Was Lance Armstrong really the best Tour Winner in history?
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I still say Armstrong in his pomp was unbeatable. 7 in a row is quite something. 21 weeks!
Agreed. I think you can't compare eras and have to forget about the doping, so need to look at the raw numbers. He totally controlled the race for seven years. Most dominant GT stranglehold since Binda.
This does not make him a better rider than Merckx, Coppi, Hinault etc. just better at winning the Tour.
Of course. You can compare in their respective contexts. Armstrong physically and mentally annihilated any and all rivals.
Can't think of a rider better at getting rivals to be mentally defeated long before they physically have.0 -
I still say Armstrong in his pomp was unbeatable. 7 in a row is quite something. 21 weeks!
Agreed. I think you can't compare eras and have to forget about the doping, so need to look at the raw numbers. He totally controlled the race for seven years. Most dominant GT stranglehold since Binda.
This does not make him a better rider than Merckx, Coppi, Hinault etc. just better at winning the Tour.
Of course. You can compare in their respective contexts. Armstrong physically and mentally annihilated any and all rivals.
Can't think of a rider better at getting rivals to be mentally defeated long before they physically have.
Merckx? On any terrain and in any race.
Hinault - until Fignon won in his absence
Indurain - until Riis took the fight to himIt's a little like wrestling a gorilla. You don't quit when you're tired. You quit when the gorilla is tired.0 -
That was more their pure physical supremacy.
there are so many instances of riders not sticking it to Armstrong for no good reason other than he had gotten to them.
Merckx didn't have that. Hinault did a bit. Indurain didn't0 -
That's what the Cycling magazines were saying at the time with many diagrams to illustrate the facts from his days as an Amatuer.Ignoring weight - and the He Must Have Been! Vs Prove it! doping argument - surely Indurain generated the most power of any Tour winner in absolute terms ?
While using power in his Time Trials or cadence in the mountains they showed his oxygen input to power output compared to other top riders as being much higher.Organiser, National Championship 50 mile Time Trial 19720 -
I'd agree with all of the above about LA (and Mig being mucky, didn't they test all of banesto and the haemocrit results were all between 48.5 and 49.5%? so of course they were allowed to continue)
but given that there have been a lot of crashes recently and the more senior riders commenting that the DSs instructions, riders with overconfidence and the lack of awareness and DSs ordering everyone forward at inopportune times causing mayhem... maybe LA crashed less because there were fewer crashes?"I get paid to make other people suffer on my wheel, how good is that"
--Jens Voight0 -
I'd agree with all of the above about LA (and Mig being mucky, didn't they test all of banesto and the haemocrit results were all between 48.5 and 49.5%? so of course they were allowed to continue)
but given that there have been a lot of crashes recently and the more senior riders commenting that the DSs instructions, riders with overconfidence and the lack of awareness and DSs ordering everyone forward at inopportune times causing mayhem... maybe LA crashed less because there were fewer crashes?
There's always been lots of crashes. Look at Tyler Hamilton, Kloden, Beloki all crashed badly at some point during Armstrong's reign. Two abandoned, the other was a nut case and continued, but it killed his chances.It's a little like wrestling a gorilla. You don't quit when you're tired. You quit when the gorilla is tired.0 -
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Correct :- 1996 Tour de France with the pink Jersey's of the 1994 Giro d'Italia.
You mean 1996 TDF. Right? Luttenberger and Piotr Ugrumov never tested positive.On the same roads in the same race you have Indurain being being outclassed by (drug EPO cheats) Bjarne Riis and many other proven druggies seen in the 1996 TDF.
1 Bjarne Riis (DEN) Telekom 95h 57' 16"
2 Jan Ullrich (GER) Telekom +1' 41"
3 Richard Virenque (FRA) Festina +4' 37"
4 Laurent Dufaux (SUI) Festina +5' 53"
5 Peter Luttenberger (AUT) Carrera +7' 07
6 Luc Leblanc (FRA) Polti +10' 03"
7 Piotr Ugrumov (LAT) Roslotto-ZG Mobili +10' 04"
Also the EPO drug laden 1996 clasification winners.
Points Erik Zabel ‡ (Germany) (Team Telekom)
Mountains Richard Virenque (France) (Festina)
Youth Jan Ullrich (Germany) (Team Telekom
Again on the same roads in the same race you have Indurain being outclassed by (drug EPO cheats) Evgeni Berzin and a whole host of Pink Jersey holders from stage 2 to the end.
I've said it before that "IF" Riis/Ullrich/Armstrong had had no EPO then they would have needed Motorbikes to achieve their results and the means to control the peloton. They were rubish GT riders.
I guess they were clean and better than Indurain then.
Both are dubious to be clean
My memory is that Luttenberger was popped for drugs after his outstanding day in the Tour de Suisse but cannot verify it now. He was riding for Carrera Jeans and Francesco Conconi, a professor at the University of Ferrara was involved with administering EPO to riders on the Carrera Jeans team.
Piotr Ugrumov had his successes in 1994-1995 with Argentin's EPO, Gewiss-Ballan team where he continued that team's all conquering performances by being 2nd in the 1994 TDF.
