Donald Trump

shirley_basso

KingstonGraham wrote:

Shirley Basso wrote:

The 2nd Amendment is a little out of date and was for homeowners to defend themselves against the military during the civil war. I don't think it anticipated it meant easy access to all and sundry to maintain an arsenal at home and wear them in the streets with magazines attached.

The 2nd amendment was adopted in 1791. The civil war started in 1861.

Apologies. The idea being is that it allowed the common person to defend themself against a soldier who may decide to pillage their home, notably when single shot rifles were long rifles, capable of firing two or three balls per minute.

As for the piece from american hunter, the only other people I can think of who hunt animals with machine guns are ivory poachers.

In the UK, hunting larger animals with large bore weapons generally involves stalking, getting as close as you can so that you can kill the animal with a single shot. Most of these skills take a long time to learn and master as the goal is to then take the carcass away and eat it. If you fill your target with lead then it isn't particularly edible, nor does it require much skill, just a lot of testosterone and patriotism. Yee haw.

TheBigBean

Veronese68 wrote:

TheBigBean wrote:

Not at all, but failing to understand hunting and people that do it, weakens the argument.

Thought that would be the case, you don't seem unreasonable. I don't think any of the people in those pictures were hunters though, most of them were posing because they thought they looked cool with guns.

That would be pretty idiotic. I've never met anyone who has done that although the internet is clearly awash with such people.

Veronese68 wrote:

Some hunting, such as the moose you mention may be alright. But then you get to the idiots hunting endangered species. I must admit I'm of the opinion that hunting big game hunters should be legalised.

It is an interesting topic. Stacey Dooley did a good documentary on it. I don't think it is clear cut.

shirley_basso

BigBean - do you think that non-sporting gun ownership is justified given the number of innocent people killed by them on a daily basis in the USA?

Note that in the UK there are very few exceptions to permit owning a gun which is semi automatic and doesn't require cocking and reloading in between each shot. All of these guns that are acceptable in the UK under with permits (all firearms other than airguns require one) are perfect for hunting when used by a skilled user and can be extremely powerful.

TheBigBean

Shirley Basso wrote:

BigBean - do you think that non-sporting gun ownership is justified given the number of innocent people killed by them on a daily basis in the USA?

No. I have pretty much already said that.

shirley_basso

Maybe I've missed something but what angle are you trying to defend?

That an AK-47 is a suitable hunting weapon and that once you're inside the mind of a hunter it's acceptable to have one and carry it around in public?

Have you ever fired a gun (serious question)?

TheBigBean

Shirley Basso wrote:

Maybe I've missed something but what angle are you trying to defend?

That an AK-47 is a suitable hunting weapon and that once you're inside the mind of a hunter it's acceptable to have one and carry it around in public?

Have you ever fired a gun (serious question)?

Was my first statement.

TheBigBean wrote:

Not sure what all the nakedness with guns is about nor the kids with guns photos, but guns on wall whilst changing a nappy and guns on back whilst buying takeaway seem reasonably normal to me for various parts of the world.

Broadly, I am defending the fact that people hunt and in areas where they do, it is common place to see guns. This shouldn't be judged from the point of view a city dweller that has never met such people.

I am a city dweller, but have met many such people. I do not know anything about guns. I cannot recognise an AK47. I have never fired a gun. I have no desire to fire a gun nor any real interest in them. I googled AK47 and hunting to see what the internet said. The internet seems to think it can be used for hunting with the right bullets, and the trade off is accuracy for reliability. That was a bit of useless education for me, but compares well with performance / reliability bike discussions.

Anyway, if the specific guns in the photo have no purpose, then my original comment was wrong, but due to my naivety, if I had been present in said burger bar, I wouldn't have batted an eyelid as I would have assumed, perhaps incorrectly, that they were hunting rather than posturing.

In contrast to guns, the subject of hunting is vaguely of interest to me. My meat comes nicely wrapped in a supermarket, and I make sure that wasps are released outside. I have found it interesting when I have met someone with wildly different experiences of this. I have also spent too much time hitchhiking in hunting country where I needed to chat about it. And sometimes when hitchhiking, the guns would be in the back of the truck with a dead animal, and sometimes they would be on the back seat rolling around. Presumably some of them had gun boxes I failed to notice. My lifestyle is /was different, but I refuse to judge theirs.

