Was Lance Armstrong really the best Tour Winner in history?
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What was so unsporting about chasing a breakaway?
Omertà existed Long before LA joined and exists in every sport. If you divulge the secrets of your trade, your peers won't be very pleased with you. As bassons found out.0 -
What was so unsporting about chasing a breakaway?
Omertà existed Long before LA joined and exists in every sport. If you divulge the secrets of your trade, your peers won't be very pleased with you. As bassons found out.
LA only chased down a breakaway because it had Simeoni in it, who had already told to truth about Ferrari in a trial in Italy. It was a personal attack rather than anything to do with racing. He even told the others in the breakway he was only there because of Simeoni and he would drop back if he did.
Bassons didn't divulge secrets he spoke up about cheating in the sport.0 -
Bassons was also a rider who had no interest in riding for anyone but himself, didn't listen to anyone and was generally a pain in the neck. But he's been elevated to sainthood by some, so that's all acceptable behaviour.[url=http://www.bikeradar.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=19708199#p19708199]Richmond Racer 2[/url] wrote:I'm no Lance apologist but omerta was flourishing in cycling long before he came along. If it hadnt been Lance who assumed the role of patron, it would have been someone else through those years. He followed a 'fine' tradition.
Yes, he behaved appallingly to Bassons, but the likes of the Badger wasn't averse to chasing down riders who wouldnt toe his line.
Bassons' erstwhile team mates who refused to talk to him, and even joined in with other teams' riders in giving him hell in races the following season, or just refusing to race in the same line-up, have equal culpability IMO.
He also actually said very little about doping at the time, he just managed to upset Armstrong (easily done)Twitter: @RichN950 -
What was so unsporting about chasing a breakaway?
The yellow jersey doesn't chase breakaways on his own where no one in the breakaway is a threat to them on GC - it's a complete waste of energy.
Armstrong chased that break to prove a point and to bully an individual who had tried to point out the wrong doings of the peloton.0 -
I've been reminiscing on the 1999 season whilst on the turbo of late and given that Festina was just the year before, the number of extra-terrestrial performances was quite something. We had Pantani at Oropa, Armstrong at Sestriere, Vandenbrouke at Avila.0
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Classic. Wonder why people are "obsessed" with doping and then in the very next sentence laud Armstrong's "mental determination and skills", neither of which would have been enough for him to win even a single TdF if he hadn't been doping too.Why are people so obsessed with the doping. No amount of drugs can give you that kind of mental determination and skills to win TdF seven times in a row - arguably the hardest sport there is. Especially so soon after recovering from cancer. I cant think of any other athlete who would even come close.
I'd have thought that if you care so much about "mental determination and skills" you wouldn't want to see their impact on racing totally negated by the abuse of banned substances... but I guess it's OK as long as you like the person that is winning.0 -
I've been reminiscing on the 1999 season whilst on the turbo of late and given that Festina was just the year before, the number of extra-terrestrial performances was quite something. We had Pantani at Oropa, Armstrong at Sestriere, Vandenbrouke at Avila.
Could more be folklore but I heard that after Armstrong's performance in Sestriere the TdF director at the time ( can't remember his name ) walked into the press room and pleaded for the sake of the tour they didn't write anything about the extraordinary performance.0 -
I used to dislike Armstong well before there were suggestions he wasn't clean. I think the thing I disliked most about him at the time was that he was the first to really focus his whole season on the TdF only, not taking the monuments, other grand tours, or even the classics seriously, even though he should be capable of doing well in those other races. It has become received wisdom it's the only way in 'modern cycling', but I'm not convinced. With hindsight I'm not sure it was his biggest sin, but it may well be his most lasting legacy0
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Classic. Wonder why people are "obsessed" with doping and then in the very next sentence laud Armstrong's "mental determination and skills", neither of which would have been enough for him to win even a single TdF if he hadn't been doping too.Why are people so obsessed with the doping. No amount of drugs can give you that kind of mental determination and skills to win TdF seven times in a row - arguably the hardest sport there is. Especially so soon after recovering from cancer. I cant think of any other athlete who would even come close.
I'd have thought that if you care so much about "mental determination and skills" you wouldn't want to see their impact on racing totally negated by the abuse of banned substances... but I guess it's OK as long as you like the person that is winning.
