Donald Trump

PhilipPirrip

Brexit supporters aren't all an homogenous group, a bit like cyclists really, but people with a variety of thoughts and ideas so to infer they as a group have a proximity to BF might satisfy somes prejudices but it would be lazy, dangerous and wrong.

It's no better than someone taking a video of a dutch national fighting and using it as evidence to satisfy their prejudices and their wont to spread hate against all muslims, who again aren't all an homogenous group.

rjsterry

Bloody hell, Goo! Yes, BF are far right without a shadow of a doubt. They may be smaller in number and less organised but that's who they are. Their leading members are mostly ex-BNP or do you not think they count as far right either?

tangled_metal

Seriously you should have been around my work referendum time. They were pretty much homogenous in their racism. Well except the handful of them who were worse. Seriously two of the most rampant Brexit supporters were and still are too the right if BF. They think Trump is not right wing enough. They see Trumps comments as him moving in the right direction but not going far enough.

Whilst it's not the same everywhere with every brexiteer in sure but those I know are like this. Well they were, a lot are now talking differently. They've had their eyes opened by events after the referendum. Whilst still supporting Brexit (they have the view it's too late to pull back from it) they think it's not going to be good now. They're regretting it I guess.

BTW I'm sure you're a more civil Brexit supporter who's capable of critical thought. One without a racist outlook. Indeed as far from a BF supporter as most of us are. However you're not from round here and I reckon you haven't experienced the racism of Brexit supporters in a very Brexit voting constituency which had a very large influx of polish workers.
Was it really ten years back?

mamba80

Tangled Metal wrote:

Seriously you should have been around my work referendum time. They were pretty much homogenous in their racism. Well except the handful of them who were worse. Seriously two of the most rampant Brexit supporters were and still are too the right if BF. They think Trump is not right wing enough. They see Trumps comments as him moving in the right direction but not going far enough.

Whilst it's not the same everywhere with every brexiteer in sure but those I know are like this. Well they were, a lot are now talking differently. They've had their eyes opened by events after the referendum. Whilst still supporting Brexit (they have the view it's too late to pull back from it) they think it's not going to be good now. They're regretting it I guess.

BTW I'm sure you're a more civil Brexit supporter who's capable of critical thought. One without a racist outlook. Indeed as far from a BF supporter as most of us are. However you're not from round here and I reckon you haven't experienced the racism of Brexit supporters in a very Brexit voting constituency which had a very large influx of polish workers.
Was it really ten years back?

Down here there is plenty of support of Trump and i dont know any brexitiers who ve changed their mind either, in fact possibly the opposite.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/po ... 66606.html

only 64% think Trumps proposed ban on muslim immigration is wrong, with 25% in full support..... over 300k signed a petition supporting his visit to the UK.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/02 ... oll-shows/

Outside of the cosmopolitan SE the UK is very different place

Pross

Mr Goo wrote:

So my question is. If BF are far right, what the hell were the Nazis on the political spectrum? As far as I'm aware BF are just a breakaway from BNP and consist of a few morons that spout off about immigrants. They've hardly formed into a paramilitary organisation that systematically rounds up gypsies, Jews and the disabled and then exterminate them. As far as I'm concerned BF are just stupid right wing with narrow minded views of the outside world and it's people. But Far Right? No. Their views should be seen in the perspective of what could happen. But they are a million miles away from Nazism.

Just because they aren't in a position to physically enact the worst behaviour of Nazis doesn't mean the don't want to.
Fortunately the political environment in this country isn't quite so bad that they can get to a position to create such policies and I hope that continues but who knows with the way things are going.

mr_goo

rjsterry wrote:

Bloody hell, Goo! Yes, BF are far right without a shadow of a doubt. They may be smaller in number and less organised but that's who they are. Their leading members are mostly ex-BNP or do you not think they count as far right either?

