Are sky clean or not?
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disgruntledgoat wrote:Name another that wasn't US Postal/Disco.
Already have: viewtopic.php?p=19931267#p19931267.0 -
Salsiccia1 wrote:Mountain train =/= doped
US Postal could afford to employ riders in a mountain train, the same way Sky can. It wasn't the doping that made it a mountain train. It is the same as Sky, lots of good riders paid enough to ride for Lance.
Correlation does not imply causation.
Who were the good clean riders on the Postal train?0 -
CuthbertC wrote:disgruntledgoat wrote:Name another that wasn't US Postal/Disco.
Already have: viewtopic.php?p=19931267#p19931267.
Fair's fair, you didn't go for the example I thought you would.
Liquigas? Got any evidence they were doping? Basso was with Aldo Sassi during his time there?
Banesto: I don't remember them having much of a train. I don't remember seeing any of them apart from Indurain at the sharp end in the mountains. Besides, they didn't really need it with his complete dominance of time trialling."In many ways, my story was that of a raging, Christ-like figure who hauled himself off the cross, looked up at the Romans with blood in his eyes and said 'My turn, sock cookers'"
@gietvangent0 -
CuthbertC wrote:
'Doped or otherwise'? Aren't you claiming that they're clean?
Read again and this time properly:bobmcstuff wrote:
If you actually read most of the more reasoned posts on here (not the ones where people come in and write "he's definitely clean" and leave again), most people seem to be of a similar attitude, i.e., you wouldn't bet your house on Froome or any other pro cyclist on being clean but at the moment the "evidence" is almost entirely conjecture and we're more interested in the actual bike racing.CuthbertC wrote::?: Based on what I've read in this thread, at least 90% of the posters seem to believe that Sky/Wiggins/Froome are clean.
I know that nuanced views don't go down well on the clinic though so I understand the difficulty you have with that.
Other people thinking the same or similar:Garry H wrote:inseine wrote:
Anyone with any sense is a little bit suspect of every cyclist, every athlete, but Froome and SKY dont stand out.Matthewfalle wrote:But on a serious note - no one suspects anything even a little bit suss?
That, wot he said.Salsiccia1 wrote:Cuthbert: you're right, most people on here think Sky/Froome are clean. Unfortunately, nothing presented really adds up to a smoking gun and we'll all want something more concrete. There is an element of nationalism in the forming of opinions, it's a British-leaning forum, but I think most of us are objective enough to consider real evidence. However, the arguments presented are the same flimsy ones that have been discussed time and time again and don't give evidence of anything.
Edit: what Bobmcstuff said.Richmond Racer 2 wrote:Do I find his sudden transformation into the leading Tour rider of the last 4 years, suss? Yes, yes I do. But I'll settle for waiting to see if anything comes out rather than go screeching Doper Doper around the internet non-stop.
Better things to do with my life, for one thing.
They might be doping, we don't know - but your supposed "evidence" is just a witch hunt. "Guilty until proven innocent" (which conveniently is impossible to prove)0 -
CuthbertC wrote:Salsiccia1 wrote:Mountain train =/= doped
US Postal could afford to employ riders in a mountain train, the same way Sky can. It wasn't the doping that made it a mountain train. It is the same as Sky, lots of good riders paid enough to ride for Lance.
Correlation does not imply causation.
Who were the good clean riders on the Postal train?
Don't know, there might not have been any. But that's not the point. I'll make the point again, just because a team can afford enough good riders to have a mountain train doesn't mean that they are all doping. US Postal probably all were, but they were all doping even if they hadn't ridden as a mountain train.
Mountain train does not automatically equal doping. It's perfectly possible to have a lot of good riders ride a certain tactic well without doping, if the riders are good enough.
It's a bit like saying 'My wife is English, and she loves cats. So that means all English people like cats'. That's very poor logic.It's only a bit of sport, Mun. Relax and enjoy the racing.0 -
disgruntledgoat wrote:CuthbertC wrote:disgruntledgoat wrote:Name another that wasn't US Postal/Disco.