In the bygone era, Doping was an integral part of all sports. Like it or not thats the way it was. Its time to get over it. Just concentrate on their performances on the field. If you feel duped then its your fault for being so gullible.0 -
Don't think anyone is gullible on here, about this.the question that needs answering was about whether he was the best tour rider ever... in terms of getting the stars to align in his favour and using any means necessary to win then yes he was. but it was horrible to watch. A low period for the sport as one persion bullied, lied and cheated his way to 0 wins.
Classic. Wonder why people are "obsessed" with doping and then in the very next sentence laud Armstrong's "mental determination and skills", neither of which would have been enough for him to win even a single TdF if he hadn't been doping too.Why are people so obsessed with the doping. No amount of drugs can give you that kind of mental determination and skills to win TdF seven times in a row - arguably the hardest sport there is. Especially so soon after recovering from cancer. I cant think of any other athlete who would even come close.
I'd have thought that if you care so much about "mental determination and skills" you wouldn't want to see their impact on racing totally negated by the abuse of banned substances... but I guess it's OK as long as you like the person that is winning.
In the bygone era, Doping was an integral part of all sports. Like it or not thats the way it was. Its time to get over it. Just concentrate on their performances on the field. If you feel duped then its your fault for being so gullible.0 -
Nothing to do with me feeling duped or gullible - I'll happily admit I never cared about pro cycling at all until 3 or 4 years ago. Wasn't interested until I started cycling myself. I certainly wasn't sitting there watching Armstrong rack up his wins believing it was all above board, I barely knew who he was.
In the bygone era, Doping was an integral part of all sports. Like it or not thats the way it was. Its time to get over it. Just concentrate on their performances on the field. If you feel duped then its your fault for being so gullible.
Classic. Wonder why people are "obsessed" with doping and then in the very next sentence laud Armstrong's "mental determination and skills", neither of which would have been enough for him to win even a single TdF if he hadn't been doping too.Why are people so obsessed with the doping. No amount of drugs can give you that kind of mental determination and skills to win TdF seven times in a row - arguably the hardest sport there is. Especially so soon after recovering from cancer. I cant think of any other athlete who would even come close.
I'd have thought that if you care so much about "mental determination and skills" you wouldn't want to see their impact on racing totally negated by the abuse of banned substances... but I guess it's OK as long as you like the person that is winning.
I'm just puzzled why people like yourself still seem to think his mental qualities were somehow the key factor in his performances when they clearly weren't. However admirable you feel those qualities were, they weren't enough for him to win without resorting to cheating. I imagine knowing you've got that advantage over everyone else must in turn have been a huge confidence booster, making it even easier for him to act the way he did.0 -
A bit more than just standing by the road and you are right that it is my opinion formed by the facts and the experiences I had by being there. I would agree that any cycle race fan would form the same opinions if they followed the sport for many "Full" seasons without being there to see at close range the suffering in their eyes.standing by the side of the road gives you no more insight into whether a person took drugs or not.
Not sure if it was a cover up but I read Tour De Force by Dan Coyle who was entrenched in the LA camp and that still puts it all down to training and hard work and makes no mention of drugs.
Unless you lived with Big Mig 24/7 you have no more insight into whether he was clean or not, just an opinion.
yes you can state facts to back that up like wins in L'Avenir and Paris-Nice but that just help form opinions not hard facts
I have no Idea what the Tour de Force is and if some twit couldn't see what had happened to LA to become a "Superman" racing cyclist on his bicycle. His sudden inproved performance in the 1999 TDF had only been seen once before with Bjarne Riis in 1996 who finally admitted taking EPO for his Superman performance.
I never saw Indurain ever become a Superman mountain climber because from what I witnessed he just Ground his opponents down and any wheel sucker still there would take the stage win.
I cannot say I enjoyed the LA performances and because the TDF had become so ludicrus I stopped going after 2002 and that year it was only the Team Trial at Château-Thierry and the road to Rouen.
I became a summer regular on the Dauphine-Suisse double with less security and more relaxed.Organiser, National Championship 50 mile Time Trial 19720 -
I don't know, I thought your Fairies and Goblins would give you all the mystical answers about that room of yours.
What does that mean?Remember, I was there while you played with your Fairies etc.