Look. I'm merely trying to seek some clarity and balance here. I'm not saying they're not racist or idiots. But if you and others consider them Far Right. Then what were the Nazis? I think it is a perfectly reasonable question to ask. And why isn't or wasn't there the same condemnation of Far Left activists ie Mr Corbyn, for sharing a platform with terrorists. And don't give me the "He is trying to broker peace " bull 5hit. That doesn't wash.
I'm not in support of Trump or Corbyn. I just want a balanced discussion.

darkhairedlord

Mr Goo wrote:

rjsterry wrote:

Bloody hell, Goo! Yes, BF are far right without a shadow of a doubt. They may be smaller in number and less organised but that's who they are. Their leading members are mostly ex-BNP or do you not think they count as far right either?

Look. I'm merely trying to seek some clarity and balance here. I'm not saying they're not racist or idiots. But if you and others consider them Far Right. Then what were the Nazis? I think it is a perfectly reasonable question to ask. And why isn't or wasn't there the same condemnation of Far Left activists ie Mr Corbyn, for sharing a platform with terrorists. And don't give me the "He is trying to broker peace " bull 5hit. That doesn't wash.
I'm not in support of Trump or Corbyn. I just want a balanced discussion.

they are only different to the nazis because the nazis got power.

veronese68

Mr Goo wrote:

I'm not in support of Trump or Corbyn. I just want a balanced discussion.

Like when people protested against the right wing extremists in Virginia and Trump said there were bad people on both sides?

tangled_metal

Nazis got power. If BF got that level of power do you not think they'd be doing some very bad things? They're the same kind of political beliefs, but their ability to do harm isn't the same.

Corbyn isn't a kind of left wing version of BF. He's not hard left. He might have hard left ppl supporting him though. I believe the harder left you go the more like the far right some of their arguments behind. However Corbyn has quite some way to go to reach that level.

He has strong left wing views. Part of that is anti-Israel for example. Others with that view are very distasteful but in his old position (as a minor back bencher in the opposition) he had very little platform to put his views across. Those platforms were very likely to be shared with really distasteful people including terrorists. That does not mean his support for Palestinians on these platforms includes support for terrorists sharing that platform.

Right I'm off to lie down. Defending Corbyn has made me feel positively queasy. I need to recover my strength after that effort!

cooldad

THE Queen has confirmed that if President Trump visits the UK, she can kill him with a sword and nobody can touch her.


http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/inte ... 0131121313

pinno

Thank Christ someone brought this thread back on topic (sort of).

Are your fingers sore TM?

tangled_metal

Pinno wrote:

Thank Christ someone brought this thread back on topic (sort of).

Are your fingers sore TM?

Nope! I'm a highly trained athlete, I can swype for England!

PS it's a 196 page thread. It has remained surprisingly on thread. By now most similar threads would have left the topic far behind.

pinno

Tangled Metal wrote:

Pinno wrote:

Thank Christ someone brought this thread back on topic (sort of).

Are your fingers sore TM?

Nope! I'm a highly trained athlete, I can swype for England!

Oh f*ck.

You're welcome to have a thread all of your own.

rjsterry

Mr Goo wrote:

rjsterry wrote:

Bloody hell, Goo! Yes, BF are far right without a shadow of a doubt. They may be smaller in number and less organised but that's who they are. Their leading members are mostly ex-BNP or do you not think they count as far right either?

Look. I'm merely trying to seek some clarity and balance here. I'm not saying they're not racist or idiots. But if you and others consider them Far Right. Then what were the Nazis? I think it is a perfectly reasonable question to ask. And why isn't or wasn't there the same condemnation of Far Left activists ie Mr Corbyn, for sharing a platform with terrorists. And don't give me the "He is trying to broker peace " bull 5hit. That doesn't wash.
I'm not in support of Trump or Corbyn. I just want a balanced discussion.

