Church

joelsim

Tangled Metal wrote:

Such hatred towards religion Joel. Are you no better than the religious? What is the difference between the hatred some Atheists hold against religion or their followers and the hatred that Atheists attribute to the religious?

Personally I haven't felt indoctrinated despite my school having Christian assemblies (probably 20-30% non-Christian pupils). It was once a church school, way back in the 1500s, so perhaps those assemblies were a remnant of its history. It was all about the education and turning it's kids into fully rounded adults. RE classes taught us about all religions equally and TBH was about being critical towards them all equally.

The whole indoctrination argument is a lazy argument. Just as lazy as people putting CodE on their census because they kind of believe in something like a God. As for the church dying, I seriously doubt major religion will die out, at most it will evolve into something else. Kind of like Judaism into Christianity. Indeed Islam too. Belief has undoubtedly changed greatly through human existence. That hasn't stopped belief being around. Belief in something is religion. Yours is Atheism joelsim. You're just fighting over which belief is right or better. Same old thing. It's what the crusades were about at least in part.

Not liking or endorsing something that creates and justifies division is somewhat different than what you've written.

Indoctrination is also not a lazy argument, tiny, impressionable kids are still expected to pray daily and celebrate Jesus at Christmas as if these things are beyond question.

That isn't right. Schools should not promote religion at all as a matter of course. As far as I can see nothing positive has ever come from religion, just war, bloodshed, intolerance and stupidity.

joelsim

Ballysmate wrote:

Joelsim wrote:

Moving on from modern society working hours, why aren't the heads of the church held in the same regard as other revolting cults such as Scientology or the KKK?

It's all brainwashing and indoctrination, using beliefs to justify divisive attitudes, the promotion of hatred and intolerance...

The argument that grips my sh1t is ...'but look at all the good the church does' as if you have to be a believer to be kind to your fellow man.

The deity of your choice was moved to tears!!

^this. Having a good moral compass has absolutely nothing to do with church. In fact, in many cases quite the opposite when you listen to the vile rhetoric of some very powerful people and their legions of supporters. From Cruz to Pacquiau (sp)

ballysmate

I would certainly scrap faith schools.

tangled_metal

Perhaps you're right joelsim but just because you have your views on religion doesn't mean you have a right to lay scorn on those who believe in God and follow a religious doctrine. Hatred is perhaps too strong a word for it but you've posted some comments that could cause offence to people who believe in a religion. It comes across to me that you would like to impose your views on everyone.

What you call indoctrination some might call it bringing your child up right, in the religion they believe in. You say you're all for not forcing atheism on your child. Other than saying you don't believe you seem to be in letting him decide. Laudable approach but just how much influence did your statement of not believing in God have? Have you influenced him to follow your beliefs/views?
I'm quite open in the fact that me and my partner are bringing up an atheist. We make strong efforts to remove religion from his experience. We asked his.nursery to take him into another room when they brought in a Catholic priest and CofE vicar in to talk about Jesus Xmas before last. He was 2 at the time. We made our objections clear and other parents did too. He's been moved to another nursery now.

Indoctrination I don't believe in. Personally religion and atheism should be left to secondary school and taught objectively. However what can you do to stop it? We have two Catholic and one CofE primary schools near us. I don't know where our nearest secular primary school is. Mind you i don't hold that its as strong as indoctrination. If it was then why is the Christian religion and church going dropping off? Same number of Christian schools as before so if they're a hotbed of religious coercion the drop off wouldn't be happening surely?

peterbob

may your god go with you.

BelgianBeerGeek

Hate the sin, not the sinner

bianchimoon

this reminds me of a monty Python sketch, "how has the church affected you or have an influence in this day and age"
Bishops in the House of Lords - well apart from the bishops in the House of Lords
Indoctrination of children- well apart from Indoctrination of children
Protecting child abusers - well apart from protecting child abusers
Contraception issues. - well apart from contraception issues
As for needing a religion or religious based law to make you have a day of rest... decide for yourself!
Religions are an archaic belief system devised in times when control over masses of people was needed, just because the Christian belief system is relatively benign in the western world these days, don't fool yourself, that's not somethings religious leaders gave away out of enlightenment it was purely a survival tactic for their 'gang'

metronome

Tangled Metal wrote:

What you call indoctrination some might call it bringing your child up right, in the religion they believe in.

