How do I get faster ??
Comments
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Our club chaingang averages about 25mph but is made up of a mix of racing abilities.
What I'd suggest to the OP is to really work on your base. 3 day blocks. 2 days of riding what most would refer to as 'tempo' or 'no mans land' and one interval session.
After always thinking intervals are the be all and end all but struggling I went to Sportstest. He (Garry Palmer) found I had no base fitness, it was all top end from track work and intervals. I'd go anaerobic straight away and not recover quick enough.
So January 2014 I started improving my base fitness. It took a few months but my speed 'in the zone' has now gone from 14-15mph to now 19-20. I go for a test every 3-5 months. It has transformed me. I'm now building for next season but following this path enabled me to get down from well over an hour to 55.42 for a 25 mile TT last month. It also changed the way my body used energy and I lost 10kg fat and gained 5kg lean muscle.Insta: ATEnduranceCoaching
ABCC Cycling Coach0 -
Wow, thats amazing. Particularly the fat loss and muscle gains over the period. That must have been very hard work.0
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Impressive results indeed !0
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Wow, thats amazing. Particularly the fat loss and muscle gains over the period. That must have been very hard work.
Cheers.
It was hard work but tbh no harder than what I was doing, I was training hard but I was doing the wrong things!Insta: ATEnduranceCoaching
ABCC Cycling Coach0 -
Our club chaingang averages about 25mph but is made up of a mix of racing abilities.
What I'd suggest to the OP is to really work on your base. 3 day blocks. 2 days of riding what most would refer to as 'tempo' or 'no mans land' and one interval session.
After always thinking intervals are the be all and end all but struggling I went to Sportstest. He (Garry Palmer) found I had no base fitness, it was all top end from track work and intervals. I'd go anaerobic straight away and not recover quick enough.
So January 2014 I started improving my base fitness. It took a few months but my speed 'in the zone' has now gone from 14-15mph to now 19-20. I go for a test every 3-5 months. It has transformed me. I'm now building for next season but following this path enabled me to get down from well over an hour to 55.42 for a 25 mile TT last month. It also changed the way my body used energy and I lost 10kg fat and gained 5kg lean muscle.
Sounds like good improvements - well done. With reference to the base stuff - can I just ask what the thinking behind doing it in 3-day blocks is? I've had a bit of a 'eureka' moment while reading this and so just wondering if there is some particular benefit in doing the work on consecutive days..0 -
Our club chaingang averages about 25mph but is made up of a mix of racing abilities.
What I'd suggest to the OP is to really work on your base. 3 day blocks. 2 days of riding what most would refer to as 'tempo' or 'no mans land' and one interval session.
After always thinking intervals are the be all and end all but struggling I went to Sportstest. He (Garry Palmer) found I had no base fitness, it was all top end from track work and intervals. I'd go anaerobic straight away and not recover quick enough.
So January 2014 I started improving my base fitness. It took a few months but my speed 'in the zone' has now gone from 14-15mph to now 19-20. I go for a test every 3-5 months. It has transformed me. I'm now building for next season but following this path enabled me to get down from well over an hour to 55.42 for a 25 mile TT last month. It also changed the way my body used energy and I lost 10kg fat and gained 5kg lean muscle.
Sounds like good improvements - well done. With reference to the base stuff - can I just ask what the thinking behind doing it in 3-day blocks is? I've had a bit of a 'eureka' moment while reading this and so just wondering if there is some particular benefit in doing the work on consecutive days..
This is VERY individual but FWIW The testing found the HR at which I started to become more anaerobic so the 'zone 2' was set around that, for me I was starting to burn the glycogen at 140bpm so my Z2 work was initially done at 130-140 (it's now 144-154 btw) I was crawling along but made sure I followed the plan. I tried to do as many of these Z2 sessions in the morning on empty (easy with shift work). Then the intervals were set at around the tested threshold HR/Power - for me it was 157-167bpm at 220w (now 164 to 174 at 275w +/- a bit) I started just doing 5 min intervals but week on week built them up to 20 mins on 10 min recovery.
