Was Lance Armstrong really the best Tour Winner in history?
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Simple, He didn't use EPO so nothing to answer, but maybe Amphetamines, like everybody else probably did. Amphetamines didn't make "Supermen" out of ordinary riders like EPO did to Bjarne Riis, Lance Armstrong and other Grupeto Mountain climbers. (don't argue that point because I am a witness to their grovelling up mountains before they became Supermen Rubish.I think lance was. Merckx took drugs, I'd pleasure a horse if big mig was not on the gear. I've said it before lance would still be walking around a 7 time winner if he wasn't a massive bellend why do you think big mig has got away with it
This is one of my favourites when discussing Armstrong who knew his limitations about climbing mountainns and how he hoped to win a "Transitional" stage between the mountains in 1995. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qH3StBB58Yk That should answer the 7 times rubish because he had been in the European Peloton 3 years and knew he couldn't climb mountains with the best.
A better question is why those EPO Frauds "Duetsche Telekom" got away with their stardom.??
They actually confessed and nothing has been done, so a much better question. ?The Guardian wrote:The powerhouse Team Deutsche Telekom (later T-Mobile) in its heyday starred the German rider Jan Ullrich, the chief challenger to Lance Armstrong during his dominance of the Tour de France, and popular sprinter Erik Zabel. In 1996, wearing Telekom colours, Bjarne Riis won the Tour – and also the sobriquet "Mr Sixty Percent", for his artificially elevated haematocrit level; he later confessed to doping during his career. A decade on, "Der Kaiser" Ullrich was banned from the Tour, and it later emerged that there'd been systematic doping on the squad.Organiser, National Championship 50 mile Time Trial 19720 -
I'd argue that yes - he was the best Tour winner of all time.
Simply put - that was what he set out to achieve and he made it so that it was near impossible for him to lose.
Obviously his palmares doesn't line up to the proper greats but in terms of the tour he went and won it 7 times in a row, no one even got close to that did they?0 -
Simple, He didn't use EPO so nothing to answer, but maybe Amphetamines, like everybody else probably did.I think lance was. Merckx took drugs, I'd pleasure a horse if big mig was not on the gear. I've said it before lance would still be walking around a 7 time winner if he wasn't a massive bellend why do you think big mig has got away with it
Sorry, are you saying you don't think Indurain took EPO? :shock:0 -
I've only just got into cycling so don't know the whole story but am aware he was dopping for a long time - was there no checks in those days? How did he get away with it for so long?
Because the tests aren't perfect, he knew the flaws with the testing and how to work the system. Coupled with the ability to silence anyone who spoke out.0 -
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I'd argue that yes - he was the best Tour winner of all time.
Simply put - that was what he set out to achieve and he made it so that it was near impossible for him to lose.
Obviously his palmares doesn't line up to the proper greats but in terms of the tour he went and won it 7 times in a row, no one even got close to that did they?
Surely that's a bit like saying Al Capone was the most tax efficient businessman of his time. You could argue that Armstrong wouldn't have made it to 7 Tour wins on the bike if he hadn't ruined the lives of Lemond, The Andreus, O'Reilly, Bassons, Simeoni etc
Any other Tour winner have that element in their palmares?0 -
Definitely, without any doubt.
Sorry, are you saying you don't think Indurain took EPO? :shock:
Simple, He didn't use EPO so nothing to answer, but maybe Amphetamines, like everybody else probably did.I think lance was. Merckx took drugs, I'd pleasure a horse if big mig was not on the gear. I've said it before lance would still be walking around a 7 time winner if he wasn't a massive bellend why do you think big mig has got away with it
This old theory has been proved to be false and there is not a shred of evidence to prove otherwise and I still await some bright spark to produce something. ?
He probably took less drugs than Greg Lemond.
Organiser, National Championship 50 mile Time Trial 19720 -
Definitely, without any doubt.