He made the climb to Morzine-Avoriaz faster than anybody in history including Bernhard Hinault.Organiser, National Championship 50 mile Time Trial 19720 -
Correct :- 1996 Tour de France with the pink Jersey's of the 1994 Giro d'Italia.
Both are dubious to be clean
My memory is that Luttenberger was popped for drugs after his outstanding day in the Tour de Suisse but cannot verify it now. He was riding for Carrera Jeans and Francesco Conconi, a professor at the University of Ferrara was involved with administering EPO to riders on the Carrera Jeans team.
Piotr Ugrumov had his successes in 1994-1995 with Argentin's EPO, Gewiss-Ballan team where he continued that team's all conquering performances by being 2nd in the 1994 TDF.
He made the climb to Morzine-Avoriaz faster than anybody in history including Bernhard Hinault.
Conconi eh?
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/report-indurain-and-banesto-were-conconi-clients/
For more Banesto EPO see here:
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/french-senate-releases-positive-epo-cases-from-1998-tour-de-france/
Olano and Beltran both popped. Olano took over team leadership of Banesto from Indurain.It's a little like wrestling a gorilla. You don't quit when you're tired. You quit when the gorilla is tired.0 -
Ah, so you found the relevance of Piotr Ugrumov and Proffesor Conconi. Well done.
Conconi eh?
Correct :- 1996 Tour de France with the pink Jersey's of the 1994 Giro d'Italia.
Both are dubious to be clean
My memory is that Luttenberger was popped for drugs after his outstanding day in the Tour de Suisse but cannot verify it now. He was riding for Carrera Jeans and Francesco Conconi, a professor at the University of Ferrara was involved with administering EPO to riders on the Carrera Jeans team.
Piotr Ugrumov had his successes in 1994-1995 with Argentin's EPO, Gewiss-Ballan team where he continued that team's all conquering performances by being 2nd in the 1994 TDF.
He made the climb to Morzine-Avoriaz faster than anybody in history including Bernhard Hinault.
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/report-indurain-and-banesto-were-conconi-clients/
Note this was 1998 and they said Jan Ullrich failed twice. ?For more Banesto EPO see here:
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/french-senate-releases-positive-epo-cases-from-1998-tour-de-france/
Olano and Beltran both popped. Olano took over team leadership of Banesto from Indurain.
Indurain had long retired by then.
You all need to be careful about "Team Banesto" and the follow up "Team iBanesto.com" which became the team name but with the same colours, after Indurain retired and some negative results happened.Organiser, National Championship 50 mile Time Trial 19720 -
But the management remained exactly the same.
How can you accuse Carrera of being dodgy because of their links to Conconi, given that Banesto (and Indurain specifically) had exactly the same links?
That cognitive dissonance is doing my head in.0 -
Heh, that was a good can of worms!0
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But Indurain wasn't there for the dot com team.But the management remained exactly the same.
That cognitive dissonance is doing my head in.
The Banesto bus was spotted in the early 1990's at the University when Conconi was thought to be respectable with his testing proceedures. Indurain was never seen to have any connection after that test unlike so many other Pro riders.
Your head problems have been brought on by yourself with not being able to accept the facts. sorryOrganiser, National Championship 50 mile Time Trial 19720 -
It's a little like wrestling a gorilla. You don't quit when you're tired. You quit when the gorilla is tired.0 -
Definitely, without any doubt.
Sorry, are you saying you don't think Indurain took EPO? :shock:
Simple, He didn't use EPO so nothing to answer, but maybe Amphetamines, like everybody else probably did.I think lance was. Merckx took drugs, I'd pleasure a horse if big mig was not on the gear. I've said it before lance would still be walking around a 7 time winner if he wasn't a massive bellend why do you think big mig has got away with it
This old theory has been proved to be false and there is not a shred of evidence to prove otherwise and I still await some bright spark to produce something. ?
He probably took less drugs than Greg Lemond.
While I can see that there may not be conclusive evidence, and you are of course free to choose to believe he was clean, I don't see how you can possibly say he was clean "without any doubt".
I mean, I think Froome's clean, but I'd never go so far as to make an absolute statement like that. I don't think I'd do that for any pro rider for that matter, and especially not someone who was dominant at a time widely regarded to be the start of cycling's dirtiest era.0 -
By George, I think he's got it. That's why Indurain Retired and took No part, as I say without much fear of contradiction.While I can see that there may not be conclusive evidence, and you are of course free to choose to believe he was clean, I don't see how you can possibly say he was clean "without any doubt".
and especially not someone who was dominant at a time widely regarded to be the start of cycling's dirtiest era.
Maybe I spent too much time, 25 years ago spectating and standing around the start/finish areas (because security was not as tight as these days) and seeing riders up close who suddenly became Supermen.
Indurain was not an overnight Superman as he first came properly on my radar as a potential Top Class stage race rider by winning Paris–Nice and with his domestic work also.
I don't say he was clean but I do maintain he wasn't on EPO as I've never seen anything to alter my opinion.
Just to help to clear some hype away.
