Tour de France 2015: Stage 12 **Spoiler**
Comments
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That's just what the common perception of Froome is, it's not actually accurate. Would a polished grey PR man barge onto the Astana bus for a chat with Nibali about the bottle throwing incident, for example? Froome also doesn't have to be so outspoken about doping and what he's trying to do to prove he's clean, hardly dodging controversy there is he?[url=http://www.bikeradar.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=19654495#p19654495]The Loyal Lieutenant[/url] wrote:I like your passion FF, but I think you're wrong here - Froome is a very exciting rider, whether you're a fan or not. He is an out and out racer. Sure he's got a strong team who can close things down, but he will go toe to toe.
Your Contador fan-ness make you see his racing through a distorted lens. There is nothing wrong with that, we all do it. But Contador / Schleck wasn't that exciting. When I think about Contador and outstanding performance in the Tour the only thing that really springs to mind is Verbier. And that was so ET it was like something out of a sci fi film.
A lot of people here (me included) feel the same way when Valverde wins a race. But I'm sure we can say he's a classy bike rider and does ride in an exciting way. But it doesn't mean he's to everyones taste
I suspect it's Froome's personality, or rather lack there of, that prevents people warming to him. People want charismatic GC contendors, not PR polished grey men who are scared to take a stand or say anything controversial. No-one can deny his form this year; he's dominating the race. It's just a shame there isn't enough competition to prevent it from appearing a done deal.
I really don't know what people expect to get from star athletes - I don't think Contador or Nibali or Quintana are exactly larger than life characters either, are they??
That's my perception based on umpteen interviews over years of racing; that's the impression I've formed.
Chris hardly barged onto the bus; I saw the video. Why does controversy have to equal doping? He could talk about the performance of other riders or the tactics of other Teams. Watch a Tour interview with Wiggins and then one with Froome. Wiggins is hilarious, has charisma and character by the bucketload.
I am not denying Froome's performance and if that's enough to make you happy then good, but I want something a little more intangible. He's just too clinical and 'safe' for my liking. But I suppose if we were all the same life would be boring.0 -
Do riders pay any attention to zoomer talk of Froome's invincibility? While it's essential fuel for the doping narrative, does it also work to his advantage?
I think we saw today that Bertie and Nairo have decided in their heads that they can't beat Froome this year. I think Bertie decided it after Stage 10 (see tweets from Oleg, interview with M. Rodgers and berties demeanour since)! No whether or not that is purely psychological or that they know that they don't have it this year - for whatever reason - is perhaps still up for debate but today they rode like beaten men. Ironically the only one who seems to have a bit of lead in his pencil is Valverde...
When teams with the talent of Movistar and Tinkoff Saxo are happy to let Ian Stannard lead over two Cols (and to some extent let SvM into a breakway) and ride behind him with faces like thunder then you know something is up.
@Jane - good post. There are people on here who delight on finding the cloud in every silver lining. However i think part of the problem this year is that the media, the riders and ourselves have worked ourselves into a fever of excitement about the big 4 GC riders finally going toe to toe with each other every day for 3 weeks. There has been a lot of speculative talk about this being the best tour for years and, unfortunately, it hasnt really happened. The first week was great but in terms of the GC battle, Nibali has had a nightmare, Quintana is perhaps not fully ready for the expectation we put on him yet and Bertie is tired from a Giro. Froome however has arrived in tip top form and it is, so far, showing.This means that we havent quite got the extravaganza we had talked ourselves into believing was coming. it is made slightly worse by what I say above, which is that 2 of the big four appear to have thrown in the towel...We're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
- @ddraver0 -
[url=http://www.bikeradar.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=19654499#p19654499]The Loyal Lieutenant[/url] wrote:I dread to ask, but 'Drooler pool'?
The fanatics who don't care about their credibility. Sometimes known as zoomers. You get a lot of them in Scottish politics these days, and on doping forums. Guys like SkyLimit and Vayer. Currently foaming about G riding faster than Armstrong....a rare 100% loyal Pro Race poster. A poster boy for the community.0 -
Aah. Thanks Macaloon.0
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this should inspire you thenIs the longest running argument I've seen on the forum - longer than even doping: "cycling needs to be less boring"
Maybe it's not the sport for you?
I quite like the idea of rock climbing.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1zKuQttH1kE
Nice thanks, will make sure I watch it.
Going to start climbing in the arch soon as my sister is a big fan of the sport and has suggested I try it out. They called me the monkey when I was younger as was clambering over everything.
