How do I get faster ??
Comments
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I know my system is working. I do use a coach but I do also adapt his suggestions to fit what to what I actually want to do. I have gone from being able to average 228w for an hour back in February before tailing off to 237w average for 3 hrs with the 2nd hour at 248w last sunday. There was one ride in July where I managed 300w for an hour but that did not happen again as fell ill for a week tried riding through it and the aftermath and have only just recovered from the damage I did to myself. That to me means base miles (with low candace strength work) with a couple of rides a week focused on intervals, some short and other extended. Tomorrow ride will be extended intervals 5 mins and the like targeting 250w average over 2hrs.
Base base base. I do not however use ftp as guide for fitness never had it measured but my 3hrs power must give an indication. Once you have the base miles in your legs your interval training will be more effective.
I tend not to base my thoughts on a ride on how fast it was. Speed varies based on so many things. The power out put you manage is a better guide and your heart rate is good enough guide in reality. I tend to use power now only and mostly ignore heart rate. I use heart rate to see if my heart rate is too high for a given output if it is I know to back the intensity of as I need rest. You can do that of feel though some very good riders train of feel alone, I know one that does not even use a heart rate monitor a computer or anything. He a cat 2 racer and rides the legs of almost everyone.
Napoleond your TT time are very good keep up the good work it obviously working.
Would not a better metric be NP rather than Ave power?
http://home.trainingpeaks.com/blog/article/what-is-normalized-power0 -
I find my np numbers not to dissimilar to my average power outputs if I am being consistent. They are a bit higher but what np does is tell you something about the intensity of the ride useful for rides with lots of sprints then freewheeling or low power in between segments. It is metric designed to help prevent overtraining. I can sort of feel how intense a ride is. I rarely ride like that so np is less useful. The coach I use does not like the metric either.http://www.thecycleclinic.co.uk -wheel building and other stuff.0
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I don't mean to be excessively cynical...
However, When I hear about these tests where the trainer says your Z2 is say 140 when you start and you go at that speed. Then say after 2months they then say oh your Z2 is now 150 and you can go much faster at Z2.
I wonder the improvement is real or not,or have they deliberately set a low Z2 HR at the start and at the end your allowed to 'try harder' in Z2 and then think you are much faster, with bigger gains?
It makes sense if they are testing you blood or glycogen usage (or something else physical) each time to determine these parameters, but if not then I'm a bit skeptical?
I want to believe!0 -
I believe the coach that napd is using do Carry out testing with blood.0
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I don't mean to be excessively cynical...
However, When I hear about these tests where the trainer says your Z2 is say 140 when you start and you go at that speed. Then say after 2months they then say oh your Z2 is now 150 and you can go much faster at Z2.
I wonder the improvement is real or not,or have they deliberately set a low Z2 HR at the start and at the end your allowed to 'try harder' in Z2 and then think you are much faster, with bigger gains?
It makes sense if they are testing you blood or glycogen usage (or something else physical) each time to determine these parameters, but if not then I'm a bit skeptical?
I want to believe!
It's measured using gas analysis/HR. The increase in Aerobic capacity is very clearly demonstrated. The top of my Z2 is determined by the HR at the point at which my CO2 out is greater than O2 in.
First up- this was from Feb 14 when I first went to see him, where the red line (CO2) is level/above the blue line (O2) I am at/above my aerobic capacity. There are two sections to this bit, 5 mins at 165w and 5 mins at 220w (the end of each 5 min is marked in pencil). You can see that I'm borderline at 165w then anaerobic at 220w. The red line is way above the blue. I was really struggling.
This is from April 15. The difference is pretty clear! Fully, easily aerobic even at 220w, the blue oxygen line is MUCH higher than the red CO2 line throughout. felt like a steady bimble. My ramp test on the right was also markedly improved, hitting aerobic threshold 4 minutes later (equating to 80w higher)
Hope this helps with your cynicism.Insta: ATEnduranceCoaching
ABCC Cycling Coach0 -
I'll back NapD up, not that he needs it with such a comprehensive reply/evidence. Same coach, same tests, after a winter of base (L2) rides, my power was up 65-70w for same HR. Retested 9 months later and my L2 zone had actually DROPPED by 5bpm and my MAP was over 20% higher, with me losing 4kg's. It's really interesting to see the O2 and co2 plots 9 months apart. And very important as zones do shift.