He was using a nasal inhaler at the 1984 Olympics and cleared at those Olympics.
That Francesco Conconi advised him to lose 10 Kg as a result of his tests in Italy, which made his power more effective.Organiser, National Championship 50 mile Time Trial 19720 -
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So that's where you get your Fairy Stories and next wild thing you will tell me is Father Christmas gives you presents in December that you also, can believe "Make Believe"Say hi to the fairies and the green goblins for me.
Those Fairies, Goblins and Father Christmas of yours all believe Armstrong was the best French Tour winner with a best place finish of 36th, (even Chris Boardman could finish 39th)
Most normal people know he could only win "One Day Races" and collect the tickets with the GT groupetto back markers as Bjarne Riis and his team of Amatuers did previously.
Didn't the Fairies tell you that in the 1995 TDF, Deutsche Telekom had to share a Team place in order to ride.
Remember, I was there while you played with your Fairies etc.Shortly before the start, Le Groupement folded because of financial problems. Their spot went to Aki-Gipiemme, the first team in the reserve list. Additionally, the organisation decided to invite one extra team: a combined team of Team Telekom and ZG Mobili,Organiser, National Championship 50 mile Time Trial 19720 -
standing by the side of the road gives you no more insight into whether a person took drugs or not.
Not sure if it was a cover up but I read Tour De Force by Dan Coyle who was entrenched in the LA camp and that still puts it all down to training and hard work and makes no mention of drugs.
Unless you lived with Big Mig 24/7 you have no more insight into whether he was clean or not, just an opinion.
yes you can state facts to back that up like wins in L'Avenir and Paris-Nice but that just help form opinions not hard facts0 -
Are you seriously asking serial cheats to own up to foul play when they're basking in glory and making millions?
Rick: I'll raise you to little green men, fairies and goblins.'Performance analysis and Froome not being clean was a media driven story. I haven’t heard one guy in the peloton say a negative thing about Froome, and I haven’t heard a single person in the peloton suggest Froome isn’t clean.' TSP0 -
Why are people so obsessed with the doping. No amount of drugs can give you that kind of mental determination and skills to win TdF seven times in a row - arguably the hardest sport there is. Especially so soon after recovering from cancer. I cant think of any other athlete who would even come close.0
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How about the naturally gifted cyclists that didn't use EPO or HGH to transform their bodies into doing something it wasn't naturally gifted to doWhy are people so obsessed with the doping. No amount of drugs can give you that kind of mental determination and skills to win TdF seven times in a row - arguably the hardest sport there is. Especially so soon after recovering from cancer. I cant think of any other athlete who would even come close.0 -
Ex roadman @ExRoadman1 · Sep 20
@lancearmstrong did some bad things but doping is not one of them
Thought this was an interesting perspective“New York has the haircuts, London has the trousers, but Belfast has the reason!0 -
Remember, I was there while you played with your Fairies etc.
What does that mean?
You were in the room with Indurain when he *wasn't* injecting drugs??0 -
We have now officially entered the end of season twilight zone.'Performance analysis and Froome not being clean was a media driven story. I haven’t heard one guy in the peloton say a negative thing about Froome, and I haven’t heard a single person in the peloton suggest Froome isn’t clean.' TSP0
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Ex roadman @ExRoadman1 · Sep 20
@lancearmstrong did some bad things but doping is not one of them
Thought this was an interesting perspective
Its the wrong perspective. As a professional athlete he should only be judged by his athletic performance. Never heard a single criticism of his cycling and racing ability, performance or sportsmanship. Just the non stop drivel of how he mistreated the holier-than-thou and self righteous truth tellers with nothing to gain.0 -
Ex roadman @ExRoadman1 · Sep 20
@lancearmstrong did some bad things but doping is not one of them
Thought this was an interesting perspective
Its the wrong perspective. As a professional athlete he should only be judged by his athletic performance. Never heard a single criticism of his cycling and racing ability, performance or sportsmanship. Just the non stop drivel of how he mistreated the holier-than-thou and self righteous truth tellers with nothing to gain.
I think chasing down Simeoni and forcing Bassons out of the sport for speaking up about the cheating could be considered unsporting0 -
He didn't force Bassons out of the sport.I think chasing down Simeoni and forcing Bassons out of the sport for speaking up about the cheating could be considered unsportingTwitter: @RichN950 -
possibly not but his enforcement of Omerta didn't make it easy for those that didn't cheat or toe the line.
He didn't force Bassons out of the sport.I think chasing down Simeoni and forcing Bassons out of the sport for speaking up about the cheating could be considered unsporting0 -
I'm no Lance apologist but omerta was flourishing in cycling long before he came along. If it hadnt been Lance who assumed the role of patron, it would have been someone else through those years. He followed a 'fine' tradition.
Yes, he behaved appallingly to Bassons, but the likes of the Badger wasn't averse to chasing down riders who wouldnt toe his line.
Bassons' erstwhile team mates who refused to talk to him, and even joined in with other teams' riders in giving him hell in races the following season, or just refusing to race in the same line-up, have equal culpability IMO.0
