe in any god or religion but i think if people find it helpful, why not let them go to church? what harm do they really do these days?

They indoctrinate and manipulate childrens' minds in to believing their mumbo jumbo. It's an evil vicious cycle.

chris_bass

I'm not saying the church hasn't been responsible for some terrible things in the past but in it's current form it has little to no influence on society. Does anyone know any children who are religious of their own accord? so if the church didn't exist they would still get the same world view from their parents anyway.

bianchimoon

Chris Bass wrote:

I'm not saying the church hasn't been responsible for some terrible things in the past but in it's current form it has little to no influence on society. Does anyone know any children who are religious of their own accord? so if the church didn't exist they would still get the same world view from their parents anyway.

I refer you back to the posts above re: little or no influence on society.
As for "Does anyone know any children who are religious of their own accord", that would be an impossibility if they weren't indoctrinated. Children, until they can think for themselves believe what they are told. Sometimes they carry the indoctrination for a lifetime for example the new presenter of BBC breakfast time. Although not nessarily, I think triple jumper Jonathan Edwards decided in the last few years he didn't believe any more after years of not competing on a Sunday due to the religious beliefs of his strictly religious family

eric_draven

Forehead wrote:

Mr Goo wrote:

The C of E are pretty much impotent in their influence on modern society. As one other has said, they have had to adapt and be accepting. Unlike other religions.

I love the architecture of the churches, especially Salisbury Cathedral (build by the Catholics). Every stone hand cut and fits perfectly. An amazing feat of engineering considering when it was built (1220-1320)

A schedule like that would never get signed off these days.

Even if it did get signed off i don't think they would find enough skilled people to build one,you only have to see the Mickey Mouse apprenticeships now,to see why there is a serious shortage of proper tradesmen,and may only God would know how much would get swindled through back handers

orraloon

bianchimoon wrote:

Even today I can't go shopping at 5pm on a Sunday due to religion.

Can in Scotland.

Although I did hear Trumpy Boy called the Scots Mexican Muslims or somesuch after his recent legal adversity there.

chris_bass

bianchimoon wrote:

Chris Bass wrote:

I'm not saying the church hasn't been responsible for some terrible things in the past but in it's current form it has little to no influence on society. Does anyone know any children who are religious of their own accord? so if the church didn't exist they would still get the same world view from their parents anyway.

I refer you back to the posts above re: little or no influence on society.

I can't think of anyway the church impacts my daily life. you say you can't go shopping past 5pm on a Sunday. If the church had their way you wouldn't be able to go shopping at all on a Sunday. During the Olympics the Sunday trading laws were relaxed and almost all smaller stores are open until much later. Hardly ruling with an iron fist are they.

I say let people do or say what they think as long as it is not to the detriment of others.

Even the pope has said contraception is ok in places where the Zika virus has sprung up, so even he is relaxing his stance on such things.

Pross

bianchimoon wrote:

Education, Creationism is still taught in dozens of faith schools despite Government threats to withdraw their funding

I read this regularly. What schools exactly teach this? I spent my whole school life in Catholic schools and evolution was taught as fact. The only real difference was whether the origin of the universe was an act of god or accident of nature and to be honest even now neither side makes any logical sense to me.

Pross

bianchimoon wrote:

Even today I can't go shopping at 5pm on a Sunday due to religion.

Excluding the religious influence, is this really a bad thing? Arguably a Sunday was far nicer before Sunday trading was allowed and whilst it's sometimes convenient to get to the shops on a Sunday I can't help thinking countries like Austria have it right in maintaining a day of leisure. It's made organising bike races harder too!

Pross

Also, religious belief existed for centuries / millennia before any organised 'church' existed so the argument that if churches ceased to exist there'd be no religious indoctrination any more is fundamentally flawed.

surrey_commuter

Pross wrote:

bianchimoon wrote:

Education, Creationism is still taught in dozens of faith schools despite Government threats to withdraw their funding

The only real difference was whether the origin of the universe was an act of god or accident of nature and to be honest even now neither side makes any logical sense to me.