You were in the room with Indurain when he *wasn't* injecting drugs??Organiser, National Championship 50 mile Time Trial 19720 -
Default with my Laptop.Organiser, National Championship 50 mile Time Trial 19720
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Answer is GREEDWhy are people so obsessed with the doping. No amount of drugs can give you that kind of mental determination and skills to win TdF seven times in a row. Especially so soon after recovering from cancer. I cant think of any other athlete who would even come close.
As World Champ in April 1994 in Liege he bemoaned the fact nobody recognised him.
2 years later he had the chance to change that.
The poor dear, he had a ball cut off, thats all, but boy did they make a meal of it with lots and lots of media hype so now he has recognition. That was 19 years ago and he is still a very healthy man.
Ivan Basso had the same operation this summer without the hype and I had a lot more cut out last year but all it is, is a bloody inconvenience.Organiser, National Championship 50 mile Time Trial 19720 -
A bit more than just standing by the road and you are right that it is my opinion formed by the facts and the experiences I had by being there. I would agree that any cycle race fan would form the same opinions if they followed the sport for many "Full" seasons without being there to see at close range the suffering in their eyes.standing by the side of the road gives you no more insight into whether a person took drugs or not.
Not sure if it was a cover up but I read Tour De Force by Dan Coyle who was entrenched in the LA camp and that still puts it all down to training and hard work and makes no mention of drugs.
Unless you lived with Big Mig 24/7 you have no more insight into whether he was clean or not, just an opinion.
yes you can state facts to back that up like wins in L'Avenir and Paris-Nice but that just help form opinions not hard facts
I have no Idea what the Tour de Force is and if some twit couldn't see what had happened to LA to become a "Superman" racing cyclist on his bicycle. His sudden inproved performance in the 1999 TDF had only been seen once before with Bjarne Riis in 1996 who finally admitted taking EPO for his Superman performance.
I never saw Indurain ever become a Superman mountain climber because from what I witnessed he just Ground his opponents down and any wheel sucker still there would take the stage win.
I cannot say I enjoyed the LA performances and because the TDF had become so ludicrus I stopped going after 2002 and that year it was only the Team Trial at Château-Thierry and the road to Rouen.
I became a summer regular on the Dauphine-Suisse double with less security and more relaxed.
As a massive Indurain fan back in the day, I'd love to agree with you: but Big Mig's transformation from MTF grupetto riding solid domestique (admittedly with world-class TT skills) to GT GC contender who could live with the World's best climbers (virtually to a man, part of the rapidly developing intra-team doping regimes being established in the top flight at that time) within 2 years... well, retrospectively, I've got to give that idea a wide berth of credibility.
Fignon's comment of "extraterrestrial" about Indurain's '92 TT performance was, to me, his way of saying we're all on something - but he's got something "other". I remember Banesto refusing to divulge his actual weight and actual power figures at the time, but it's another interesting perspective (but, of course, totally inconclusive of anything) to note that Indurain is now cited as only 1 inch taller than Dumoulin but about 10 kilos heavier in his prime.0 -
In other words (somebody else can do the maths), at 80 kilos, Indurain would have needed to be producing ridiculous amounts of power on, say, Galibier, to contend with the likes of Pantani and Zulle.0
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In other words (somebody else can do the maths), at 80 kilos, Indurain would have needed to be producing ridiculous amounts of power on, say, Galibier, to contend with the likes of Pantani and Zulle.
I would love to know the kind of power he put out on the climb to La Plagne when he simply rode the best climbers in the world off his wheel. He did much the same earlier in the race on a flatter stage that Bruneeyl won, and it's strange in a way that his most dominant win was also his last.0 -
I may be in the minority, but it doesn't bother me in the slightest that LA was a nasty bastard on a bike. It bothers me if anyone cheats as, rightly or wrongly, the authorities set a bench mark in the rules to reflect what is ethical and should define what a human is naturally capable of.
Intimidation 'outside of work' is unforgivable but within the work place of elite sport eg during a race, rugby match, tennis match, boxing, I'm all for getting a mental edge and manipulating your competitors as best you can. I sometimes think that LA is vilified for cheating (good) but more so than other cheats (bad) because he bullied people outside of work (nasty) and was ruthless and manipulative on his bike (good for him). IMHO, these things sometimes all get thrown in the pot to demonize LA.0