First video I saw that made me go wow was:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8e0yXMa708Y
(1.10 if nothing else)
(likely as you know; the guy died at 35)
This guy I find entertaining:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OndG4b5M-Q4
(see from .40 if nothing else)Contador is the Greatest0 -
But is he allowed to show his personality? He lives in a world were a shelf stacker at his team's warehouse having a short term contract for US Postal 16 years ago is a story.[url=http://www.bikeradar.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=19654495#p19654495]The Loyal Lieutenant[/url] wrote:I suspect it's Froome's personality, or rather lack there of, that prevents some people warming to him. People want charismatic GC contenders, not PR polished grey men who are scared to take a stand or say anything controversial.
How can you operate in that world and be a real person? You have to shut down and be as bland as possible.
Football experienced this first. Every slight misplaced utterance to a leading question became a back page story. Then people asked where the characters were.
It's easy to be a character if you are the likes of Adam Hansen and that's all people actually want to talk about. Once upon a time Chris Froome was a plucky young Kenyan kid with stories about misadventures in Africa being chased by hippos. Has he become more boring, or has he adapted to his environment?
(As an aside, I guessing you haven't read Froome's autobiography. Up to the 2011 Vuelta, it's really entertaining - as good a sporting auto as I've read. But then it becomes standard sports book fair)Twitter: @RichN950 -
I agree with Rich on Froome's character. When he first came to attention his interviews were unguarded and a breath of fresh air. Exactly what you'd expect from a guy prepared to take on Wiggins on his big day in fact. Post Wiggo-gate, the shutters came down. That BBC interview with the pair of them was inhumane. It's a pity....a rare 100% loyal Pro Race poster. A poster boy for the community.0
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This is the problem with the industry that specialist media has become... There's not enough news to fill it all so we're reduced to rubbish stirring for clicks"In many ways, my story was that of a raging, Christ-like figure who hauled himself off the cross, looked up at the Romans with blood in his eyes and said 'My turn, sock cookers'"
@gietvangent0 -
I agree with Rich on Froome's character. When he first came to attention his interviews were unguarded and a breath of fresh air. Exactly what you'd expect from a guy prepared to take on Wiggins on his big day in fact. Post Wiggo-gate, the shutters came down. That BBC interview with the pair of them was inhumane. It's a pity.
Making two shy, introverted weirdos pretend not to hate each other is never gonna be great telly, is it? Well, until it goes wrong"In many ways, my story was that of a raging, Christ-like figure who hauled himself off the cross, looked up at the Romans with blood in his eyes and said 'My turn, sock cookers'"
@gietvangent0 -
But is he allowed to show his personality? He lives in a world were a shelf stacker at his team's warehouse having a short term contract for US Postal 16 years ago is a story.[url=http://www.bikeradar.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=19654495#p19654495]The Loyal Lieutenant[/url] wrote:I suspect it's Froome's personality, or rather lack there of, that prevents some people warming to him. People want charismatic GC contenders, not PR polished grey men who are scared to take a stand or say anything controversial.
How can you operate in that world and be a real person? You have to shut down and be as bland as possible.
Football experienced this first. Every slight misplaced utterance to a leading question became a back page story. Then people asked where the characters were.
It's easy to be a character if you are the likes of Adam Hansen and that's all people actually want to talk about. Once upon a time Chris Froome was a plucky young Kenyan kid with stories about misadventures in Africa being chased by hippos. Has he become more boring, or has he adapted to his environment?
(As an aside, I guessing you haven't read Froome's autobiography. Up to the 2011 Vuelta, it's really entertaining - as good a sporting auto as I've read. But then it becomes standard sports book fair)
I actually have. Well, let me rephrase that, I bought it, started reading it and just couldn't get on with it. Put it down just after the African stuff (his time at Barloworld I think) and I've never picked it up again. I'm willing to give it another go though if you feel it's worthwhile.
The book I am really looking forward to is David Millar's new autobiography; his first was excellent.0 -
Agreed plus too many forums with arm chair experts who speak 'facts' to the great unwashed.[url=http://www.bikeradar.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=19654544#p19654544]disgruntledgoat[/url] wrote:This is the problem with the industry that specialist media has become... There's not enough news to fill it all so we're reduced to rubbish stirring for clicks'Performance analysis and Froome not being clean was a media driven story. I haven’t heard one guy in the peloton say a negative thing about Froome, and I haven’t heard a single person in the peloton suggest Froome isn’t clean.' TSP0 -
Because it’s anaerobic power.If Valverde has that power left why the hell wasn't he putting pressure on Froome and G lower down the hill?