That is a pretty fundamental difference, at the core of which is whether you believe in science or a higher being. I

joelsim

So, are we now saying that kids don't pray at school? Or sing hymns ever? And don't have a focus on a virgin birth at Christmas?

Those things are all indoctrination, which our friend the Education Secretary has committed to continue.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/educa ... 87951.html

How dare she tell my kids that atheism isn't an option to what is a ridiculous, imaginary, insular, dangerous, misguided, pathetic, out-dated set of views and practices.

If we need to see the effects of religion we need look no further than ISIS or Republican America, both of which harbour abhorrent views on 'outsiders' whether they are just foreign, a different colour, worship a different imaginary friend, don't fit the straight sexual ideal.

Let's bomb everyone who doesn't agree with our revolting Lord.

Frankly the best thing we could all do is make religion an embarrassment, show it up to be what it is, a weird cult.

Pross

Joelsim wrote:

So, are we now saying that kids don't pray at school? Or sing hymns ever? And don't have a focus on a virgin birth at Christmas?

I don't know but I think they learn to read. I asked where these schools are that apparently teach creationism. My own experience from 12 years in a church school environment suggests otherwise.

Pross

Surrey Commuter wrote:

Pross wrote:

bianchimoon wrote:

Education, Creationism is still taught in dozens of faith schools despite Government threats to withdraw their funding

The only real difference was whether the origin of the universe was an act of god or accident of nature and to be honest even now neither side makes any logical sense to me.

That is a pretty fundamental difference, at the core of which is whether you believe in science or a higher being. I

Not really, science proves elements of this but there is still an element of scientific theory that people are spending billions frantically trying to prove without any real progress. Somewhere along the way though something was created out of nothing even if it was just a couple of atoms that subsequently bumped into each other and created the universe. Hence nothing making logical sense to me, probably because I'm too thick to understand the theoretical science.

finchy

Pross wrote:

bianchimoon wrote:

Education, Creationism is still taught in dozens of faith schools despite Government threats to withdraw their funding

I read this regularly. What schools exactly teach this? I spent my whole school life in Catholic schools and evolution was taught as fact. The only real difference was whether the origin of the universe was an act of god or accident of nature and to be honest even now neither side makes any logical sense to me.

My cousin was (in the 1980s) told by his teacher in a Catholic school that evolution is a lie and we were all created by God.

And yes,it was still occurring as late as last year, don't know if the government has finally managed to stamp it out yet.

finchy

Pross wrote:

Not really, science proves elements of this but there is still an element of scientific theory that people are spending billions frantically trying to prove without any real progress.

They aren't trying to prove anything. Science works by testing hypotheses. If the results show that a hypothesis can be believed with a certain level of confidence, it gets accepted.

Our understanding of the universe has increased vastly over the past few decades - from the fact that the expansion is accelerating to the discovery of fundamental particles. All of this adds up to build a better theoretical framework within which we can understand the universe.

Also, a negative result (or any number of negative results) is not a lack of progress - it is the elimination of competing hypotheses and is vital to science.

Pross wrote:

Somewhere along the way though something was created out of nothing even if it was just a couple of atoms that subsequently bumped into each other and created the universe. Hence nothing making logical sense to me, probably because I'm too thick to understand the theoretical science.

Probably not too thick, more that understanding the underlying science requires many, many hours of study.

Pross

finchy wrote:

Pross wrote:

bianchimoon wrote:

Education, Creationism is still taught in dozens of faith schools despite Government threats to withdraw their funding

I read this regularly. What schools exactly teach this? I spent my whole school life in Catholic schools and evolution was taught as fact. The only real difference was whether the origin of the universe was an act of god or accident of nature and to be honest even now neither side makes any logical sense to me.

My cousin was (in the 1980s) told by his teacher in a Catholic school that evolution is a lie and we were all created by God.

And yes,it was still occurring as late as last year, don't know if the government has finally managed to stamp it out yet.

Was that a school policy or a single maverick teacher though? I was never led to believe evolution was anything other than a scientific / historical fact (throughout the late 70s and 80s).

fish156

In the UK, "Church" provides valuable "community" to people without other substantial support.

Given alternative community support, the church would likely wither; Belief possibly isn't the main driver?