I think spectrum is wide enough for BF to be considered far right, and there still be room for organisations even further to the right. Likewise on the left, there is long way to go before you get to the likes of FARC, Shining Path and the Red Army Faction. I think Corbyn has pretty questionable judgement on a lot of things, but that's not remotely equivalent to the kind of flat out racism of BF or Trump.

rick_chasey

Mr Goo wrote:

rjsterry wrote:

Bloody hell, Goo! Yes, BF are far right without a shadow of a doubt. They may be smaller in number and less organised but that's who they are. Their leading members are mostly ex-BNP or do you not think they count as far right either?

Look. I'm merely trying to seek some clarity and balance here. I'm not saying they're not racist or idiots. But if you and others consider them Far Right. Then what were the Nazis?.

Nazis were the most barbaric, violent and destructive organisation Europe had ever seen, and not only plunged Europe into the world’s deadliest war, but also murdered people in the millions purely because of their ethnicity, disability, sexual orientation, or just cos they felt like it.

So murderous were they they had to industrialise the killing.

Just because you aren’t that doesn’t mean you’re not totally sh!t.

veronese68

As I said how far to the left or right something appears depends on where on the spectrum you stand. If Goo thinks Britain First are not far right but Corbyn is a dangerous extremist that says a lot about where on the spectrum Goo stands. He makes Stevo look like a liberal.

mamba80

Rick Chasey wrote:

Mr Goo wrote:

rjsterry wrote:

Bloody hell, Goo! Yes, BF are far right without a shadow of a doubt. They may be smaller in number and less organised but that's who they are. Their leading members are mostly ex-BNP or do you not think they count as far right either?

Look. I'm merely trying to seek some clarity and balance here. I'm not saying they're not racist or idiots. But if you and others consider them Far Right. Then what were the Nazis?.

Nazis were the most barbaric, violent and destructive organisation Europe had ever seen, and not only plunged Europe into the world’s deadliest war, but also murdered people in the millions purely because of their ethnicity, disability, sexual orientation, or just cos they felt like it.

So murderous were they they had to industrialise the killing.

Just because you aren’t that doesn’t mean you’re not totally sh!t.

The Nazi's of the early 30s didnt go around mass exterminating people, they grew into it! once they could act with impunity there was no stopping them, BF would be no different, they are driven by the same populist ideology and hatred, to think otherwise is to ignore the lessons of history.

bianchimoon

mamba80 wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

Mr Goo wrote:

rjsterry wrote:

Bloody hell, Goo! Yes, BF are far right without a shadow of a doubt. They may be smaller in number and less organised but that's who they are. Their leading members are mostly ex-BNP or do you not think they count as far right either?

Look. I'm merely trying to seek some clarity and balance here. I'm not saying they're not racist or idiots. But if you and others consider them Far Right. Then what were the Nazis?.

Nazis were the most barbaric, violent and destructive organisation Europe had ever seen, and not only plunged Europe into the world’s deadliest war, but also murdered people in the millions purely because of their ethnicity, disability, sexual orientation, or just cos they felt like it.

So murderous were they they had to industrialise the killing.

Just because you aren’t that doesn’t mean you’re not totally sh!t.

The Nazi's of the early 30s didnt go around mass exterminating people, they grew into it! once they could act with impunity there was no stopping them, BF would be no different, they are driven by the same populist ideology and hatred, to think otherwise is to ignore the lessons of history.

Agree totally, in the first instance appear to have a rationale, be as reasonable and polite as possible, try to appeal to people on the right of mainstream and once you get a foothold the real agenda can start. Britain First, America First, White first, Humanity last.

surrey_commuter

PhilipPirrip wrote:

Brexit supporters aren't all an homogenous group, a bit like cyclists really, but people with a variety of thoughts and ideas so to infer they as a group have a proximity to BF might satisfy somes prejudices but it would be lazy, dangerous and wrong.