It started out as the 3 day blocks mainly due to my shift pattern but that's what Garry at Sportstest advocated anyway - it turns out that it really seemed to work. I'd generally do the interval session (sweet spot) on the second day but it didn't really matter.
I suppose you get tired by the end of the third day and the rest day is where your body builds back up. Because you aren't REALLY hammering the body you don't get to the point where you are too knackered.
Once the base had been built I was doing one more interval session a week over winter, then earlier this year started introducing top end once a week unless I was racing twice.
Sorry for rambling but it really has changed me!
YMMVInsta: ATEnduranceCoaching
ABCC Cycling Coach0 -
Wow, that would be totally unintuitive. Must have been very hard to keep the faith.0
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Wow, that would be totally unintuitive. Must have been very hard to keep the faith.
It was certainly a matter of trust at first, I thought I couldn't get any worse and it was all explained (and backed up) so well. I trust him implicitly now that's for sure. After just 3-4 weeks I started seeing improvements in the speed I was maintaining at the 'zone 2' and power output was increasing in the interval sessions.
It's the old adage/cliche of building foundations before the house. I really had to go back to basics.
Edit: as if by magic I just happened upon this article in my Twitter feed..
http://runninginsystems.com/2015/08/11/high-intensity-fitness-culture-explained-in-systems-physiology-evolution-overtraining-in-ultrarunners-and-what-it-means-for-the-rest-of-us/Insta: ATEnduranceCoaching
ABCC Cycling Coach0 -
Wow, that would be totally unintuitive. Must have been very hard to keep the faith.
It's the old adage/cliche of building foundations before the house. I really had to go back to basics.
When I raced I trained with quite a few people and the hardest thing was trying to persuade them to do was slow down. There is the misconception that if you get back from a ride totally knackered it must be 'good' training and riding up every hill as if it's got a prime on it is 'good' training. A lot of riders spend a great deal of time riding too fast and the rest of the time not riding fast enough.0 -
Our club chaingang averages about 25mph but is made up of a mix of racing abilities.
What I'd suggest to the OP is to really work on your base. 3 day blocks. 2 days of riding what most would refer to as 'tempo' or 'no mans land' and one interval session.
After always thinking intervals are the be all and end all but struggling I went to Sportstest. He (Garry Palmer) found I had no base fitness, it was all top end from track work and intervals. I'd go anaerobic straight away and not recover quick enough.
So January 2014 I started improving my base fitness. It took a few months but my speed 'in the zone' has now gone from 14-15mph to now 19-20. I go for a test every 3-5 months. It has transformed me. I'm now building for next season but following this path enabled me to get down from well over an hour to 55.42 for a 25 mile TT last month. It also changed the way my body used energy and I lost 10kg fat and gained 5kg lean muscle.
Sounds like good improvements - well done. With reference to the base stuff - can I just ask what the thinking behind doing it in 3-day blocks is? I've had a bit of a 'eureka' moment while reading this and so just wondering if there is some particular benefit in doing the work on consecutive days..
This is VERY individual but FWIW The testing found the HR at which I started to become more anaerobic so the 'zone 2' was set around that, for me I was starting to burn the glycogen at 140bpm so my Z2 work was initially done at 130-140 (it's now 144-154 btw) I was crawling along but made sure I followed the plan. I tried to do as many of these Z2 sessions in the morning on empty (easy with shift work). Then the intervals were set at around the tested threshold HR/Power - for me it was 157-167bpm at 220w (now 164 to 174 at 275w +/- a bit) I started just doing 5 min intervals but week on week built them up to 20 mins on 10 min recovery.
It started out as the 3 day blocks mainly due to my shift pattern but that's what Garry at Sportstest advocated anyway - it turns out that it really seemed to work. I'd generally do the interval session (sweet spot) on the second day but it didn't really matter.
I suppose you get tired by the end of the third day and the rest day is where your body builds back up. Because you aren't REALLY hammering the body you don't get to the point where you are too knackered.
Once the base had been built I was doing one more interval session a week over winter, then earlier this year started introducing top end once a week unless I was racing twice.
