Donald Trump
Comments
-
-
It's a curious reversal of exceptionalism that the western world appears to be much more up in arms about the US police injustices than say, HK, Russia, India, etc.0
-
In what sense? You are never going to persuade the same sort of US voters who inspire most terror (white, lower middle or working class, thick, conspiracy theorists, male with appended female who does what she is told) that Trump is anything other than the second coming.rick_chasey said:Not entirely sure this all works against trump.
But even the traditional Republican base isn't immune to shame. The intelligent, educated part of his support (yes, there are some) who I've spoken with are supportive of "the president" on the grounds that the office should command respect. i.e. The constant impeachment and enquiry culture isn't working particularly well for the Democrats. But I've also been asked how he is seen "abroad". Which isn't a question you ask if you think he's doing anything good. Alternatively, you get the "I voted for him but I didn't have any other choice" from those who would never vote Democrat.
No different from people here who would never vote Labour, I suppose.
But if he is a slight embarrassment to enough traditional Republicans, their turn out will drop. And as he's both overtly sexist and racist (and has been doing this on live TV daily throughout the pandemic), and those were key swing demographics in 2016.
I find it inexplicable that some people could vote Obama and then Trump in successive elections, but that's what happened.
Unemployment will also be massive when the election has come up. Republicans always do well amongst those who don't realise that the most "business friendly" policies don't put money in their pockets. Those same people will be struggling in large numbers and so less likely to vote for whoever has been in charge at the time. Trump might get some traction with "blame China" here, but he has a catch 22 that he can't fix that with a trade war while the economy is on its knees.
It is a perfect storm for him and this might be why he is being so particularly loopy.
The Democrats still might drop the ball, mind you, but Biden has a 10-point lead despite not being a social media politician and so hasn't been heard from very much during lockdown. Basically, Trump has managed to do that all by himself.0 -
Only in the sense these things, race riots etc, tend to increase republican support, not reduce.
I guess the level of coverage of the police behaviour - which looks remarkably like just a bully getting upset he got called out - might change it, but i suspect that that doesn't have cut through.
On a separate note, and it's not an original thought, is how much they walk around dressed and acting like they're in Call of Duty.
I mean, lads, you're supposed to be protecting the community.0 -
True, the Republicans are seen as as the "law and order" party, like our Tories, but the rioting won't last long and the lasting odour of racism and recession will linger.rick_chasey said:Only in the sense these things, race riots etc, tend to increase republican support, not reduce.
I guess the level of coverage of the police behaviour - which looks remarkably like just a bully getting upset he got called out - might change it, but i suspect that that doesn't have cut through.
On a separate note, and it's not an original thought, is how much they walk around dressed and acting like they're in Call of Duty.
I mean, lads, you're supposed to be protecting the community.0 -
This is closely linked to how vulnerable they feel when large numbers of the public have significant fire power. In the UK it is much easier to distinguish a potential threat as a police officer and win that battle. Try walking down the road with a gun in the UK and see how far you get before you have an armed team of officers requesting that you put the weapon down forcefully. If you don't then they will probably shoot you. Routine traffic stops in the US are an adrenaline fuelled exercise as they cant see the occupants fully and don't know if they are going to get shot at and when they do it will likely be fatal for the cop.
When cycling round America a couple of years ago I was reading a local rag in Colorado and it was full of just that states stories of black guys getting shot at traffic stops when they were not carrying. For sure there is a problem of racism affecting this scenario but I think the overriding problem is too many guns and therefore too much risk in low level enforcement interactions.0 -
That doesn't explain a lot of the behaviour that's being reported.
Cars driving into crowds, singling out (accredited) journalists to shoot at with rubber bullets, macing children, etc.
And it's not like the UK doesn't have a racist police problem either.0 -
Many on here don’t appreciate how tribal American politics is. The ones I know are all college educated and would never switch party.