On one such ride with a deer in the back of the truck, and gun in front, I was invited for Chinese, not a burger. I managed to politely decline, but if I had accepted, I have no idea what would have happened to either the gun or the deer.

Matthewfalle

Moontrane wrote:

Moontrane wrote:

Matthewfalle wrote:

Moontrane wrote:

cooldad wrote:

Moontrane wrote:

Matthewfalle wrote:

Moontrane wrote:

bianchimoon wrote:

Moontrane wrote:

bianchimoon wrote:

The default position of trump, the NRA and the gun lobby is guns are NOT dangerous, it’s the mental health of the people who use them that is the problem. Yet last year trump cut 18% from the budget of the department responsible for background checks on people buying guns. Of course nothing will ever change in the US it’s a frightened society and events like 14 feb, make it imperative that a vocal minority have weapons to protect themselves. The best the US can eve hope for is a ban on automatic weapons that were designed for war, not protection or hunting.

Automatic weapons are rarely used in mass shootings. I can't recall the last time one was used. Weapons designed for war - the fully automatic, machine-gun types - are used by military and some portions of law enforcement such as SWAT.

Phew, American kids eh, such a bunch of drama queens, worrying about whether those pesky shooters have bump stocked their rifles or have a nifty finger action.

Who has used "your" bump stock to shoot drama-queen American students?

I could ask a neighborhood kid to fashion me a bump stock, having him use just a shoestring. Do you understand that bump stocks are like mechanical pencils? Ban them and only law-abiding citizens comply.

Sorry - are you saying that the students are drama queens - i.e. Making a mountain out of a molehill, being over dramatic, worrying about things that don't really need worrying about?

Some from the from the Florida high school are. School shootings are incredibly rare.

Yeah because having your friends mowed down by a psycho is just one of those things. Nothing to see here, move along.

Perhaps they see a bigger picture....

As I wrote, incredibly rare. It's an awful picture, but they're kids who have no idea how ignorant they are. Emoting is not an argument.

Do you believe that American teenagers know better/more about the 2nd amendment and guns than adults? Do you know more than American teenagers do about the 2nd amendment and guns?

And here we go again.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/0 ... -shooting/

Absolutely no reason at all ever for weapons of that type to be anywhere except Barracks, combat zones and very essential places with massive regulations.

I frickin' hate guns.

Why do you hate guns? Drivers kill many more in your country than those using guns. Hate cars - at all?

Sorry, I didn't include this:

Define and describe the function of what “weapons of that type” means.

Did you know that the US military does not use the AR-15? It’s inadequate for their needs.

Yes. I have a very slight inkling. I think I may have seen that piece of information on a documentary or on Newsround one afternoon.

But thank you for confirming it to me.

Matthewfalle

Moontrane wrote:

Matthewfalle wrote:

Moontrane wrote:

cooldad wrote:

Moontrane wrote:

Matthewfalle wrote:

Moontrane wrote:

bianchimoon wrote:

Moontrane wrote:

bianchimoon wrote:

The default position of trump, the NRA and the gun lobby is guns are NOT dangerous, it’s the mental health of the people who use them that is the problem. Yet last year trump cut 18% from the budget of the department responsible for background checks on people buying guns. Of course nothing will ever change in the US it’s a frightened society and events like 14 feb, make it imperative that a vocal minority have weapons to protect themselves. The best the US can eve hope for is a ban on automatic weapons that were designed for war, not protection or hunting.

Automatic weapons are rarely used in mass shootings. I can't recall the last time one was used. Weapons designed for war - the fully automatic, machine-gun types - are used by military and some portions of law enforcement such as SWAT.

Phew, American kids eh, such a bunch of drama queens, worrying about whether those pesky shooters have bump stocked their rifles or have a nifty finger action.

Who has used "your" bump stock to shoot drama-queen American students?

I could ask a neighborhood kid to fashion me a bump stock, having him use just a shoestring. Do you understand that bump stocks are like mechanical pencils? Ban them and only law-abiding citizens comply.

Sorry - are you saying that the students are drama queens - i.e. Making a mountain out of a molehill, being over dramatic, worrying about things that don't really need worrying about?

Some from the from the Florida high school are. School shootings are incredibly rare.

Yeah because having your friends mowed down by a psycho is just one of those things. Nothing to see here, move along.