Sorry for rambling but it really has changed me!
YMMV
Not rambling at all(!) - that's very useful, thanks..
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More evidence that this approach works for me, just done a BIG 10 mile TT PB, 20.58. A power PB too. I came 11th/120.
If you'd told me 18 months ago I'd have got the results I've had this year I'd've laughed.Insta: ATEnduranceCoaching
ABCC Cycling Coach0 -
Base miles are the key as napoleon has said. Last year I was getting dropped all the time in road race and very quickly. So in September I started do longer base mile rides solo on Sundays and some mid week sessions. As winter progressed I slowly up the mileage. Now in road races I hang on for a lot longer before I do something silly that gets me dropped (last week it was deliberately sliding to back to sit up and have a gel on a narrow bit of road and then the pack stepped on it and I went oh dear.....The week before was even more foolish) or I finish in a half reasonable position. I will do more base training over winter and hopefully next year i will improve again but I will have to learn basic race tactics first.
I am now at the point where I can race or have do a long fast ride or club chain gang Sunday rest Monday ride Tuesday morning spinning mostly for an hour and Tuesday evening do spinny intervals, Wednesday evening 2 hours on the mtb fairly intense but social, Thursday morning recovery or rest, fast 2 hour tempo on Friday, 2hrs on the mtb sat for a quickish ride and then back to Sundays again. So that 2 days then recovery or rest, 3 days then rest and repeat. However if I had tried that last year it would have killed me. It has taken nearly a year of base to get to this point. Soon however I will be commuting on the bike 6 days a week so I will have mix all that into the commute. Over winter I will slow the rides down a bit and build leg strength mostly and endurance.
So in short ride more but make each session different I think that might be the key.
One thing I have noticed I now go out with far less food and none at all for a ride 2hrs or under. I did not try to train this it just happened by itself. It has helped a lot on longer rides like Dunwich dynamo where I did not have to stop and ate some flapjack in the 6 hrs I rode ( I did 220 miles that day with a big burger in London before it started and breakfast at Dunwich before the ride home). Last year I used to eat every half hour on a ride or I would bonk. Riding is a lot cheaper now.
I will add no matter how fast you get there is always someone quicker I find that on a weekly basis.http://www.thecycleclinic.co.uk -wheel building and other stuff.0 -
NapoleonD can you give more Information on how the training works. I had looked at a similar type of training for my base this autumn/winter. I was looking at 4 easy 2-3 hour rides and 2 hard but short interval sessions per week. This would be interval Tuesday, easy Wednesday, Thursday, interval Friday, easy Saturday, Sunday and rest on Monday.
Is your 3 day training cycle followed by a rest day; and if so would I assume that the harder interval session is done first? Also how long are the tempo rides and is the zone for these upper zone 2 lower zone 3?0 -
To the OP, what about getting a season's racing in?
dependent on staying on 2 wheels, able to afford the money and time, you will be quicker in September than you were in March... even if you remain bunch fodder.0 -
The OP says the average whole ride speed is more like 21mph. But that requires long periods at 23/24. And they're only doing an hour.An average ride pace of 23/24 mph is rediculous, I have guys on strava that ride a lot and they don't hit that level, 27/28 is just silly.
It's either that or I'm just slow and shoot.
This isn't at all unreasonable for a small group on a flattish route. I can show you examples if you want.
Paul0 -
NapoleonD can you give more Information on how the training works. I had looked at a similar type of training for my base this autumn/winter. I was looking at 4 easy 2-3 hour rides and 2 hard but short interval sessions per week. This would be interval Tuesday, easy Wednesday, Thursday, interval Friday, easy Saturday, Sunday and rest on Monday.
Is your 3 day training cycle followed by a rest day; and if so would I assume that the harder interval session is done first? Also how long are the tempo rides and is the zone for these upper zone 2 lower zone 3?
The problem is knowing your 'Z2' , but you can do these, all in zone 2 for 1-3 hrs. Much longer and that's replacing a threshold session.
I started off doing Z2, threshold, z2, rest.