I have not studied American politics but I would guess it is more about getting the vote out.0 -
The US police force is heavily authoritarian. Just go and try to have a laugh with them whilst asking for directions and quite often it is not well received. In the UK I have never had a bit of friendly banter with a police officer not go well. A lot of the behaviour just mirrors 4 years of trump. Remember the two sides of the story nonsense when white supremacists were driving at protests a few years ago. His general behaviour of lying and just generally doing what he wants with no repercussions. The police force in every country across the world will back each other up because that is what any organisation historically does and shooting rubber bullets at journalists is just another way of reducing getting caught for the next bit of brutality you are doling out. The difference in this setting is that the police have lost the upper hand as they are now dealing with large crowds who are unpredictable and dangerous for an officer who gets isolated. This is not where any police department wants to go but then again they could have dealt with their internal staff issues and Trump could have looked to reduce the number of guns in the population. Neither of which has happened.rick_chasey said:That doesn't explain a lot of the behaviour that's being reported.
Cars driving into crowds, singling out (accredited) journalists to shoot at with rubber bullets, macing children, etc.
And it's not like the UK doesn't have a racist police problem either.
In terms of the UK's problem with racism it all comes back to how quickly things escalate. UK's racism might be aggressive stop and search for example but because both parties are not carrying guns it might well be unjust but it is rarely lethal.0 -
I like the concept of shooting reporters with rubber bullets as a method of suppressing police brutality.
When I say like, I mean laugh at.The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
I am not sure. You have no chance.Veronese68 wrote:PB is the most sensible person on here.0 -
Someone must have put into their minds that the media is the enemy of the people.0
-
enemy of the police not enemy of the peoplekingstongraham said:Someone must have put into their minds that the media is the enemy of the people.
Footage of the riots seems to suggest a lot of people (including journalists) treating a riot as a spectator sport, mostly not behind police lines, which side do you think they look like they are on from behind a riot shield.
If you want to go and watch a riot then accept the consequences0 -
Erm, that's not quite what's happening.surrey_commuter said:
enemy of the police not enemy of the peoplekingstongraham said:Someone must have put into their minds that the media is the enemy of the people.
Footage of the riots seems to suggest a lot of people (including journalists) treating a riot as a spectator sport, mostly not behind police lines, which side do you think they look like they are on from behind a riot shield.
If you want to go and watch a riot then accept the consequences
https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-minneapolis-police-protest-update/reuters-camera-crew-hit-by-rubber-bullets-as-more-journalists-attacked-at-us-protests-idUKKBN237052“Usually if you get hit by this stuff it’s because you are between the police and the protesters - you’re taking the risk by being in the middle,” Jackson said. “During this they are actually aiming at us.”0 -
I've always felt that the more unquestioned authority a police force has, the more likely it is to attract recruits for the wrong reasons.
I've had several bad police experiences here - e.g. getting knocked off my bike by someone pulling a U-turn from stationary, and being threatened with a charge of careless cycling for unsafely trying to overtake them. (Said officer had a complaint upheld against them.)
But the difference is that they can be wrong and you can talk back. In the US, if you talk back you will end up being rammed against the side of your car, searched and booked at the station for resisting arrest. They are, far too often, legalised thugs.
It is, I am sure, sometimes a precaution against getting shot, but mostly it is a power trip I'm afraid, and that is all.
0 -
You think that's the same for racial minorities?First.Aspect said:I've always felt that the more unquestioned authority a police force has, the more likely it is to attract recruits for the wrong reasons.
I've had several bad police experiences here - e.g. getting knocked off my bike by someone pulling a U-turn from stationary, and being threatened with a charge of careless cycling for unsafely trying to overtake them. (Said officer had a complaint upheld against them.)
But the difference is that they can be wrong and you can talk back. In the US, if you talk back you will end up being rammed against the side of your car, searched and booked at the station for resisting arrest. They are, far too often, legalised thugs.