Already have: viewtopic.php?p=19931267#p19931267.
Fair's fair, you didn't go for the example I thought you would.
Liquigas? Got any evidence they were doping? Basso was with Aldo Sassi during his time there?
Banesto: I don't remember them having much of a train. I don't remember seeing any of them apart from Indurain at the sharp end in the mountains. Besides, they didn't really need it with his complete dominance of time trialling.
Liquigas: Di Luca, Basso and Pellizotti all being convicted blood dopers means I know they were doping. Kreuziger only survived his passport case due to a creative excuse. Nibali is just an obvious doper (linked to Ferrari, 4 Grand Tours, leader on Astana, etc). Magni (Pantani's doctor at Mercatone Uno) was a team doctor. I could go on but I'm sure you get the picture.
An interesting little Ferrari story on Liquigas:I do not personally know Dr. Zorzoli, but I already mentioned on another article how he made some Biological Passport blood tests of three Liquigas athletes training on Teide in 2010 "disappear", since the Team Doctor (a friend of his) deemed them as "unreliable" and insidious for the ABP profile of the riders.
http://www.53x12.com/#!circ-2015/tox1q
Banesto: to be fair, their train had nothing on US Postal, so I can see where you're coming from. I still think they had a good train during the early 90s, keeping in mind they had a horde of fellow mutants to deal with. Regardless, Banesto had a proper team doping program, so there isn't much point in wondering if they're an example of a clean train.
By the way, a far more recent example of a doped train, albeit at a lower level of racing - W52 at the Volta this year. They've been in action during the last two stages. Yesterday was a particularly good example.0 -
In any bike race, regardless of terrain, standard, gender or the amount of doping in the peloton, the stronger teams will seek to dictate the pace in the key moments. It's why they have recruited and picked those riders. And the biggest factor in team strength is team budget.
If you think that the way Sky utilise their team is the same US Postal because they have riders on the front then you have little understanding of cycling tactics. It's the same as thinking every football team that lines up in a 4-4-2 formation plays the same way.Twitter: @RichN950 -
:shock: don't know the rules, nor the history but I think you have to be l little more circumspect with how you phrase stuff, Froome, Nibali or whomever.CuthbertC wrote:[
Liquigas: Di Luca, Basso and Pellizotti all being convicted blood dopers means I know they were doping. Kreuziger only survived his passport case due to a creative excuse. Nibali is just an obvious doper (linked to Ferrari, 4 Grand Tours, leader on Astana, etc). Magni (Pantani's doctor at Mercatone Uno) was a team doctor. I could go on but I'm sure you get the picture.0 -
RichN95 wrote:
David Brailsford explains to Ed Clancy his plan to break and reset his collarbone to improve aerodynamics.Above The Cows wrote:
Yay someone else saw it too! I thought I'd leave it sans caption to see if anyone else saw Brailsford and Clancy.
Correlation is not causation.0 -
bobmcstuff wrote:dennisn wrote:Wow, is it possible that this thread will eclipse Lances in number of pages? What is the longest doping thread on BR?
To be fair I'm not sure 10 pages of pictures of Sesame Street and the Muppets really constitutes a thread about doping...
Lot's more fun though eh?Correlation is not causation.0 -
bobmcstuff wrote:We should have a Muppets/Sesame Street meets Pro Race caption competition.
Yes we should...
Tim Kerrison explains to the Sky neo pros the difference between correlation and causation.Correlation is not causation.0 -
We're still awaiting some evidence it appears.
Although both 'Doping' and 'Dave' contain the letter 'D'.
It's a fair cop guv.0 -
RichN95 wrote:Next on ITV4 - David Millar interviews Tim Kerrison
Winner!Correlation is not causation.0 -
This is like the discussions about USPS and the Disco Boys over ten years ago. The doubters were in the minority then as they are now.