After a about 6-8 months that changed to Thr, z2, Thr, rest day (or a long ride in place of a threshold)
Now I do more of a mix of higher intensity stuff and racing.Insta: ATEnduranceCoaching
ABCC Cycling Coach0 -
What length were your base sessions, 1 to 3 hours?0
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What length were your base sessions, 1 to 3 hours?
However far I got in z2 in 1-3 hours!!Insta: ATEnduranceCoaching
ABCC Cycling Coach0 -
Yeah sorry for the obvious question but I just meant length in time. I wasnt sure if you were giving advice to do 1-3 hours or if you did that yourself.0
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Yeah sorry for the obvious question but I just meant length in time. I wasnt sure if you were giving advice to do 1-3 hours or if you did that yourself.
However much I had time for. It was usually around 2hrs, if I couldn't get out, an hour on the turbo.Insta: ATEnduranceCoaching
ABCC Cycling Coach0 -
For clarification, what do you define Z2 as?What length were your base sessions, 1 to 3 hours?
However far I got in z2 in 1-3 hours!!0 -
For clarification, what do you define Z2 as?What length were your base sessions, 1 to 3 hours?
However far I got in z2 in 1-3 hours!!
As per prev postInsta: ATEnduranceCoaching
ABCC Cycling Coach0 -
Our club chaingang averages about 25mph but is made up of a mix of racing abilities.
What I'd suggest to the OP is to really work on your base. 3 day blocks. 2 days of riding what most would refer to as 'tempo' or 'no mans land' and one interval session.
After always thinking intervals are the be all and end all but struggling I went to Sportstest. He (Garry Palmer) found I had no base fitness, it was all top end from track work and intervals. I'd go anaerobic straight away and not recover quick enough.
So January 2014 I started improving my base fitness. It took a few months but my speed 'in the zone' has now gone from 14-15mph to now 19-20. I go for a test every 3-5 months. It has transformed me. I'm now building for next season but following this path enabled me to get down from well over an hour to 55.42 for a 25 mile TT last month. It also changed the way my body used energy and I lost 10kg fat and gained 5kg lean muscle.
Sounds like good improvements - well done. With reference to the base stuff - can I just ask what the thinking behind doing it in 3-day blocks is? I've had a bit of a 'eureka' moment while reading this and so just wondering if there is some particular benefit in doing the work on consecutive days..
This is VERY individual but FWIW The testing found the HR at which I started to become more anaerobic so the 'zone 2' was set around that, for me I was starting to burn the glycogen at 140bpm so my Z2 work was initially done at 130-140 (it's now 144-154 btw) I was crawling along but made sure I followed the plan. I tried to do as many of these Z2 sessions in the morning on empty (easy with shift work). Then the intervals were set at around the tested threshold HR/Power - for me it was 157-167bpm at 220w (now 164 to 174 at 275w +/- a bit) I started just doing 5 min intervals but week on week built them up to 20 mins on 10 min recovery.
It started out as the 3 day blocks mainly due to my shift pattern but that's what Garry at Sportstest advocated anyway - it turns out that it really seemed to work. I'd generally do the interval session (sweet spot) on the second day but it didn't really matter.
I suppose you get tired by the end of the third day and the rest day is where your body builds back up. Because you aren't REALLY hammering the body you don't get to the point where you are too knackered.
Once the base had been built I was doing one more interval session a week over winter, then earlier this year started introducing top end once a week unless I was racing twice.
Sorry for rambling but it really has changed me!
YMMV
That's a very impressive endorsement of the training programme. Can I be nosy and ask what sort of money we are talking about for their services? The website doesn't say.0 -
175 for the testing, analysis, nutrition (macros) and general training plan. I see him every 4-6 months now.
Last years 10mile TT PB was 23.30, this year 20.58
Last year's 25m TT PB was 1:03:something, this year 55:42Insta: ATEnduranceCoaching
ABCC Cycling Coach0 -
An average ride pace of 23/24 mph is rediculous, I have guys on strava that ride a lot and they don't hit that level, 27/28 is just silly.