So what - as a supporter of his team leader he should be willing to blow himself up a few k down the hill if it might allow NanoQ to gap Froome. Note how the tour winners "spend" their team-mates (horrible phrase) to put pressure on the other riders - whilst the strongest Movistar sidekick is really riding for himself rather than for team-leader then they will struggle and the only way they will win is pure solo brilliance by NanoQ. Frankly I don't think he has quite enough - but with Valverde actually working for him then it would be a closer race
Can't agree with that - what pressure is it putting on anyone for Valverde to sprint off for 100 metres and then go out the back ? He put in some attacks and they were clawed back - he put pressure on Sky and if his attack had stuck he would have been there for Quintana to bridge across to and work with - something he couldn't do if he'd blown up.
Froome was looking stretched (see two of the excellent head-on shots of a rider right on the rivet); Movistar need to take a few risks to try to upset the apple cart. Froome himself was chasing Valverde down and then G was catching up and re-establishing. One more blistering attack (and Valverde's attacks were all really punchy) and Froome might have tried to close and suddenly pushed a bit too hard (only a small chance perhaps)- then it is race on. If Froome had shown even a short loss of legs then it would have been a huge fillip to all the other contenders and gaps may have resulted with five vs two. Movistar will not win by allowing Sky to dictate tactics.0 -
I think those head-on shots were just after they pulled-back Quintana. Which is why even Q was showing the strain. It wasn't long after that the Froome attacked. Quite a strong move if you felt stretched....a rare 100% loyal Pro Race poster. A poster boy for the community.0
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Two fairly dull stages GC wise, an antidote to the first stage in the mountains and all the 'unbelievable' comments. When people ask why I think racing is much cleaner than it was 10 years ago it's this apparent inability of riders to really go for it on several stages in quick succession that does it. They seemed to want to try but just couldn't sustain the effort.0
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... and you don't think judging someone solely through interviews in which they know every word is likely to be pored over by the media and various internet idiots might result in a bit of a flawed perception of them coming through?! And when I mentioned doping I meant that he doesn't always try and duck the questions about it even though he must be sick of them by now, he's often willing to address them head on even if it results in yet more questions and yet more attention directed at him. Do you see the other big GC contenders talking about it so often, or are they happy to stay quiet as much as possible?The Loyal Lieutenant wrote:That's my perception based on umpteen interviews over years of racing; that's the impression I've formed.
Chris hardly barged onto the bus; I saw the video. Why does controversy have to equal doping? He could talk about the performance of other riders or the tactics of other Teams. Watch a Tour interview with Wiggins and then one with Froome. Wiggins is hilarious, has charisma and character by the bucketload.
I am not denying Froome's performance and if that's enough to make you happy then good, but I want something a little more intangible. He's just too clinical and 'safe' for my liking. But I suppose if we were all the same life would be boring.
People like Wiggins or Cav are the exception, not the rule - it's a bit silly to expect everyone to be a Wiggins, and if they were none of them would stand out! Again, I don't think Froome is any different from Quintana, Contador or Nibali yet he gets singled out as "boring" far more often. Probably just because he happens to be the English speaker.0 -
With reference to stuff upthread.
http://astanaproteam.kz/en/page/news/6769-official-statement-tour-de-france-2015/
I guess if you don't understand you can always make it up. :roll:0 -
It's each to their own. One man's rubbish is an other man's treasure.[url=http://www.bikeradar.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=19654551#p19654551]The Loyal Lieutenant[/url] wrote:I actually have. Well, let me rephrase that, I bought it, started reading it and just couldn't get on with it. Put it down just after the African stuff (his time at Barloworld I think) and I've never picked it up again. I'm willing to give it another go though if you feel it's worthwhile.
Foucault's Pendulum by Umberto Eco is supposedly a great of modern literature. But I got through it just like Michael Matthews and Adam Hansen are getting through this Tour - with no pleasure, but the satisfaction of finishing.Twitter: @RichN950 -
It's each to their own. One man's rubbish is an other man's treasure.[url=http://www.bikeradar.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=19654551#p19654551]The Loyal Lieutenant[/url] wrote:I actually have. Well, let me rephrase that, I bought it, started reading it and just couldn't get on with it. Put it down just after the African stuff (his time at Barloworld I think) and I've never picked it up again. I'm willing to give it another go though if you feel it's worthwhile.
Foucault's Pendulum by Umberto Eco is supposedly a great of modern literature. But I got through it just like Michael Matthews and Adam Hansen are getting through this Tour - with no pleasure, but the satisfaction of finishing.
I haven't jumped into the broom wagon so enthusiastically as when attempting that.Team My Man 2018: David gaudu, Pierre Latour, Romain Bardet, Thibaut pinot, Alexandre Geniez, Florian Senechal, Warren Barguil, Benoit Cosnefroy0 -
This!
Froome was the rival that Schleck never was.I just know that watching Contador and others when he was flying against Schleck and others in year's gone by got me into unbelievable levels of excitement, emotional overdrive, pure unadulterated joy. I haven't felt that for a very long time, just now and again when you see some heroics.
