Was Lance Armstrong really the best Tour Winner in history?
Ok, stand by your beds!
As far as the "looking the other way" by the UCI; the reality is that LA didn't crash out, didn't get sick, didn't get caught out in cross winds, never had a mishap or have bad day in seven years. In recent years, this seems to be a charmed life. With the best bike handlers crashing out like Cancellara and Sagan, even good bike handling seem to not keep a rider safe. With Quintana ill and Froome crashing yet again does LA's achievements have some merit?
As far as the "looking the other way" by the UCI; the reality is that LA didn't crash out, didn't get sick, didn't get caught out in cross winds, never had a mishap or have bad day in seven years. In recent years, this seems to be a charmed life. With the best bike handlers crashing out like Cancellara and Sagan, even good bike handling seem to not keep a rider safe. With Quintana ill and Froome crashing yet again does LA's achievements have some merit?
“Life is like riding a bicycle. To keep your balance you must keep moving”- Albert Einstein
"You can't ride the Tour de France on mineral water."
-Jacques Anquetil
"You can't ride the Tour de France on mineral water."
-Jacques Anquetil
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Yeah. On their second Grand Tour of the year. When did Armstrong ever do a second GT?With Quintana ill and Froome crashing yet again does LA's achievements have some merit?
I'll agree with you that there's plenty to learn from him though. As a strategic planner, putting a Grand Tour together, he was second to none.Twitter: @RichN950 -
Absolutely not.
His race calendar was quite limited, he didn't really put himself about throughout the year
His extensive drug regime within his drugged team meant that he was quite likely riding within himself a lot not stressing his body that much and therefore less likely to fall ill. Same goes for Hincapie and his "record" amount of TdF finishes. It's probably easier to do that sort of thing if you aren't on your knees at the end of each stage.
I'll grant you he didn't fall off much and I can't remember him puncturing too often so maybe he mixed "Slime" in with the EPO
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He had the advantage of sitting behind a goofed up train for entire stages and out of the pack so was always out of any likely trouble.It's a little like wrestling a gorilla. You don't quit when you're tired. You quit when the gorilla is tired.0
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I've only just got into cycling so don't know the whole story but am aware he was dopping for a long time - was there no checks in those days? How did he get away with it for so long?0
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the fact is the other GC contenders weren't all doping at that time and none of them had a team of 9 men doping either. Without that the playing field wasn't level. It was skewed to help LA win which he did.
Unfortunately we'll never know how good he really was or wasn't.0 -
Indurain won five in a row, didn't crash or tactically lost time often, plus did win grand tour doubles and world champs podiums0
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Just checking the history books. Seems he has never actually won it..........0
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To be fair, the only reason LA won at all was because Big George kept him safe and guided him to those victories.
The drugs may also have helped.0 -
has anyone ever said he was the best winner ?
He never won the KOM or Green jersey in the same year something Merckx did so surely that would make him better.0 -
[url=http://www.bikeradar.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=19696076#p19696076]The Loyal Lieutenant[/url] wrote:To be fair, the only reason LA won at all was because Big George kept him safe and guided him to those victories.
The drugs may also have helped.
:shock:
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With his sponsors money that he could finesse PED drugs to suit his and his very select team to mollycoddle him for a short summer season to win the main prize each year.[url=http://www.bikeradar.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=19696076#p19696076]The Loyal Lieutenant[/url] wrote:To be fair, the only reason LA won at all was because Big George kept him safe and guided him to those victories. The drugs may also have helped.
Without these PED's he would have been a pretty fair rider to win many One Day races including another World Championship perhaps and so be able to hold his head high and not (as now) have no respect from the cycling world.
His efforts after his cancer operation have been erased because they are False.
Big George Hincapie was an experienced all round rider on the Belgium races, which Armstrong selected for his team to protect him but the PED give away was George winning a High Mountain Stage in the TDF.Organiser, National Championship 50 mile Time Trial 19720 -
I don't condone any of the bullying but physically he must have been one of the best GC man of his generation, weren't they all on the juice at that time?0
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I don't condone any of the bullying but physically he must have been one of the best GC man of his generation, weren't they all on the juice at that time?
The trouble was with EPO if you were an average rider with the 50% limit at the time you could improve a lot more with PEDs than a rider who was already a great rider like Jan who had higher values and so could only increase by a smaller percentage.
It wasn't a level playing field just because they were all on it. Add in that after Festina the teams stopped for a year, except for Postal who put the whole team on it. Also in 2000it's rumoured only the GC men went back on it, but again Postal had 9 men on it.0 -
No other rider was as good at winning the Tour.
Beyond that it's not all that easy to compare generations.
I reckon Indurain would have struggled more on this years' TdF parcours than Lance for example.
Merckx is Greatest Rider Ever and he won the Tour so he's obvious candidate for best rider to win the Tour.0 -
It is a bit weird that a lot of riders in the 90's died from using so much EPO so it wasn't as though other riders were not maxed out. Also, as Dumoulin has proven, Greg Lemond in 1989 and LA in 2003 proves that if you have the legs then you can win a Tour on your todd. It's just if you need a bottle then you get a bit stuck but these days there's a Team soigner to hand a bottle out on the side of the road.
As mentioned above by another, the others weren't riding Panagua. The 2000 Tour, the top ten riders on GC were all involved in naughties and the only riders not caught for doping were Escartin and Nardello, and of course Armstrong admitted to doping rather than being caught. Mapei and Kelme had their own brushes with doping so these two weren't too far from naughties either.