And it's not all about power numbers either. My recovery times have dropped significantly, and efficiency greatly improved.
HTH.0 -
So in terms of FTP is zone 2 around 60-75% of FTP approx? I used the time crunched cycling program a few seasons ago and got FTP up around 250-260, had a dreadful season this year due to other distractions with work and family but I'm now looking to refocus for next year.
It sounds like you are riding 6 days per week typically NapD, 2 x zone 2 sessions of 1-3hrs and another 2 more intense sessions with threshold intervals? This sounds more doable psychologically than the time crunched program which has a lot of really hard vo2 max intervals that are draining physically and mentally to keep doing.
I reckon I can probably only manage a max 4 sessions per week. The gains you have documented are phenomenal and pretty much what I would love to achieve (from 230w to about 280w). At the moment I'm probably only managing around 4hrs per week and these sort of gains don't seem realistic to me.
I know a 1st cat rider who uses lactate testing a few times per year and tells me his coach has him training at just 2 intensities either 210w or 290w, this sounds similar to your program in that sense. Seems to work for him to. If anything it just sounds too easy!0 -
My zone 2 at the moment is working out at about about 210
-230w. I don't test my FTP, I just get my FTP on the TT bike (only about 270 w ) from 25m TTs . If I sit up or am on the road bike it's a lot more. E.g. In a 2hr race on the road bike the peak 20min watts was 320!
I'll be adjusting my position soon as I'm paying a visit to aerocoach, I'll be a lot more aero but I'm sure the power will drop a little. I'll train in the new position over winter. Aim to get under 20 mins for a 10 and 53 for a 25.Insta: ATEnduranceCoaching
ABCC Cycling Coach0 -
These L2 zones aren't the same as Coggan/Friels Zones. They are set by testing and my L2 zone at the moment is approx 85% of FTP. The power I can output in this zone is a lot higher now, and although my FTP has gone up a lot too, it's not gone up by the same proportion.
A 1.5 hr (constant power) ride at this intensity isnt easy, a 3hr session brings me to my knees. The intensity is such that it's repeatable daily (perhaps not 3hrs daily, but 1.5hrs daily should be)
Rrcommend speaking to Sportstest - a much better investment that a new pair of wheels or shiny bit of kit.0 -
Yep. My Z2 is not easy! As above, my Z2 is now closer to FTP. I can still do them on empty though as by definition it's not glycogen burning. But I can feel it in my legs.Insta: ATEnduranceCoaching
ABCC Cycling Coach0 -
So your z2 might equate more to a "sweet spot" level, ie tempo effort at sub threshold, maybe 80-95% of FTP intensity?0
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the lower end of Zone 2 is also called pressing on pace ~75% to 80% of FTP. It is that power output you can sustain for 1 to 3hrs or so. for me that is ~ 230W. The mid to upper end of zone 2 is where you do under over training. this is alot harder. Apparently training in this zone for extended periods does not lead to much improvement to you fitness but alot of training stress and you are pushing up to nearly 90% of your FTP. This is my understanding at least. Hence I don't do under over's much and leave that sort of effort for a race/getting dropped which explains why recovering from a race can take a while.
So GGbike yes Z2 is sweat pot level edit but this can be too high for meaningful benefit.
I know NapD's training works although he takes the testing far more seriously than I do. You dont have to training all the time "on" to get benefit. I like the fact that NapD does not bother with FTP tests I am not sure what you do with it.http://www.thecycleclinic.co.uk -wheel building and other stuff.0 -
So your z2 might equate more to a "sweet spot" level, ie tempo effort at sub threshold, maybe 80-95% of FTP intensity?
No, that's too high. It's difficult to relate it to FTP, it's not a metric Garry uses. I just use it to monitor training stress. Mine is more like 'tempo' or what some coaches call "no man's land' or even "junk miles"!
My threshold building intervals are done at what most people call sweet spot.
The problem is, everyone is different. Very different. When I set my zones off FTP using the Coggan, Carmichael or Friel methods before seeing Garry they were wrong, for me.
I now use HR for z2 rides and a mixture of power and hr for the harder intervals (I set off at my target power then use HR once it's raised to make sure I'm not going too hard/easy).
Some of the most important rides though are, rather than a threshold session, I just go out and ride my bike on feel. Be that a hilly ride, chaingang, long steady bimble. These are important mentally. They remind you of why you like riding your bike.Insta: ATEnduranceCoaching
ABCC Cycling Coach0 -
Cool guys,
Thanks for laying your data out there NapD, I appreciate the effort there
Just to check. These gains are in just two months? Or two months and year? ta.