Sorry, are you saying you don't think Indurain took EPO? :shock:
Simple, He didn't use EPO so nothing to answer, but maybe Amphetamines, like everybody else probably did.I think lance was. Merckx took drugs, I'd pleasure a horse if big mig was not on the gear. I've said it before lance would still be walking around a 7 time winner if he wasn't a massive bellend why do you think big mig has got away with it
This old theory has been proved to be false and there is not a shred of evidence to prove otherwise and I still await some bright spark to produce something. ?
He probably took less drugs than Greg Lemond.
http://www.theguardian.com/sport/story/0,3604,388708,00.html
But you will, of course, choose to ignore it. That's even before we get the links to the dodgy doctors.0 -
1996 he bailed out of the Infamous Tour de France and we thought he had got Wet through with several days of rain and decided to call it a day. He had won La Flèche Wallonne and 2nd Liège–Bastogne–Liège that year.LA was on the gear in 96 what results did he achieve that year in stage races ? Can't remember which year exactly it was he stopped racing due to cancer.
He went back again to the USA and they found he had cancer so they operated on his testicles that year and was back in Europe in 1998 racing to 4th place in the Vuelta.Organiser, National Championship 50 mile Time Trial 19720 -
Utterly depends on your outlook on drugs...
If you can overlook the drugs, then it's pretty clear he's the best. No one has been able to win two in a row following him, let alone 7. Lance was able to lock the tour down in manner which even the supposedly robotic Sky fail to do.
If Alberto hadn't had his troubles (first with astana and then with getting caught) then maybe he'd be a top tour winner, but that's not what happened.You live and learn. At any rate, you live0 -
Ignore what, the same decayed crap.
http://www.theguardian.com/sport/story/0,3604,388708,00.html
Definitely, without any doubt.
Sorry, are you saying you don't think Indurain took EPO? :shock:
Simple, He didn't use EPO so nothing to answer, but maybe Amphetamines, like everybody else probably did.I think lance was. Merckx took drugs, I'd pleasure a horse if big mig was not on the gear. I've said it before lance would still be walking around a 7 time winner if he wasn't a massive bellend why do you think big mig has got away with it
This old theory has been proved to be false and there is not a shred of evidence to prove otherwise and I still await some bright spark to produce something. ?
He probably took less drugs than Greg Lemond.
But you will, of course, choose to ignore it. That's even before we get the links to the dodgy doctors.
I said the old theory so you dig up the "I think so" of Thomas Davy who (according to other DS's at the time stated) he wasn't good enough for their teams.
Next thing you will offer is the "Bus Spotter" evidence in Italy.
Something New is required to make your argument. Christ you chew the cud longer than a cow.Organiser, National Championship 50 mile Time Trial 19720 -
There's no point arguing with you. You'll bang on and on about Telekom but ignore the fact that Indurain was suddenly transformed from decent domestique to Tour winner just as some riders, mainly with the assistance of Conconi and Ferrari, started using EPO.
The reason no-one has gone after Indurain is a) because he's a Spanish national hero so there is no appetite to tackle his links to known doping doctors and tarnish his image and b) because he was humble and generous he didn't make enemies so no-one feels the need to bring him down.0 -
There's no point arguing with you. You'll bang on and on about Telekom but ignore the fact that Indurain was suddenly transformed from decent domestique to Tour winner just as some riders, mainly with the assistance of Conconi and Ferrari, started using EPO.
The reason no-one has gone after Indurain is a) because he's a Spanish national hero so there is no appetite to tackle his links to known doping doctors and tarnish his image and b) because he was humble and generous he didn't make enemies so no-one feels the need to bring him down.
You're wasting your breath. He won't listen to logic on this one.It's a little like wrestling a gorilla. You don't quit when you're tired. You quit when the gorilla is tired.0 -
I certainly don't suggest Indurain was clean, and your post is spot on, like often, apoart from the bit in bold; Indurain was not a 'nobody turned winner' story. He won the Tour de l'Avenir in '86, Catalunya in '88, and Paris-Nice in 89 and 90. Tour de France GC results don't tell the whole story for beginning riders. This matters, as an overly simplisticly observed 'transformation' is nowadays sometimes used as reason fro suspicion (not by you, to be clear).There's no point arguing with you. You'll bang on and on about Telekom but ignore the fact that Indurain was suddenly transformed from decent domestique to Tour winner just as some riders, mainly with the assistance of Conconi and Ferrari, started using EPO.