And now for this lovely tune.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yzLT6_TQmq8“Life is like riding a bicycle. To keep your balance you must keep moving”- Albert Einstein
"You can't ride the Tour de France on mineral water."
-Jacques Anquetil0 -
jerry3571 wrote:This is like the discussions about USPS and the Disco Boys over ten years ago. The doubters were in the minority then as they are now.
And now for this lovely tune.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yzLT6_TQmq8
Says someone who clearly hasn't read the thread.0 -
No, What's the story in a few sentences please? x “Life is like riding a bicycle. To keep your balance you must keep moving”- Albert Einstein
"You can't ride the Tour de France on mineral water."
-Jacques Anquetil0 -
jerry3571 wrote:No, What's the story in a few sentences please? x
A few people are 100% convinced he's clean. They seem to be a minority.
A few people are convinced he's doping. Most of them appear to be here with the sole purpose of getting as many pages as possible into this thread as they seem to have no other interest in pro cycling beyond doping.
Most of the posters on this forum seem to have a slightly more reasoned view that you wouldn't bet your life on any pro cyclist being clean but that the current "evidence" is no more than aspersions and prejudice that wouldn't meet any minimum standards for evidence in any situation (except apparently for keyboard warriors).
Unfortunately some people only see in black and white.
There's also a side discussion where people add captions to pictures of the muppets and sesame street and is probably the most sensible thing on here.0 -
At least they aren't catching trains so that's progress. Ok, very good, carry on.
I dropped a rider off at the train station 2 weeks ago as his legs had gone on our club ride. I enjoyed thinking about the history of this.
“Life is like riding a bicycle. To keep your balance you must keep moving”- Albert Einstein
"You can't ride the Tour de France on mineral water."
-Jacques Anquetil0 -
As far as I can see the only dodgy thing Sky have done is hire Leinders. Even then they sacked him when his history was revealed. Any idea how long her actually worked there ?
There was A LOT of smoke around Lance, not seen any around Froome or any Sky riders. That makes a big difference to me0 -
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Oh dear, oh dear or dear.
Here's Lance's best mate.
I saw LA having a one to one with Yates as Yates was just retiring after the Leeds Classic Race. I think LA was world champion at the time with Motorola.
Think Jim Ochowitz was part of that set up and he eventually headed to BMC. Cycling generally doesn't wash it's dirty stuff in the open until someone screws up.
News Corporation/Sky used to have US Presidents and our Prime Ministers by the balls so I'm sure cycling is a walk in the park.“Life is like riding a bicycle. To keep your balance you must keep moving”- Albert Einstein
"You can't ride the Tour de France on mineral water."
-Jacques Anquetil0 -
Just correcting the above post. Wish you beat me to it as I'd be in bed asleep by now. Faster next time please Mr Ddraver.
God, I've argued the toss with you a few years ago and you're still a flat earth chap. One day you'll see and have a little cry and that people have lied to you.
Sure you think USPS are still clean. Beddies for me. Better use of time.“Life is like riding a bicycle. To keep your balance you must keep moving”- Albert Einstein
"You can't ride the Tour de France on mineral water."
-Jacques Anquetil0 -
RichN95 wrote:
I don't think he's got that far yet. He's only up to Motorola.ddraver wrote:....have you just discovered that Yates worked for Sky????
starting to see some of the problems here...
Argh! Flat earthers!! Only Paris Roubaix for you kiddies. :P
Night night.“Life is like riding a bicycle. To keep your balance you must keep moving”- Albert Einstein
"You can't ride the Tour de France on mineral water."
-Jacques Anquetil0 -
RichN95 wrote:
I don't think he's got that far yet. He's only up to Motorola.ddraver wrote:....have you just discovered that Yates worked for Sky????
starting to see some of the problems here...
Has Jerry got to the bit where Lance got hacked off that he gone done got no respect for his rainbow jersey from dem dirty Europeans?
That's gonna BLOW Jerry's mind0