The change in body composition thing that must of been over a longer period.
I'm just wondering if such a jump (in performance) was also at least partly due to a chance in training volume/diet etc.
Otherwise quite impressed.0 -
Cool guys,
Thanks for laying your data out there NapD, I appreciate the effort there
Just to check. These gains are in just two months? Or two months and year? ta.
The change in body composition thing that must have been over a longer period.
I'm just wondering if such a jump (in performance) was also at least partly due to a chance in training volume/diet etc.
Otherwise quite impressed.
No way! That's impossible!
Feb 14 to Apr 15. I'd show you the two interim ones but Cba
No change in training volume.
Small changes to diet. Not much at all really.Insta: ATEnduranceCoaching
ABCC Cycling Coach0 -
Another problem with this is terrain, it's rolling hills everywhere here so it's impossible to hold any constant power for more than a few minutes, to get a NP at target I need to go harder on hills as it's difficult to maintain power while Gravity is accelerating you down the other side0
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Another problem with this is terrain, it's rolling hills everywhere here so it's impossible to hold any constant power for more than a few minutes, to get a NP at target I need to go harder on hills as it's difficult to maintain power while Gravity is accelerating you down the other side
That's why I ride to a HR zone outdoors. If it means going slowly uphill then dropping below the zone on a fast descent so be it.Insta: ATEnduranceCoaching
ABCC Cycling Coach0 -
GGBiker, if you want to do constant power rides (for me they were essential to mimic the really long alpine climbs) then I'd be wary of targetting NP and making up for it on the hills. I'd work to try and get NP as close to AP as possible.
Is there anywhere that you could drive to, even if only to find a 20min flat section? Or jump onto the turbo?
My local terrain is generally up and down too, but I found a one hour flattish loop I could do from my house, and had a second 20min flattish loop, a short 20min drive away. Going around that loop for 3 hours, or repeating the same route day in day out is pretty boring but ended up being perfect and did the job.
Also as I got more practise, I found I could cope putting constant power down on descents if they didn't get too twisty or steep. With good use of your brakes (sometimes they would be close to full on, and I'd be pedalling against them) you could control alot of terrain.0 -
As weve got a good topic going what do I need to work on for road races? Took a last minute decision to race at cutmill today. Always knew it would be tough for me to finish with the punchy climbs but I got dropped on a 4 minute climb after a few laps. 70kg and FTP is only 260 at the moment.0
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As weve got a good topic going what do I need to work on for road races? Took a last minute decision to race at cutmill today. Always knew it would be tough for me to finish with the punchy climbs but I got dropped on a 4 minute climb after a few laps. 70kg and FTP is only 260 at the moment.
Fast chain gangs are great for this but if you are stuck, try doing a VO2 max session once a week, loads of info on the web. I have certain things I do that work for me, not going to post them here as they are specific to me and YMMV. But a good base will always mean you recover better after any efforts.Insta: ATEnduranceCoaching
ABCC Cycling Coach0 -
Tried this without power today as you suggested NapD, aimed to keep HR below 160, put in 2.5hrs and felt pretty tired by the end, surprisingly more tired than I usually would on a run of this duration where I might go harder on hills (to a FTP or vo2 max intensity and then back off and recover on the hills). Tried to the keep the legs turning at all times to keep HR in the zone, certainly builds a cumulative fatigue after a couple of hours. Hopefully running aerobic for vast majority of all this but I felt my glycogen tanks were nearing empty and definitely needed to eat afterwards. It was actually very pleasant to be riding the bike without panting like a dog hammering it up the hills as usual. I'm remembering now I did this sort of training a couple of seasons ago for a few months in the winter and it seemed to help then although I think I was worried at the time that I wasn't working hard enough. Might try this for next few months with the odd cx race for FTP/vo2 max interval simulation.0
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Nap, now I'm confused again!.
Are you saying the lower intensity Z2 level (initially in your case 140bpm/165W) work is below where start to burn glycogen.
Or below where you start to be anaerobic?
Surely it's not the same...0 -
As weve got a good topic going what do I need to work on for road races? Took a last minute decision to race at cutmill today. Always knew it would be tough for me to finish with the punchy climbs but I got dropped on a 4 minute climb after a few laps. 70kg and FTP is only 260 at the moment.