It's either that or I'm just slow and shoot.
Yea i would agree with you, We manage about 17-18 mph over a few hours on ours rides but we do have a few hills round here.
27/28 must be in a velodrome
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An average ride pace of 23/24 mph is rediculous, I have guys on strava that ride a lot and they don't hit that level, 27/28 is just silly.
It's either that or I'm just slow and shoot.
nope that's stupid fast for social riding, i'm in Wiltshire as well although i suspect a more hilly part than the OP, we ride an avg of 19-20 as a group for 2 ish hours and its flipping hard work, lots of hills and lots of balls out through and off sections. I couldnt imagine going 24-28 mph for that amount of time, climbing and distance.
My advice would be find a different group to ride with or suggest a few more easy social rides.Rule #5 // Harden The Feck Up.
Rule #9 // If you are out riding in bad weather, it means you are a badass. Period.
Rule #12 // The correct number of bikes to own is n+1.
Rule #42 // A bike race shall never be preceded with a swim and/or followed by a run.0 -
175 for the testing, analysis, nutrition (macros) and general training plan. I see him every 4-6 months now.
Last years 10mile TT PB was 23.30, this year 20.58
Last year's 25m TT PB was 1:03:something, this year 55:42
Thanks for that. For the cost of a bike fit, that's a pretty marked improvement. Will definitely consider getting in touch with them...0 -
175 for the testing, analysis, nutrition (macros) and general training plan. I see him every 4-6 months now.
Last years 10mile TT PB was 23.30, this year 20.58
Last year's 25m TT PB was 1:03:something, this year 55:42
My current PBs are similar to NapDs old ones - I would love to see an improvement like that 0 -
An average ride pace of 23/24 mph is rediculous, I have guys on strava that ride a lot and they don't hit that level, 27/28 is just silly.
It's either that or I'm just slow and shoot.
nope that's stupid fast for social riding, i'm in Wiltshire as well although i suspect a more hilly part than the OP, we ride an avg of 19-20 as a group for 2 ish hours and its flipping hard work, lots of hills and lots of balls out through and off sections. I couldnt imagine going 24-28 mph for that amount of time, climbing and distance.
My advice would be find a different group to ride with or suggest a few more easy social rides.
It's a flat 33 mile ride generally and the average over the last few weeks has been 21mph ( I haven't been though due to work commitments ) . Going over to the Cotswold water park from Swindon . Sections where the speed creeps up are flat and no more than half a mile before you hit a junction and it isn't at that pace all the way .
Thank you everyone for the advice and clearly I need to get my ass in gear then !
Racing - tempted and thinking about it and I'm sure it would help long run .I may be slow going up but i will pass you going down !0 -
I know my system is working. I do use a coach but I do also adapt his suggestions to fit what to what I actually want to do. I have gone from being able to average 228w for an hour back in February before tailing off to 237w average for 3 hrs with the 2nd hour at 248w last sunday. There was one ride in July where I managed 300w for an hour but that did not happen again as fell ill for a week tried riding through it and the aftermath and have only just recovered from the damage I did to myself. That to me means base miles (with low candace strength work) with a couple of rides a week focused on intervals, some short and other extended. Tomorrow ride will be extended intervals 5 mins and the like targeting 250w average over 2hrs.
Base base base. I do not however use ftp as guide for fitness never had it measured but my 3hrs power must give an indication. Once you have the base miles in your legs your interval training will be more effective.
I tend not to base my thoughts on a ride on how fast it was. Speed varies based on so many things. The power out put you manage is a better guide and your heart rate is good enough guide in reality. I tend to use power now only and mostly ignore heart rate. I use heart rate to see if my heart rate is too high for a given output if it is I know to back the intensity of as I need rest. You can do that of feel though some very good riders train of feel alone, I know one that does not even use a heart rate monitor a computer or anything. He a cat 2 racer and rides the legs of almost everyone.
Napoleond your TT time are very good keep up the good work it obviously working.http://www.thecycleclinic.co.uk -wheel building and other stuff.0