A well rounded education teaches a child all of the facts and the ability to make rational and logical decisions based on evidence. Radicalising a child to subscribe to only one belief and method of thinking is denying that child of the ability to think for themself.

Would it be fair for me to raise a child who believes that our planet was created by a big yellow monster who lives under his bed, but every time you look it turns invisible? You can't disprove my belief but if you look at the evidence and what's probable you'd be foolish to believe it. It's possible but improbable. Believing something because you can't disprove it is moronic.

bianchimoon

I think the quote is..
If you could reason with religious people, there would be no religious people

97th choice

Pross wrote:

bianchimoon wrote:

Education, Creationism is still taught in dozens of faith schools despite Government threats to withdraw their funding

I read this regularly. What schools exactly teach this? I spent my whole school life in Catholic schools and evolution was taught as fact. The only real difference was whether the origin of the universe was an act of god or accident of nature and to be honest even now neither side makes any logical sense to me.

My daughter's grammar school in Northern Ireland taught it, along with links to a creationist website 'quiz' as part of her homework.

bianchimoon

Pross wrote:

bianchimoon wrote:

Education, Creationism is still taught in dozens of faith schools despite Government threats to withdraw their funding

I read this regularly. What schools exactly teach this? I spent my whole school life in Catholic schools and evolution was taught as fact. The only real difference was whether the origin of the universe was an act of god or accident of nature and to be honest even now neither side makes any logical sense to me.

https://www.theguardian.com/science/blo ... cation-ace
It's all out there, to doubt just because you never experienced it is a very narrow view of the world

Stevo_666

bianchimoon wrote:

I think the quote is..
If you could reason with religious people, there would be no religious people

I like that.

florerider

Stevo 666 wrote:

bianchimoon wrote:

I think the quote is..
If you could reason with religious people, there would be no religious people

I like that.

4 pages. Quite an obsession with religion for a bunch of atheists!

metronome

I consider myself agnostic. Try to keep an open, rational and logical mind to everything. BUT religion is second only to the Big Bang Theory in things to get red faced and ranty about.

ballysmate

florerider wrote:

Stevo 666 wrote:

bianchimoon wrote:

I think the quote is..
If you could reason with religious people, there would be no religious people

I like that.

4 pages. Quite an obsession with religion for a bunch of atheists!

But religion has played such a part in everyday life, hasn't it? There are sectarian divides, particularly in Ireland and parts of Scotland. Throughout our history, a person's religious leanings governed how their life panned out.
Now we have Islam blighting our lives.
People need to cast off the yoke of religion that has hampered mankind for centuries.

ballysmate

metronome wrote:

I consider myself agnostic. Try to keep an open, rational and logical mind to everything. BUT religion is second only to the Big Bang Theory in things to get red faced and ranty about.

I have no idea if the Big Bang Theory is true or not, but there is evidence at the mo that suggests it is. If evidence is uncovered to the contrary, I will reassess my belief.
There is NO evidence that ANY god exists, much less evidence to suggest which of the many gods man prays to is the true God.

Stevo_666

florerider wrote:

Stevo 666 wrote:

bianchimoon wrote:

I think the quote is..
If you could reason with religious people, there would be no religious people

I like that.

4 pages. Quite an obsession with religion for a bunch of atheists!

It's a bit like the 'join the Labour party' thread. Most of us know that socialsm is a load of bollox but its fun to debate it with the deluded few who do believe in it

metronome

Ballysmate wrote:

metronome wrote:

I consider myself agnostic. Try to keep an open, rational and logical mind to everything. BUT religion is second only to the Big Bang Theory in things to get red faced and ranty about.