It is, I am sure, sometimes a precaution against getting shot, but mostly it is a power trip I'm afraid, and that is all.0 -
Good point and I suppose it is important to acknowledge to myself that I can't possibly know - I'm white, middle class with an unplaceable somewhere in England accent.rick_chasey said:
You think that's the same for racial minorities?First.Aspect said:I've always felt that the more unquestioned authority a police force has, the more likely it is to attract recruits for the wrong reasons.
I've had several bad police experiences here - e.g. getting knocked off my bike by someone pulling a U-turn from stationary, and being threatened with a charge of careless cycling for unsafely trying to overtake them. (Said officer had a complaint upheld against them.)
But the difference is that they can be wrong and you can talk back. In the US, if you talk back you will end up being rammed against the side of your car, searched and booked at the station for resisting arrest. They are, far too often, legalised thugs.
It is, I am sure, sometimes a precaution against getting shot, but mostly it is a power trip I'm afraid, and that is all.
But by the same token, infinitely more so than in the US.0 -
Heres a fun contrast.john80 said:
The US police force is heavily authoritarian. Just go and try to have a laugh with them whilst asking for directions and quite often it is not well received. In the UK I have never had a bit of friendly banter with a police officer not go well. A lot of the behaviour just mirrors 4 years of trump. Remember the two sides of the story nonsense when white supremacists were driving at protests a few years ago. His general behaviour of lying and just generally doing what he wants with no repercussions. The police force in every country across the world will back each other up because that is what any organisation historically does and shooting rubber bullets at journalists is just another way of reducing getting caught for the next bit of brutality you are doling out. The difference in this setting is that the police have lost the upper hand as they are now dealing with large crowds who are unpredictable and dangerous for an officer who gets isolated. This is not where any police department wants to go but then again they could have dealt with their internal staff issues and Trump could have looked to reduce the number of guns in the population. Neither of which has happened.rick_chasey said:That doesn't explain a lot of the behaviour that's being reported.
Cars driving into crowds, singling out (accredited) journalists to shoot at with rubber bullets, macing children, etc.
And it's not like the UK doesn't have a racist police problem either.
In terms of the UK's problem with racism it all comes back to how quickly things escalate. UK's racism might be aggressive stop and search for example but because both parties are not carrying guns it might well be unjust but it is rarely lethal.
Couple on holiday in Canada accidentally strayed into the US while driving after getting lost. Police arrested them placed both in separated imagination centres it was in the news an dragged on
Driver in the US got lost strayed over into Canada, police showed him where he should be going and escorted him back over to the US side.
I know which I prefer.
Also on the UK police side, yes you can have a lot of harmless laughs with them when I was last in the US a few years back it was a big no no even trying to make a joke.0 -
I've trotted the story about before but me and a bunch of guys used to go out. One them was black and literally every time we went out one of three police officers would stop him.
Sometimes to chat. Sometimes to waste him time (so he'd miss happy hour ,that kins of thing). Sometimes to stop & search when that was easier to do.
Every time - non of the rest of us ever got any hassle, even when we mouthed off to them.
Then there were the immigration officers who always used to stop my iranian colleague for a 'random' stop and search on every flight. We'd all go through first and wait so when they called him up we would do the sarcastic "oooooo----waaaaaaay".
Never stopped them.0 -
Loud shirts in built up areas are a genuine issue!rick_chasey said:
And it's not like the UK doesn't have a racist police problem either.0 -
Your story of the family who strayed into the US is rubbish. They say they swerved to avoid an unidentified animal on the road and were immediately arrested for being in America. It's the storyline that only Cummings could have pulled off.step83 said:
Heres a fun contrast.
Couple on holiday in Canada accidentally strayed into the US while driving after getting lost. Police arrested them placed both in separated imagination centres it was in the news an dragged on
Driver in the US got lost strayed over into Canada, police showed him where he should be going and escorted him back over to the US side.
https://workpermit.com/news/uk-family-detained-us-visa-authorities-files-complaint-20191021
The family had already been turned away once and knew exactly what they were doing. Yes the US border guards are harsh but they were clearly criminals.