Perhaps they see a bigger picture....

As I wrote, incredibly rare. It's an awful picture, but they're kids who have no idea how ignorant they are. Emoting is not an argument.

Do you believe that American teenagers know better/more about the 2nd amendment and guns than adults? Do you know more than American teenagers do about the 2nd amendment and guns?

And here we go again.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/0 ... -shooting/

Absolutely no reason at all ever for weapons of that type to be anywhere except Barracks, combat zones and very essential places with massive regulations.

I frickin' hate guns.

Why do you hate guns? Drivers kill many more in your country than those using guns. Hate cars - at all?

Well, guns tend to be heavy, hurt when you bang against them, get in the way, are cumbersome and they are also ugly.

Oh - they also kill and really hurt people, which isn’t Very nice at all.

Matthewfalle

TheBigBean wrote:

I should add, I am not claiming any knowledge of gun types and uses. Just that they are common place in some parts of the world.

Edit. First google hit.

The next time you head to the woods for deer—think AK. Seriously. Well, that is if you want a reliable, heavy-hitting, easy-to-clean, strip, reassemble, and shoot in rain, sleet, snow, mud and swamp rifle—because the Russian-designed AK-47 military rifle is all these things and more. A lot more.

https://www.americanhunter.org/articles ... -it-ak-47/

I am presuming that not many people on here have used an AK?

I think the article may be somewhat tongue in cheek/trying to stretch a point to prove a point (much like those “can you tour on a TT bike/Fireblade? articles bike and motorbike magazines print).

shirley_basso

TheBigBean wrote:

Shirley Basso wrote:

Maybe I've missed something but what angle are you trying to defend?

That an AK-47 is a suitable hunting weapon and that once you're inside the mind of a hunter it's acceptable to have one and carry it around in public?

Have you ever fired a gun (serious question)?

Was my first statement.

TheBigBean wrote:

Not sure what all the nakedness with guns is about nor the kids with guns photos, but guns on wall whilst changing a nappy and guns on back whilst buying takeaway seem reasonably normal to me for various parts of the world.

Broadly, I am defending the fact that people hunt and in areas where they do, it is common place to see guns. This shouldn't be judged from the point of view a city dweller that has never met such people.

I am a city dweller, but have met many such people. I do not know anything about guns. I cannot recognise an AK47. I have never fired a gun. I have no desire to fire a gun nor any real interest in them. I googled AK47 and hunting to see what the internet said. The internet seems to think it can be used for hunting with the right bullets, and the trade off is accuracy for reliability. That was a bit of useless education for me, but compares well with performance / reliability bike discussions.

Anyway, if the specific guns in the photo have no purpose, then my original comment was wrong, but due to my naivety, if I had been present in said burger bar, I wouldn't have batted an eyelid as I would have assumed, perhaps incorrectly, that they were hunting rather than posturing.

In contrast to guns, the subject of hunting is vaguely of interest to me. My meat comes nicely wrapped in a supermarket, and I make sure that wasps are released outside. I have found it interesting when I have met someone with wildly different experiences of this. I have also spent too much time hitchhiking in hunting country where I needed to chat about it. And sometimes when hitchhiking, the guns would be in the back of the truck with a dead animal, and sometimes they would be on the back seat rolling around. Presumably some of them had gun boxes I failed to notice. My lifestyle is /was different, but I refuse to judge theirs.

On one such ride with a deer in the back of the truck, and gun in front, I was invited for Chinese, not a burger. I managed to politely decline, but if I had accepted, I have no idea what would have happened to either the gun or the deer.

I guess it depends on your view of hunting. If shooting enough bullets into a living creature constitutes that then yes, I suppose an AK47 is suitable. Anyone with a modicum of respect for their quarry would use a high calibre, accurate, reliable rifle and attempt to kill it with a single shot.

My point is that a lot of these guns and the unnecessary posturing nurtures an unnatural obsession with guns, rather than the sport for which they have been adapted, and therefore the idea of gun restrictions may curtail their freedom.

The most vocal of defendants seem to not like the idea of losing the freedom to empty countless unaimed bullets into the side of an animal or down a target range or just into a woodland, rather than realise that sporting game hunter may actually not be affected, similarly someone who likes target shooting, where speed of shooting is not so important in either case, but accuracy.