I have no idea if the Big Bang Theory is true or not, but there is evidence at the mo that suggests it is. If evidence is uncovered to the contrary, I will reassess my belief.
There is NO evidence that ANY god exists, much less evidence to suggest which of the many gods man prays to is the true God.

I was referring to that awful, awful, awful TV show, not the theory of how life began. It didn't even occur to me when I wrote it, which is amusing because it annoys me intently when religious words are used in scientific articles.

Anyway... A deity, yep couldn't agree more. No evidence at all. It would be moronic to believe it. As an idea though you can't discount it. And that's just what i regard it as - a daft idea which I can't discount but would be a fool to subscribe too. Agnostic.

metronome

duplicate post

Diamant49

re 97th Choice

" My daughter's grammar school in Northern Ireland taught it, along with links to a creationist website 'quiz' as part of her homework."

My daughter is in 1st year at a well known Belfast grammar school - she recently went on an RE class trip to an exhibition in Belfast that purported to prove scientifically that the earth was 6,000 years old.

My favourite bits were that the water for the flood was held in a blanket above the earth - this was designed by god to block out harmful things like UV light, which allowed people to live for hundreds of years (eg methuselah). As man sinned, there was a dual punishment of the water being allowed to collapse onto the earth & drown nearly everything in the flood, and the removal of the protection from UV rays means we all live much shorter lives...

The other bit was the dinosaurs - these were around at the time of the flood, but didn't please god anymore, so were all drowned and jumbled up in sediments as fossils, to test human belief and ensure even more of us end up in hell..

All this was mixed up with a strong, ye must be born again message - and the "science" consisted of quotes from the bible and wild statements just made up, but treated as facts.

Religion in schools might be less of an issue in the rest of the UK, but here it is often strongly evangelical and fundamentalist (the schools RE curriculum is based around this, not any comparative study of religion).

I was going to take the literature from this trip into parents night at the school ad ask the science teachers what they thought, but Mrs Diamant calmed me down - in any case Diamant junior just thought the whole thing was hilariously silly. In the end any vaguely intelligent person should be able to see through this guff.

bianchimoon

I went to a funeral once of a young girl who worked for me and her friend who tragically were killed in a totally avoidable accident . The family were strict evangelical christians, the funeral was one of the most shocking things i've seen, I had only been to normal funerals up until that point so was expecting something similar, but no, two 'preachers' were officiating it was real fire and brimstone stuff, they pranced around and in between these two coffins pointing at the people in attendance telling all and sundry to repent their evil sins before it was to late and they would burn in the fires of hell!!!
No comfort, no mention particularly of these two girls, just praising the lord and preaching about repenting sins in their pre-rehearsed choreography of delusion.

slowbike

Teaching of religion in schools isn't all about creationalism - the vast majority of Christians would agree that creationists are looneys ...
The bible - and all scriptures - IMHO are no more than a collection of stories written down to encourage morality in a generally unruley population - however, I do think that they are based on reality - yes, there really was a bloke called Jesus - yes he did preach about loving your neighbour and turning the other cheek etc etc - he was probably a decent stand up guy who if he was around today would be quite a prominent person - probably not for his own gain.
Do I think he fed 5000 people with a couple of loaves of bread and some fish - not a chance in hell - nor did he turn water into wine or make a (truely) lame man walk. These are all made up - probably based on something that did happen and embelished to make it sound really good - bit like our cycling stories - you know .. the one were we were out for that sunday morning pootle to the coffee shop and overtook Brad and Cav giving it some on their training ride ...

In terms of morality there's a lot to be said in teaching tollerance etc etc - but then you get to the extremes and so much hurt and hatred has been done "in God's name".
Some christians believe that you have to have a child baptised before they'd be accepted by their God ... so get them baptised at a few days old - really? Like it makes any difference to a baby that has little comprehension of the world around them - I think encouragement of this sort of belief is the downside to any religion and is based on the religious leaders wantint to excert control over the population - "you must come to the temple, you must give money (why?), you must do this for your child" etc etc. It's all efforts to control how the population behaves and keeps the religion in a position of authority and we all know that authority generally corrupts.