The reason no-one has gone after Indurain is a) because he's a Spanish national hero so there is no appetite to tackle his links to known doping doctors and tarnish his image and b) because he was humble and generous he didn't make enemies so no-one feels the need to bring him down.0 -
I would agree with you if you had any Logic on this Indurain subject.You're wasting your breath. He won't listen to logic on this one.
I have challenged the whole forum (over the years) to find any further evidence that Indurain suddenly became a Superman like Bjarne Riis and Armstrong did by using EPO.
The logic (as FJS has pointed out) is that Indurain was a far better team domestique than those two, as he progressed through the ranks of the peloton from his amatuer winning days to that of a Double GT winner in one year.
I am prepared to listen to "New" evidence but all I read is hearsay and inuendo by using old useless articles.
As a Salesman I once knew said, "If you throw enough shyte at the wall, then some of it will stick"
IMO - Bjarne Riis, Armstrong and Ullrich are the WORST winners of the Tour de France and they are worth nothing more than if they used motorbikes while in the peloton.Organiser, National Championship 50 mile Time Trial 19720 -
[url=http://www.bikeradar.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=19696076#p19696076]The Loyal Lieutenant[/url] wrote:To be fair, the only reason LA won at all was because Big George kept him safe and guided him to those victories.
The drugs may also have helped.
Big time
Contador is the Greatest0 -
I would agree with you if you had any Logic on this Indurain subject.You're wasting your breath. He won't listen to logic on this one.
I have challenged the whole forum (over the years) to find any further evidence that Indurain suddenly became a Superman like Bjarne Riis and Armstrong did by using EPO.
The logic (as FJS has pointed out) is that Indurain was a far better team domestique than those two, as he progressed through the ranks of the peloton from his amatuer winning days to that of a Double GT winner in one year.
I am prepared to listen to "New" evidence but all I read is hearsay and inuendo by using old useless articles.
As a Salesman I once knew said, "If you throw enough shyte at the wall, then some of it will stick"
IMO - Bjarne Riis, Armstrong and Ullrich are the WORST winners of the Tour de France and they are worth nothing more than if they used motorbikes while in the peloton.
Indurain's progression in Grand Tours:
Grand Tour 1984 1985 1986 1987 1988 1989 1990 1991 1992 1993 1994 1995 1996
Giro — — — — — — — — 1 1 3 — —
Tour — WD WD 97 47 17 10 1 1 1 1 1 11
Vuelta WD 84 92 WD WD WD 7 2 — — — — WD
To progress from 97th to 1st in four years just at the point that EPO is taking hold in the peloton and speeds are going way up is to quote Beelzebub, "Not normal". This coincided with the beginning of his association with Conconi (from 87), the man who pioneered EPO use in endurance athletes.
I don't particularly want a witch hunt, but you need to look objectively at this one.It's a little like wrestling a gorilla. You don't quit when you're tired. You quit when the gorilla is tired.0 -
how about his progress in week long date races. he won L'Avenie and also Paris Nice early on in his career so there were signs he was a stage racer0
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how about his progress in week long date races. he won L'Avenie and also Paris Nice early on in his career so there were signs he was a stage racer
He won Paris Nice for the first time in 1989 (breaking Kelly's stranglehold on the race), aged 25. He had already been a professional for 5 years.
It was not a donkey to racehorse transformation, but a man that size should not have been able to shell out the likes of Herrera and Hampsten on high mountain passes.It's a little like wrestling a gorilla. You don't quit when you're tired. You quit when the gorilla is tired.0 -
Indurain's progression in Grand Tours:
Grand Tour 1984 1985 1986 1987 1988 1989 1990 1991 1992 1993 1994 1995 1996
Giro — — — — — — — — 1 1 3 — —
Tour — WD WD 97 47 17 10 1 1 1 1 1 11
Vuelta WD 84 92 WD WD WD 7 2 — — — — WD
To progress from 97th to 1st in four years just at the point that EPO is taking hold in the peloton and speeds are going way up is to quote Beelzebub, "Not normal". This coincided with the beginning of his association with Conconi (from 87), the man who pioneered EPO use in endurance athletes.