This is one good example where the FTP number is something to take a hold of.
I would suspect that many of your fellow competitors have number in excess of 300 and more to explain you being not able to hold on where road races really expose rider weaknesses.
I also suspect you have age on your side to do something about it over winter.0 -
Even at Cat 3 level it amazes me how much these guys ride a week. Guess ive got even more work to do. Got a power meter a few weeks ago so should be a good winter.0
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Nap, now I'm confused again!.
Are you saying the lower intensity Z2 level (initially in your case 140bpm/165W) work is below where start to burn glycogen.
Or below where you start to be anaerobic?
Surely it's not the same...
It's supposed to be where you are pretty much just burning fat, you are FULLY aerobic, before you are burning glycogen. It takes a while for your body to adapt to that. It feels easy for the first hour but gets progressively harder. At the end of the ride you are desperate for food! Much more so than after an interval session in my case. You know it's time for a retest when you can do 4 hrs on just water!Insta: ATEnduranceCoaching
ABCC Cycling Coach0 -
Speed is dependent mostly of aerobic capacity. If we are talking about adults (amateurs) we have to understand, that our improvement possibility is extremely limited. For development of aerobic ability, adolescence is the best period.
What can adults do, who were never athletes in their life?
The most they can do is to improve efficiency, so they can get more power with the same energy input. Efficiency can be improved by: Increasing endurance strength, using an appropriate cadence and especially with a smart periodization.
Highly intensive trainings are extremely usefull, but only if we train them at an appropriate time. Premature high intensity training lead to vicious cycle of exhaustion, strength reduction and lower training efficiency. First signs that we are on the right path are: increased speed on flat terrain and feeling that we can easy ride with a high cadence.0 -
Many congrats NapD on your greatly improved TT times and weight loss. Those are both real achievements. I appreciate what you are saying that zone 2 isn't simply a set % of FTP or max heart rate as we are all different and the point at which the our bodies reach the first lactate threshold is different. One thing that strikes me is that you're training 6 days a week which is a fair amount albeit it seems to be about 10-12 hrs just spread out over 6 days. How do you manage that? What happens when it rains - do you go out on the road or sit on the turbo?
Last year I got some good improvements by upping my riding days per week from 4 to 5 and riding below HR zone 2, say 12-15 hrs per week. I'm not sure whether this was due to the lower intensity (it was pretty slow to start with) or the fact that i had simply increased my riding - a bit of both probably. One thing that I did find was that the quality of my pedalling felt different, smoother and more powerful.0 -
Many congrats NapD on your greatly improved TT times and weight loss. Those are both real achievements. I appreciate what you are saying that zone 2 isn't simply a set % of FTP or max heart rate as we are all different and the point at which the our bodies reach the first lactate threshold is different. One thing that strikes me is that you're training 6 days a week which is a fair amount albeit it seems to be about 10-12 hrs just spread out over 6 days. How do you manage that? What happens when it rains - do you go out on the road or sit on the turbo?
Last year I got some good improvements by upping my riding days per week from 4 to 5 and riding below HR zone 2, say 12-15 hrs per week. I'm not sure whether this was due to the lower intensity (it was pretty slow to start with) or the fact that i had simply increased my riding - a bit of both probably. One thing that I did find was that the quality of my pedalling felt different, smoother and more powerful.
Cheers.
Due to more racing this summer things have been all over the shop.
Up until the first races, if I did every workout it meant I was doing 4-5hrs in each 3 day block, but life often got in the way so I'd say it was more like 3-4hrs. With the racing over the spring/summer I've only been doing 4hrs training a week tops.
When I was on shifts I was able to have some good long rides out too but due to work commitments of the wife and I I'm going to be pretty much tied to the turbo over winter. Now the season is finished I'm going to move back to a 3 day block like last year. Although I'm seeing Garry at Sportstest again next month, I'll just do what he tells me!Insta: ATEnduranceCoaching
ABCC Cycling Coach0 -
That's interesting. If I understand correctly, the training that you have been doing seems to fit the 80/20 pattern (80% just below the first lactate threshold and 20% over the second). Some of the literature that I've seen indicates that this is an approach taken by elite sportsmen and only really suggests its effect for us mortals with 10 hours or so a week to spare. Obvs in your particular case it seems to work rather well.0