TheGardenGnome

I'm not necessarily anti gun, but Americans in general are not mature enough to have them and should be among the last to have them. The Swiss on the other hand have a better handle of things on this topic.

shirley_basso

I did have a discussion with a handgun owner who said he had learned how to use it, shoot relatively accurately and kept it in a safe. It was to him like a fire extinguisher is to a home owner in the UK - just a tool to deal with an emergency, which in his case would be a burglary as the person lived so remotely that the police couldn't be expected to be there in such a short time.

However the argument doesn't really add up when one looks at Canada for example where the gun laws are stricter, people live equally remotely and gun crime is lower.

I do 'like' guns in a loose sense and they are fun to use, even just emptying a full magazine on full automatic into an empty field was worryingly satisfying but I am happy to have my freedom to do so at will curtailed because it is not in the wider public interest to make such ownership legal.

Freedom doesn't necessarily mean the freedom to do what you want, when you want and the irony around the 2nd amendment is that it was an amendment. Why should the constitution not be amended again?

TheBigBean

Shirley Basso - I'm not sure anyone is disagreeing with you. The arguments made in favour of current gun rules in the US are extremely weak.

On the subject of hunting with an AK47 (noting my lack of knowledge on the subject), the internet suggested that the automatic element was useful for fine tuning skills at a range, so that when hunting, the single shot would be accurate and a kill shot, and it would be the same gun that the owner had practised on. There was some further discussion about which bullets to use at the range versus hunting, but my eyes glazed over at that point.

Matthewfalle

Shirley Basso wrote:

I do 'like' guns in a loose sense and they are fun to use, even just emptying a full magazine on full automatic into an empty field was worryingly satisfying

It actually gets very boring very quickly and you spend your time devising ever new and igneous ways of not doing it so you don't have to clean the bugger.

shirley_basso

Matthewfalle wrote:

Shirley Basso wrote:

I do 'like' guns in a loose sense and they are fun to use, even just emptying a full magazine on full automatic into an empty field was worryingly satisfying

It actually gets very boring very quickly and you spend your time devising ever new and igneous ways of not doing it so you don't have to clean the bugger.

Oh I know, although tended to find that live rounds weren't as dirty as blanks, but will defer to your experience on this one.

rjsterry

I'm not sure if the idea that possession of small arms would be some sort of defence against an overbearing state is funny or tragic. I don't think it was a realistic idea in 1791, let alone 200-odd years later.

pinno

PBlakeney wrote:

Futility.
Attempting to have a logical debate with an illogical person.

Don't argue with a fool, or people might not know the difference.
(Well, that's what I said to Hilary).

bianchimoon

Looks like Admiral Ronny, Trumps nomination to head up the Veterans Association is going T*ts up
NBC reporting that there are lots of allegations of excessive drinking, mis prescribing of meds and poor department morale, given the way he presented his medical report on Trump, saying he could have lived to 200 years of age with a better diet, came across as a pretty weird thing to say and also getting Trumps height and weight wrong (deliberately?), but it seems the clincher was when he performed a rectal examination on Trump and pulled out Sean Hannity was the biggest mistake.

dinyull

TheBigBean wrote:

orraloon wrote:

Semi automatic or not, they can't be all that hot shot hunters if they then need to queue up fer their fast food takeaway.

Hunting in some parts appears to be more of a drinking / eating / socialising event than sport. I think the drinking happens afterwards.

Have you heard of open carry?

The people in the pics above haven't been hunting, they're just roaming texas with a shotgun and an assault rifle.

If they had just been hunting, I'd expect the guns to be locked away in a safe/cabinet in their car/truck/van. Like most sensible people would.

cooldad

Dinyull wrote:

TheBigBean wrote:

orraloon wrote:

Semi automatic or not, they can't be all that hot shot hunters if they then need to queue up fer their fast food takeaway.

Hunting in some parts appears to be more of a drinking / eating / socialising event than sport. I think the drinking happens afterwards.

Have you heard of open carry?

The people in the pics above haven't been hunting, they're just roaming texas with a shotgun and an assault rifle.

If they had just been hunting, I'd expect the guns to be locked away in a safe/cabinet in their car/truck/van. Like most sensible people would.