It's no better than someone taking a video of a dutch national fighting and using it as evidence to satisfy their prejudices and their wont to spread hate against all muslims, who again aren't all an homogenous group.

all haddock are fish but not all fish are haddock

tangled_metal

Could any party become tyrants with too much power? If any party controls parliamentary institutions could it become too dangerous. Perhaps not in the nazis way but potentially dangerous outside their country.

Imagine a Trump dictatorship without checks and balances. Even without his right wing tendencies it would be dangerous. Probably more so for those outside of America. That includes their expats.

mr_goo

Rick Chasey wrote:

Mr Goo wrote:

rjsterry wrote:

Bloody hell, Goo! Yes, BF are far right without a shadow of a doubt. They may be smaller in number and less organised but that's who they are. Their leading members are mostly ex-BNP or do you not think they count as far right either?

Look. I'm merely trying to seek some clarity and balance here. I'm not saying they're not racist or idiots. But if you and others consider them Far Right. Then what were the Nazis?.

Nazis were the most barbaric, violent and destructive organisation Europe had ever seen, and not only plunged Europe into the world’s deadliest war, but also murdered people in the millions purely because of their ethnicity, disability, sexual orientation, or just cos they felt like it.

So murderous were they they had to industrialise the killing.

Just because you aren’t that doesn’t mean you’re not totally sh!t.

I understand this. And thank you for your potted history. I had completely forgotten how bad the Nazis were !

But my point which nobody on here has addressed is that the Nazis were and are labelled as Far Right. Therefore I fail to see how idiotic fringe groups like BF or BNP can be given the same label. There is no way any of these would ever gain power, as has been proven in recent years, where their momentum has faltered dramatically and they have reverted to shouting on the sidelines.

BTW. Many on here seem to forget that Uncle Joseph, murdered at least 3 times as many people than Herr Adolf. But because they were his own citizens, it seems to be ok and is forgotten. Politicians and most people just get worked up over the Nazis but not the Communists.

rick_chasey

Mr Goo wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

Mr Goo wrote:

rjsterry wrote:

Bloody hell, Goo! Yes, BF are far right without a shadow of a doubt. They may be smaller in number and less organised but that's who they are. Their leading members are mostly ex-BNP or do you not think they count as far right either?

Look. I'm merely trying to seek some clarity and balance here. I'm not saying they're not racist or idiots. But if you and others consider them Far Right. Then what were the Nazis?.

Nazis were the most barbaric, violent and destructive organisation Europe had ever seen, and not only plunged Europe into the world’s deadliest war, but also murdered people in the millions purely because of their ethnicity, disability, sexual orientation, or just cos they felt like it.

So murderous were they they had to industrialise the killing.

Just because you aren’t that doesn’t mean you’re not totally sh!t.

I understand this. And thank you for your potted history. I had completely forgotten how bad the Nazis were !

But my point which nobody on here has addressed is that the Nazis were and are labelled as Far Right. Therefore I fail to see how idiotic fringe groups like BF or BNP can be given the same label. There is no way any of these would ever gain power, as has been proven in recent years, where their momentum has faltered dramatically and they have reverted to shouting on the sidelines.

BTW. Many on here seem to forget that Uncle Joseph, murdered at least 3 times as many people than Herr Adolf. But because they were his own citizens, it seems to be ok and is forgotten. Politicians and most people just get worked up over the Nazis but not the Communists.

I don't forget that.

I for one have studied and written about Russian Gulags, and spent days and weeks deep underground in archives, looking for 70s translations of gulag bureaucracy papers that were smuggled out.

But just because a group isn't wholey murderous doesn't mean they don't occupy a similar ideological space.

tangled_metal

I think ppl answered you but perhaps not to your satisfaction. Basically there is a view that position on the left/right political spectrum is separate from the heinous acts you have done. It is not the act of killing those outside your grouping that defines you on the political spectrum but the views, opinions and beliefs you hold.

The following is a purely hypothetical example and in no way represents my true views. It's for discussion only.