I'd be happy with a secular state

bianchimoon

Slowbike wrote:

In terms of morality there's a lot to be said in teaching tollerance etc etc -

I don't believe you can teach morality any more than you can teach empathy, you either have it or you don't to various degrees, there may be a case that people can learn morality from observation of others?

slowbike

well - the telegraph think you can teach morals ..

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/ed ... hools.html

moral
ˈmɒr(ə)l/
adjective
adjective: moral

1.
concerned with the principles of right and wrong behaviour.
"the moral dimensions of medical intervention"
synonyms: virtuous, good, righteous, upright, upstanding, high-minded, right-minded, principled, proper, honourable, honest, just, noble, incorruptible, scrupulous, respectable, decent, irreproachable, truthful, law-abiding, clean-living, chaste, pure, blameless, sinless
"a very moral man"
antonyms: immoral, bad, dishonourable
concerned with or derived from the code of behaviour that is considered right or acceptable in a particular society.
"they have a moral obligation to pay the money back"
synonyms: ethical; More
social, behavioural;
to do with right and wrong
"moral issues"
examining the nature of ethics and the foundations of good and bad character and conduct.
"moral philosophers"
2.
holding or manifesting high principles for proper conduct.
"he prides himself on being a highly moral and ethical person"

noun
noun: moral; plural noun: morals

1.
a lesson that can be derived from a story or experience.
"the moral of this story was that one must see the beauty in what one has"
synonyms: lesson, message, meaning, significance, signification, import, point, precept, teaching
"the moral of the story"
2.
standards of behaviour; principles of right and wrong.
"the corruption of public morals"
synonyms: moral code, code of ethics, moral standards, moral values, principles, principles of right and wrong, rules of conduct, standards/principles of behaviour, standards, morality, sense of morality, scruples, ideals
"he has no morals and cannot be trusted"

and I still think you can teach morals - leading by example is a good place to start - but still leaves a lot to cover. As right/wrong behaviour is objective different people will have different morals - who is to say one is right whilst the other wrong?

surrey_commuter

bianchimoon wrote:

Slowbike wrote:

In terms of morality there's a lot to be said in teaching tollerance etc etc -

I don't believe you can teach morality any more than you can teach empathy, you either have it or you don't to various degrees, there may be a case that people can learn morality from observation of others?

Nudge theory (or Nudge) is a concept in behavioural science, political theory and economics which argues that positive reinforcement and indirect suggestions to try to achieve non-forced compliance can influence the motives, incentives and decision making of groups and individuals, at least as effectively – if not more effectively – than direct instruction, legislation, or enforcement.

bianchimoon

you can teach someone to ride a bike, they won't forget
Teach someone morals, they won't neccasarily be moral, plenty of people have been to sunday school and ended up being immoral, murderers etc. You can suggest morality to people, whether they have morality hardwired in is another matter

bianchimoon

Teaching who's morals, Tony Blair's? David Camerons?, Pope someoneorother?
Teaching morals is a very poor substitute for being moral.

slowbike

bianchimoon wrote:

you can teach someone to ride a bike, they won't forget
Teach someone morals, they won't neccasarily be moral, plenty of people have been to sunday school and ended up being immoral, murderers etc. You can suggest morality to people, whether they have morality hardwired in is another matter

you can teach all sorts of things - doesn't mean that the student accepts that teaching.

I don't think morality is hardwired - some of what was considered moral centuries ago would be considered immoral now.

A person chooses their actions - they may steal, hurt or murder and know that society considers it "wrong" but do it anyway.

chris_bass

Does anyone actually know a religious person? celebrities and from the news don't count!

why or how are they bad?

metronome

Yeah. A VERY religious family live nearby. Known them for years and you can clearly whiteness the inherited indoctrination through 4 generations.

They're the nicest, warmest, friendliest people you could wish to meet. Of course this has no relation to their religion. They're just nice people. Plus, there are - arguably more -equally as friendly atheists/agnostics within the same distance.