I don't particularly want a witch hunt, but you need to look objectively at this one.
Shame he never won that Vuelta in '91 - that would have been an insanely good 5-year stretch (including a couple of Catalunyas and World TT).0 -
Ignoring weight - and the He Must Have Been! Vs Prove it! doping argument - surely Indurain generated the most power of any Tour winner in absolute terms over, let's say, 1 hour (to pick an arbitrary duration)?0
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Ignoring weight - and the He Must Have Been! Vs Prove it! doping argument - surely Indurain generated the most power of any Tour winner in absolute terms over, let's say, 1 hour (to pick an arbitrary duration)?
On the road during a race possibly - but just noting Wiggins comprehensively beat his distance over, let's say 1 hour (to pick an arbitrary duration)
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Oh yes, lets be objective while Indurain was a young domestique in those 4 years.
Indurain's progression in Grand Tours:As a Salesman I once knew said, "If you throw enough shyte at the wall, then some of it will stick"
IMO - Bjarne Riis, Armstrong and Ullrich are the WORST winners of the Tour de France and they are worth nothing more than if they used motorbikes while in the peloton.
Grand Tour 1984 1985 1986 1987 1988 1989 1990 1991 1992 1993 1994 1995 1996
Giro — — — — — — — — 1 1 3 — —
Tour — WD WD 97 47 17 10 1 1 1 1 1 11
Vuelta WD 84 92 WD WD WD 7 2 — — — — WD
be iting
To progress from 97th to 1st in four years just at the point that EPO is taking hold in the peloton "Not normal". Conconi (from 87), the man who pioneered EPO use in endurance athletes.
I don't particularly want a witch hunt, but you need to look objectively at this one.
In 1984 he rode the Olympic Games in Los Angeles and then turned professional on 4 September for Reynolds at 20 years old. He worked for Pedro Delgado and learned about Pro Racing in that time when in 1990 he spent so much time waiting for Delgado who only finished 4th and Indurain was 10th and that, at the start of the 1991 TDF.
Banesto couldn't answer who their Team Leader was and said whoever was the strongest, would then be their leader.
Inurain was a good mountain climber and the many stages he led other riders to the top so they could sprint for a stage win. It made history if he ever got dropped on a mountain.
Do you think that objectively will satisfy your puzzlement and inuendo when others that had needs to go to Conconi for ways to beat him.
Christ, if Indurain had done more than Conconi's Test and taken his EPO Juice then the Tour de France would have been far more Farcical than what Riis/Ullrich/Zabel/Armstrong did or Berzin/Argentin.
Just think of Indurain with that Conconi Juice overtaking all the Eddy Merckx records or think about what could have been if Merckx had had that juice. Organiser, National Championship 50 mile Time Trial 19720 -
Armstrong hit the deck a few times - the handlebars on a spectators bag incident is the one that stands out the most. However his dominate strength (drug fueled) enabled him to chase back on. He was usually at the front of the Peloton so avoiding a number of incidents. He was 'respected' or feared in the peloton so that probably helped avoid people taking him off. Also he was actually a bloody good bike handler - remember the off-road cyclo cross over a field after Beloki's career ending crash. Someone above pointed out that if he wasn't n the limit then he would be less likely to get sick. He was also incredibly mentally strong (some might say psychopathically so!)
So he was brilliant, but sadly like an evil genius. The trouble with all this is that is is impossible to actually compare cheats with non-cheats.0 -
There's clearly nothing suspicious about the heaviest Tour winner of the modern era winning when EPO was taking hold of the peloton. He was just a natural.0
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There's clearly nothing suspicious about the heaviest Tour winner of the modern era winning when EPO was taking hold of the peloton. He was just a natural.