Just in case of a Muslim/Soviet/Mexican/liberal invasion.

tangled_metal

Did someone say it was shot in Texas? Say no more. The cloakrooms to posh restaurants even have places to check in your hat, spurs and guns. How the hell can you drive a truck with spurs on?

There a bit crazy. Ever try to explain UK gun control to a texan who's never left the state? Even a clever one? That's half an hour of time wasting on a Friday morning I actually found amusing. After the call ended it was very close to home time so I couldn't really start anything new. It was a customer so I treated it as work.

That company had a great way to control vermin. Every so often the workers would stay behind after work. Their families came and they had a big bbq. BTW the BBQs were actually truck trailers they were so big. A few beers, a few slabs of cow meat and then the vermin control started. A line of shooters starting from the factory heading out into the scrubby wasteland around it. Basically shooting whatever weapon they had at anything that moved. It kept the wildlife away for a month or two doing that.

A guy from our country used to go out there a lot. He got taken on a hunt once. I doubt I'd enjoy a bunch of guys floating on a punt with a big engine drinking beer and occasionally firing a round off when pi$$Ed. Redneck style but they were managers, engineers and clever bosses at the very successful company. Still it's what they did.

Seriously, Texans are something else. I've met and spoken to a lot over the years and it's entertaining for a brit IMHO. Totally different mindset.

TheBigBean

I remember someone trying to explain to me what a redneck was. I didn't get it until I finally met one.

I could post a long list of comically ignorant questions I have been asked, but I think that is unfair. There is a lot of knowledge just about things I have no idea about, and the distribution of pleasantness is the same as any other group.

Matthewfalle

Tangled Metal wrote:

a bunch of guys floating on a punt with a big engine drinking beer and occasionally firing a round off when pi$$Ed. .

actually sounds like really good fun. The shooting bit would just be noisy and inconvenient and I presume soon get side lined for more eating and drinking.

Far far far better than a clubbie run/meal by at least 600 miles.

Matthewfalle

TheBigBean wrote:

I remember someone trying to explain to me what a redneck was..

I think there may about 51% of the British population who fall into that category judging by the Brexit vote......

ayjaycee

Matthewfalle wrote:

TheBigBean wrote:

I remember someone trying to explain to me what a redneck was..

I think there may about 51% of the British population who fall into that category judging by the Brexit vote......

Fluck me, now you've taken this thread in a whole new direction - I'll probably see the mushroom clouds from here as brexiteer heads explode!

orraloon

Blxxdy Brussels, stopping us having guns, take back control people and fire at Will.

[Whichever Will fits your criteria]

pinno

bianchimoon wrote:

...but it seems the clincher was when he performed a rectal examination on Trump and pulled out Sean Hannity was the biggest mistake.

Good one.

tangled_metal

Matthewfalle wrote:

Tangled Metal wrote:

a bunch of guys floating on a punt with a big engine drinking beer and occasionally firing a round off when pi$$Ed. .

actually sounds like really good fun. The shooting bit would just be noisy and inconvenient and I presume soon get side lined for more eating and drinking.

Far far far better than a clubbie run/meal by at least 600 miles.

No food. Eating gets in the way of drinking. Plus not much driving of the boat. Kind of taking it out of sight then drink, float and try not to fall out of the boat.

pblakeney

Tangled Metal wrote:

Matthewfalle wrote:

Tangled Metal wrote:

a bunch of guys floating on a punt with a big engine drinking beer and occasionally firing a round off when pi$$Ed. .

actually sounds like really good fun. The shooting bit would just be noisy and inconvenient and I presume soon get side lined for more eating and drinking.

Far far far better than a clubbie run/meal by at least 600 miles.

No food. Eating gets in the way of drinking. Plus not much driving of the boat. Kind of taking it out of sight then drink, float and try not to fall out of the boat.

Just like fishing then?

Matthewfalle

Tangled Metal wrote:

Matthewfalle wrote:

Tangled Metal wrote:

a bunch of guys floating on a punt with a big engine drinking beer and occasionally firing a round off when pi$$Ed. .

actually sounds like really good fun. The shooting bit would just be noisy and inconvenient and I presume soon get side lined for more eating and drinking.

Far far far better than a clubbie run/meal by at least 600 miles.

No food. Eating gets in the way of drinking. Plus not much driving of the boat. Kind of taking it out of sight then drink, float and try not to fall out of the boat.

it does actually sound excellent.