If I said all blacks should be sent back to Africa I would hold the same views as those who actually did it. There is an equivalency there in views it is just that I've not got the power or courage to actually complete on my rhetoric.

BTW can I stress that this is a hypothetical situation. I do not hold those views. Never will.

nickice

mamba80 wrote:

Tangled Metal wrote:

Seriously you should have been around my work referendum time. They were pretty much homogenous in their racism. Well except the handful of them who were worse. Seriously two of the most rampant Brexit supporters were and still are too the right if BF. They think Trump is not right wing enough. They see Trumps comments as him moving in the right direction but not going far enough.

Whilst it's not the same everywhere with every brexiteer in sure but those I know are like this. Well they were, a lot are now talking differently. They've had their eyes opened by events after the referendum. Whilst still supporting Brexit (they have the view it's too late to pull back from it) they think it's not going to be good now. They're regretting it I guess.

BTW I'm sure you're a more civil Brexit supporter who's capable of critical thought. One without a racist outlook. Indeed as far from a BF supporter as most of us are. However you're not from round here and I reckon you haven't experienced the racism of Brexit supporters in a very Brexit voting constituency which had a very large influx of polish workers.
Was it really ten years back?

Down here there is plenty of support of Trump and i dont know any brexitiers who ve changed their mind either, in fact possibly the opposite.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/po ... 66606.html

only 64% think Trumps proposed ban on muslim immigration is wrong, with 25% in full support..... over 300k signed a petition supporting his visit to the UK.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/02 ... oll-shows/

Outside of the cosmopolitan SE the UK is very different place

To be grudgingly fair to Trump, if he'd genuinely wanted a ban on Muslim immigration, he'd have just banned all Muslims. The ban was for travellers from a relatively small number of countries (many of which are essentially failed states) where background checks couldn't be performed. Of course, I doubt BF supporters saw that nuance.

nickice

Veronese68 wrote:

Mr Goo wrote:

I'm not in support of Trump or Corbyn. I just want a balanced discussion.

Like when people protested against the right wing extremists in Virginia and Trump said there were bad people on both sides?

There were bad people on both sides. Though far more bad people on the white supremacist side. Antifa were there and they are well known for violence and intimidation.

rick_chasey

nickice wrote:

Veronese68 wrote:

Mr Goo wrote:

I'm not in support of Trump or Corbyn. I just want a balanced discussion.

Like when people protested against the right wing extremists in Virginia and Trump said there were bad people on both sides?

There were bad people on both sides. Though far more bad people on the white supremacist side. Antifa were there and they are well known for violence and intimidation.

Because they drove into and murder...oh, wait.

nickice

Rick Chasey wrote:

nickice wrote:

Veronese68 wrote:

Mr Goo wrote:

I'm not in support of Trump or Corbyn. I just want a balanced discussion.

Like when people protested against the right wing extremists in Virginia and Trump said there were bad people on both sides?

There were bad people on both sides. Though far more bad people on the white supremacist side. Antifa were there and they are well known for violence and intimidation.

Because they drove into and murder...oh, wait.

I did say there were more bad people on the white supremacist side.. You do realise that antifa have been labelled domestic terrorists? And antifa's definition of 'fascist' extends to anyone they disagree with. They are a radical anti-captialist organisation.

rick_chasey

The murder was the story though.

Chat about antifa distracts from that in a pure whataboutism move.

nickice

Rick Chasey wrote:

The murder was the story though.

Chat about antifa distracts from that in a pure whataboutism move.

I don't think Donal Trump should have said what he said but he was factually correct. That was the point I was making.

rick_chasey

nickice wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

The murder was the story though.

Chat about antifa distracts from that in a pure whataboutism move.

I don't think Donal Trump should have said what he said but he was factually correct. That was the point I was making.

It's irrelevant though, right?

And, tbh, I don't think he was factually correct in that instance.

And the moral equivalency of the two is also very dubious. Which you, alongside Trump, are currently doing.