Interesting read in Procycling this month, where they interview a selection of domestiques on their views. Mick Rogers makes an interesting observation that anyone over about 67kg can't win a GT.
What would his views be on an 80kg winner?It's a little like wrestling a gorilla. You don't quit when you're tired. You quit when the gorilla is tired.0 -
I still say Armstrong in his pomp was unbeatable. 7 in a row is quite something. 21 weeks!
Agreed. I think you can't compare eras and have to forget about the doping, so need to look at the raw numbers. He totally controlled the race for seven years. Most dominant GT stranglehold since Binda.
This does not make him a better rider than Merckx, Coppi, Hinault etc. just better at winning the Tour.It's a little like wrestling a gorilla. You don't quit when you're tired. You quit when the gorilla is tired.0 -
Oh yes there is and "Perfofmances" prove it.So he was brilliant, but sadly like an evil genius. The trouble with all this is that is is impossible to actually compare cheats with non-cheats.
On the same roads in the same race you have Indurain being being outclassed by (drug EPO cheats) Bjarne Riis and many other proven druggies seen in the 1994 TDF.
1 Bjarne Riis (DEN) Telekom 95h 57' 16"
2 Jan Ullrich (GER) Telekom +1' 41"
3 Richard Virenque (FRA) Festina +4' 37"
4 Laurent Dufaux (SUI) Festina +5' 53"
5 Peter Luttenberger (AUT) Carrera +7' 07"
6 Luc Leblanc (FRA) Polti +10' 03"
7 Piotr Ugrumov (LAT) Roslotto-ZG Mobili +10' 04"
Also the EPO drug laden 1996 clasification winners.
Points Erik Zabel ‡ (Germany) (Team Telekom)
Mountains Richard Virenque (France) (Festina)
Youth Jan Ullrich (Germany) (Team Telekom
Again on the same roads in the same race you have Indurain being outclassed by (drug EPO cheats) Evgeni Berzin and a whole host of Pink Jersey holders from stage 2 to the end.
Funny how your biased little minds work, that when confronted with "Facts" that you always change the subject to a parallel subject where you can continue inuendo.
I've said it before that "IF" Riis/Ullrich/Armstrong had had no EPO then they would have needed Motorbikes to achieve their results and the means to control the peloton. They were rubish GT riders.Organiser, National Championship 50 mile Time Trial 19720 -
Oh yes there is and "Perfofmances" prove it.So he was brilliant, but sadly like an evil genius. The trouble with all this is that is is impossible to actually compare cheats with non-cheats.
On the same roads in the same race you have Indurain being being outclassed by (drug EPO cheats) Bjarne Riis and many other proven druggies seen in the 1994 TDF.
1 Bjarne Riis (DEN) Telekom 95h 57' 16"
2 Jan Ullrich (GER) Telekom +1' 41"
3 Richard Virenque (FRA) Festina +4' 37"
4 Laurent Dufaux (SUI) Festina +5' 53"
5 Peter Luttenberger (AUT) Carrera +7' 07"
6 Luc Leblanc (FRA) Polti +10' 03"
7 Piotr Ugrumov (LAT) Roslotto-ZG Mobili +10' 04"
Also the EPO drug laden 1996 clasification winners.
Points Erik Zabel ‡ (Germany) (Team Telekom)
Mountains Richard Virenque (France) (Festina)
Youth Jan Ullrich (Germany) (Team Telekom
Again on the same roads in the same race you have Indurain being outclassed by (drug EPO cheats) Evgeni Berzin and a whole host of Pink Jersey holders from stage 2 to the end.
Funny how your biased little minds work, that when confronted with "Facts" that you always change the subject to a parallel subject where you can continue inuendo.
I've said it before that "IF" Riis/Ullrich/Armstrong had had no EPO then they would have needed Motorbikes to achieve their results and the means to control the peloton. They were rubish GT riders.
You mean 1996 TDF. Right? Luttenberger and Piotr Ugrumov never tested positive.
I guess they were clean and better than Indurain then.It's a little like wrestling a gorilla. You don't quit when you're tired. You quit when the gorilla is tired.0