Contador has never raced anyone who looked like they could match him on the climbs and in the TT.
In 2009 I willed Frandy to bring it to Contador but in my heart of hearts I knew that Contador was the better all round GT rider. You can not say that against Froome. Both men at their best would be a bloodbath but circumstances seem to have conspired to mean we may never see that.
Contador's powers are on the wane. I half suspect he did the Giro because he never really believed he could manage a three-way with Froome and Quintana and wanted a GT in the bag.
Pussy!
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Not so sure - Froome always looks wrecked so it's hard to tell sometimes.Looking at the photos of Froome on that climb he was seriously on the rivet...You only need two tools: WD40 and Duck Tape.
If it doesn't move and should, use the WD40.
If it shouldn't move and does, use the tape.0 -
For all the talk of Froome crushing opponents in the mountains, after three mountain stages much of the gaps in GC is still down to time lost in the first stages up North on the flat. Without the time lost in the first week, Froome would be leading Quintana by a minute, Valverde by two, and Contador by three; nothing decisive. Of course Froome may have ridden differently with smaller margins, but I didn't get the impression he could have opened a big gap yesterday.0
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This!
Froome was the rival that Schleck never was.I just know that watching Contador and others when he was flying against Schleck and others in year's gone by got me into unbelievable levels of excitement, emotional overdrive, pure unadulterated joy. I haven't felt that for a very long time, just now and again when you see some heroics.
Contador has never raced anyone who looked like they could match him on the climbs and in the TT.
In 2009 I willed Frandy to bring it to Contador but in my heart of hearts I knew that Contador was the better all round GT rider. You can not say that against Froome. Both men at their best would be a bloodbath but circumstances seem to have conspired to mean we may never see that.
Contador's powers are on the wane. I half suspect he did the Giro because he never really believed he could manage a three-way with Froome and Quintana and wanted a GT in the bag.
Pussy!
I wouldn't be surprised if Contador does one last tour next year and specifically focuses on it maybe adding some extra team ammunition to give it one last full tilt v Froome.0 -
It's each to their own. One man's rubbish is an other man's treasure.[url=http://www.bikeradar.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=19654551#p19654551]The Loyal Lieutenant[/url] wrote:I actually have. Well, let me rephrase that, I bought it, started reading it and just couldn't get on with it. Put it down just after the African stuff (his time at Barloworld I think) and I've never picked it up again. I'm willing to give it another go though if you feel it's worthwhile.
Foucault's Pendulum by Umberto Eco is supposedly a great of modern literature. But I got through it just like Michael Matthews and Adam Hansen are getting through this Tour - with no pleasure, but the satisfaction of finishing.
That's more than I managed. I pulled a Dumoulin (insert other riders who DNF on stage 3) on that one.Correlation is not causation.0 -
Contador is the Greatest0 -
Contador is the Greatest0 -
Contador is the Greatest0 -
Such a great photo there. Much gritting of teeth. Everyone looks done in!0 -
[url=http://www.bikeradar.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=19654551#p19654551]The Loyal Lieutenant[/url] wrote:
But is he allowed to show his personality? He lives in a world were a shelf stacker at his team's warehouse having a short term contract for US Postal 16 years ago is a story.[url=http://www.bikeradar.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=19654495#p19654495]The Loyal Lieutenant[/url] wrote:I suspect it's Froome's personality, or rather lack there of, that prevents some people warming to him. People want charismatic GC contenders, not PR polished grey men who are scared to take a stand or say anything controversial.
How can you operate in that world and be a real person? You have to shut down and be as bland as possible.
Football experienced this first. Every slight misplaced utterance to a leading question became a back page story. Then people asked where the characters were.
It's easy to be a character if you are the likes of Adam Hansen and that's all people actually want to talk about. Once upon a time Chris Froome was a plucky young Kenyan kid with stories about misadventures in Africa being chased by hippos. Has he become more boring, or has he adapted to his environment?
(As an aside, I guessing you haven't read Froome's autobiography. Up to the 2011 Vuelta, it's really entertaining - as good a sporting auto as I've read. But then it becomes standard sports book fair)
I actually have. Well, let me rephrase that, I bought it, started reading it and just couldn't get on with it. Put it down just after the African stuff (his time at Barloworld I think) and I've never picked it up again. I'm willing to give it another go though if you feel it's worthwhile.
The book I am really looking forward to is David Millar's new autobiography; his first was excellent.
That's going to be my holiday read next week, when I've finished Land of Second Chances, which is an excellent read.Cube - Peloton
Cannondale - CAAD100 -
Some excellent photos there FF.0