LA did also make appearance through the season at the early season warm up races like the Volta ao Algarve and then he had a good peak at the Spring Classics and putting good results in at the Amstel Gold, to then ride the Dauphine. Also he was paid to win the Tour and as proven; riding the Giro before is not a good idea.
I personally think that LA has to have some merit. The UCI is equal to blame and it seems highly likely that they were in bed together. As far as I can see, the 1998 Tour was a PR disaster for Cycling and LA was the fairytale story that Cycling needed to forget the Festina Affair. I really think that his story was hatched up between LA and the UCI.
As for Indurain, he was a master in diplomacy and if LA played it the way Indurain had then he may have had kept this Tour victories and friends and his money.“Life is like riding a bicycle. To keep your balance you must keep moving”- Albert Einstein
"You can't ride the Tour de France on mineral water."
-Jacques Anquetil0 -
I think lance was. Merckx took drugs, I'd pleasure a horse if big mig was not on the gear. I've said it before lance would still be walking around a 7 time winner if he wasn't a massive bellend why do you think big mig has got away with iteating parmos since 1981
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The races he keeps before his ban, leave an impressive palmares, but I do notice there was an early warning sign, in 93' he won the Thrift Drug Classic according to wiki,0
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it's the great unknown though isn't it. Yes Merckx took gear and so did Big Mig and Ullrich and others but it's been stated that EPO and blood doping along with HGH was a massive game changer. Instead of the drugs just helping the strongest survive it enabled also rans to become winners.
LA was on the gear in 96 what results did he achieve that year in stage races ? Can't remember which year exactly it was he stopped racing due to cancer.0 -
I think lance was. Merckx took drugs, I'd pleasure a horse if big mig was not on the gear. I've said it before lance would still be walking around a 7 time winner if he wasn't a massive bellend why do you think big mig has got away with it
Also because many pharmaceuticals that became banned PED were not regulated or forbidden at the time of Big Mig. He tested positive for Clenbuterol (I think - it was one of the steroids) but it was not proscribed at the time he took it - it was prescribed by his Doctor. A while later and he would have been banned for it.0 -
Armstrong was a 'super-responder' in that because he didn't posses the greatest VO2 Max (allegedly pretty average), the PEDs gave him a 6-10% boost whereas other riders it would only be 1-2%. As for his 1-day record, it was pretty average - 1 Worlds and Fleche-Wallone is hardly 'great'. For example, he got turned-over year-after year in Amstel Gold and L-B-L, when others were on the level PED-wise. The problem was that the English-speaking media were so far up his ar$e, then you'll find little objective reporting at the time, mainly because of the threats of lawsuits, just leaving a legacy of syncophantic drivel.Make mine an Italian, with Campagnolo on the side..0
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the answer to the original question is a resounding no, he was a specialist in all senses of the word but not a patch on the GT palmares of contador.0
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Armstrong was a 'super-responder' in that because he didn't posses the greatest VO2 Max (allegedly pretty average), the PEDs gave him a 6-10% boost whereas other riders it would only be 1-2%. As for his 1-day record, it was pretty average - 1 Worlds and Fleche-Wallone is hardly 'great'. For example, he got turned-over year-after year in Amstel Gold and L-B-L, when others were on the level PED-wise. The problem was that the English-speaking media were so far up his ar$e, then you'll find little objective reporting at the time, mainly because of the threats of lawsuits, just leaving a legacy of syncophantic drivel.
THIS IS true0 -
Ok, stand by your beds!
As far as the "looking the other way" by the UCI; the reality is that LA didn't crash out, didn't get sick, didn't get caught out in cross winds, never had a mishap or have bad day in seven years. In recent years, this seems to be a charmed life. With the best bike handlers crashing out like Cancellara and Sagan, even good bike handling seem to not keep a rider safe. With Quintana ill and Froome crashing yet again does LA's achievements have some merit?
Coppi, Merckx, Indurain, Hinault all significantly better I'd say. Take LA off sauce and he was pretty average at most things except cheating and bullying.Bianchi Infinito CV
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Ok, stand by your beds!
As far as the "looking the other way" by the UCI; the reality is that LA didn't crash out, didn't get sick, didn't get caught out in cross winds, never had a mishap or have bad day in seven years. In recent years, this seems to be a charmed life. With the best bike handlers crashing out like Cancellara and Sagan, even good bike handling seem to not keep a rider safe. With Quintana ill and Froome crashing yet again does LA's achievements have some merit?
Coppi, Merckx, Indurain, Hinault all significantly better I'd say. Take LA off sauce and he was pretty average at most things except cheating and bullying.
LeMond might have been the greatest of them all had he not been shot by his brother in law.0 -
In terms of results, Hinault is the best Grand Tour rider. He started 13 of them. Finished 12, with ten wins and two seconds. Even the one he quit, he quit in the leader's jersey.
This^0 -
In terms of results, Hinault is the best Grand Tour rider. He started 13 of them. Finished 12, with ten wins and two seconds. Even the one he quit, he quit in the leader's jersey.
This^
Yep, that's pretty compelling.It's only a bit of sport, Mun. Relax and enjoy the racing.0 -
Not just that, but his successes in the one day classics as well. He targeted certain races and won them (often)...In terms of results, Hinault is the best Grand Tour rider. He started 13 of them. Finished 12, with ten wins and two seconds. Even the one he quit, he quit in the leader's jersey.
This^
Yep, that's pretty compelling.0