0 -
Mmm. If you ever get the chance, try driving across to Canada, then back to the US a day or two later. The US authorities grudgingly takes the attitude that you are lucky to be able to visit, the Canadians are delighted you are visiting their lovely country.
Broad brush, I know.0 -
What about the jogger on a beach who went across the border by accident and was held for 2 weeks - is that one real or no?fenix said:
Your story of the family who strayed into the US is rubbish. They say they swerved to avoid an unidentified animal on the road and were immediately arrested for being in America. It's the storyline that only Cummings could have pulled off.step83 said:
Heres a fun contrast.
Couple on holiday in Canada accidentally strayed into the US while driving after getting lost. Police arrested them placed both in separated imagination centres it was in the news an dragged on
Driver in the US got lost strayed over into Canada, police showed him where he should be going and escorted him back over to the US side.
https://workpermit.com/news/uk-family-detained-us-visa-authorities-files-complaint-20191021
The family had already been turned away once and knew exactly what they were doing. Yes the US border guards are harsh but they were clearly criminals.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/jun/22/jogger-detained-us-border-cedella-roman-immigration-ordeal0 -
Sometimes I wonder if Trump is just living the ultimate keyboard warrior fantasy.
Hence him ending up in a bunker, making racist rants and complaining about 'anti-fascists'.
Something about that seems familiar...0 -
it is an eye opener when you hang out with non-whites, the worse part is that initially you are jumping up and down whilst they do not even shrug as that is normal for them.rick_chasey said:I've trotted the story about before but me and a bunch of guys used to go out. One them was black and literally every time we went out one of three police officers would stop him.
Sometimes to chat. Sometimes to waste him time (so he'd miss happy hour ,that kins of thing). Sometimes to stop & search when that was easier to do.
Every time - non of the rest of us ever got any hassle, even when we mouthed off to them.
Then there were the immigration officers who always used to stop my iranian colleague for a 'random' stop and search on every flight. We'd all go through first and wait so when they called him up we would do the sarcastic "oooooo----waaaaaaay".
Never stopped them.
I don't look typically English as I am on the swarthy side whereas my missus could not look more pale and English. On my own I could ease through an airport but with her I hit some form of profiling and would be "randomly" selected for enhanced security which meant jumping the queue and being put in one of those body x-ray machines. To be clear I am not moaning as it was funny each time they told me I had been randomly selected and would leave the missus at the back of the hour long queue.0 -
The problem I have, is, what do I do about it?
In reality, I do very little. What are you supposed to do? At the time we all gave them lip of varying degrees, especially as it became a familiar occurrence. I remember getting quite worked up about it at home and wanting to raise the issue with my local councillor but my parents dissuaded me. There was no real evidence - mobile phones with cameras weren't a thing then.
The only thing it really taught me was that the police are unfair and your only real defence against it is really *knowing the law*, having the balls to back yourself on it, and staying calm.
0 -
Whilst I can't disagree with the characterisation of US border officials, it's a bit different on the road to Chicken, Alaska.0
-
"Is that your bible?"
"It's A bible."
He's just a sick joke.0 -
We should all stop holding the US to high standards. Treat em like you would China.kingstongraham said:
"Is that your bible?"
"It's A bible."
He's just a sick joke.
0 -
Makes sense since the US now has a dicktator.rick_chasey said:
We should all stop holding the US to high standards. Treat em like you would China.kingstongraham said:
"Is that your bible?"
"It's A bible."
He's just a sick joke.The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
I am not sure. You have no chance.Veronese68 wrote:PB is the most sensible person on here.0 -
He was always fascist as a president. I've been saying this for four years.pblakeney said:
Makes sense since the US now has a dicktator.rick_chasey said:
We should all stop holding the US to high standards. Treat em like you would China.kingstongraham said:
"Is that your bible?"
"It's A bible."
He's just a sick joke.
I know we all hold US to a higher standard, but I do struggle to be shocked by what I'm seeing. What were people expecting?
We all know large swathes of America has been like this for a long time.
The challenge is that this works for him, electorally.0
