Are sky clean or not?
Comments
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So, I have to ask why you watch then. Are you just masochistic or is there something else? If I thought the riders were all juiced i wouldnt watch. After what I consider to be a farcical application of the rules at the Giro I stopped watching. I didnt miss it. There was rugby, football, tennis etc to watch instead. Hell, I didnt even need to watch another sport as I could watch the XCO and DH world cups at the weekend.
I think it was earlier in this thread that Vino's Ghost said that he would never accept that Sky are riding the tour clean even past the day he dies. That's ridiculous. It's not a position at all. We will never ever be able to prove that Sky rode these races clean.
DD, not sure if you're talking to me, but if you are, then it's because I love cycling. Absolutely love watching it. I still watch the betamax videos I made of Chiappucci et al on the old C4 1/2 hour slot. And I'll watch cycling for ever - to me it's the perfect sport.
But for a good few seasons now I'd much rather watch anything but the TDF. It's just become a bit odd. Whereas the spring / autumn classics, the worlds, etc all seem to retain some honesty.
NotAD, I don't doubt it, but everyone else is still funded to win, by people who care, employing people who know their stuff, and it's mad to think that everyone else is so amateurish that it would have such a difference in real time.
Will be really interesting to see what unfolds in the rest of the Tour and beyond. Truth will no doubt out one way or the other, it usually does.Merckx EMX 5
Ribble 7005 Audax / Campag Centaur
RIP - Scott Speedster S100 -
A couple of things to add that I don't think have been mentioned:
- Thomas GT position, as highlighted, was decent in 2011, and even more so once we remember he stood stationary on the road for about 2 minutes (possibly whilst in the White Jersey?) whilst Brad rolled around before finally admitting his collar bone had had it.
- 2013 stage 9 - Movistar blew it. Froome was isolated, desperate. And they (probably Valverde) decided to try and stick Porte out of the GC (which was inevitable anyway, and certainly would have had more ch aces to do so over the next 11 stages). When they should have been walloping guys off the front - they had multiple matches to burn - and forcing Froome to chase - they rode hard but consistent for much of the stage and he could sit on it. It was on,y late on that Nairo started to stick bursts in on the climb, which Froome knew he could match as it was not far to go. Had Movistar worked Froome over that could have been a very different tour.0 -
All footballers train and work hard. They all have sports scientists and doctors helping them, and managers advising on tactics. But they don't all turn their careers around from average to world beating.All cyclists train and work hard. They all have sports scientists and doctors helping them, and DSs advising on tactics. But they don't all turn their careers around from average to world beating.
All tennis players train and work hard. They all have sports scientists and doctors helping them, and coaches advising on tactics. But they don't all turn their careers around from average to world beating.
Etc, etc. It's almost like individual aptitude and talent has some role to play :shock:
Really? Every single case? Throughout all of human sporting history, nobody has ever done that? Where's the line by the way? How long does a "transformation" have to take in order for it to flip from "He's totally doping" to "Seems legit"?Whenever this has happened before, it's later been found out to be false.
I really don't see why they should bother to be honest. It's not like anything they publish is going to change your absolute conviction masquerading as "cynicism", is it? Same goes for the people on Twitter throwing around W/kg figures as if they mean something. You think anything Sky can provide is going to make those people think "OK, fair enough, that answers my questions. I'll just stop hounding them constantly now!"? Giving up their claim to the attention of thousands of followers in the process? Yes, that seems realistic...If CF has unique physiology - as DB is currently suggesting - then do the tests and publicise the stats, because nothing is going to change the facts and so who cares who knows it,they can't do anything with it.
Again with the "sudden change" thing. Are you trying to hit it at least once in every post?or people who quickly change from one to the other, do stand out as warning signs.
What exactly has become "much less believable" in the last 3 years? 2012 was by far the most dominant Sky have ever been at the Tour.Mr P, yes watching Wiggo win the tour was amazing, but I think I was a bit biased... Stupid emotion at the first GB win I guess, but wouldn't change it for the world. My view now is just a bit different, because it's becoming much less believable and I do have a lot of doubts.0 -
Wiggo?Mr P, yes watching Wiggo win the tour was amazing, but I think I was a bit biased... Stupid emotion at the first GB win I guess, but wouldn't change it for the world. My view now is just a bit different, because it's becoming much less believable and I do have a lot of doubts.
Surely Wiggo looked too vulnerable to be a real doping contender - you always felt it would blow up at any moment for him other than when he was on his TT bike - where of course he utterly excels.
I have never seen a performance from Wiggo that was "out of this world" enough to make me think he was doping.You only need two tools: WD40 and Duck Tape.
If it doesn't move and should, use the WD40.
If it shouldn't move and does, use the tape.0 -
At last, a sensible post, I agree 100% with you.Plenty of teams are using the marginal gains that they laughed at when Sky brought them to the peloton (or were early adopters). Warming down on rollers? Everyone does it now. Own mattresses and pillows? Yep. Mahoosive luxury bus? As big as can be afforded. Kitchen bus? Yep.
How many teams still leave training in the hands of riders own trainers instead if the team? How many don't have a performance analyst crunching training and race data?
Sky have done loads to modernize and professionalize running a cycling team, and they're still ahead of the game. But they chuck a shed load if money at it that not all teams can afford.'Performance analysis and Froome not being clean was a media driven story. I haven’t heard one guy in the peloton say a negative thing about Froome, and I haven’t heard a single person in the peloton suggest Froome isn’t clean.' TSP0 -
The biggest evidence against Froome is his transformation.
I see the likes of Digger Forum on twitter say 'can you name another transformation like him'
The answer is no I can't.
But why can't I?
If this transformation was due to doping then..,,
...it was available to a low level rider, out of contract, on about 100k a year
...it made 'autobus fodder' into GC podium riders
...no-on else has taken up this transforming drug
If it was down to doping why is he the only one? In the early 90s there were transformations. They were followed by many more.
jalabert"If I was a 38 year old man, I definitely wouldn't be riding a bright yellow bike with Hello Kitty disc wheels, put it that way. What we're witnessing here is the world's most high profile mid-life crisis" Afx237vi Mon Jul 20, 2009 2:43 pm0 -
But are you treating every pro Sky article as nationalistic. Maybe they are just right. Please disassociate opinions from nationality.Again (and as per my earlier post, which was similar) - I'm reading the tone, rather than the words. I think to be honest I'm doing that in light of the media articles which are all ragingly positive and nationalistic, so apologies for that. It's just it comes across that way when that is what you're expecting (the reverse is true, on this forum when some people think someone is anti-Sky / trolling, so I'm going to claim forgiveness on that....)
I think that Led Zeppelin are the greatest rock band of all time. I will say they are better than Aerosmith. Is this nationalistic?
I like to see Sky doing well and I like to see British riders doing well, but I also admire riders and teams from other countries. I like to see the British doing well because I feel that is needed to grow the sport here. I want to hear more about cycling on radio bulletins outwith the Tour, I want to read more about cycling in newspapers, I want to talk about it with more work colleagues. A strong British presence makes all of that more likely in the medium term. However, falsified and speculative 'won't get tricked again' doping stories are negative and detract from the achievements being made.
I don't blindly believe Sky are clean; I am fairly open-minded but do err on the side of 'no smoke, no fire, no evidence'. The 'evidence' presented by the tinfoil hat brigade is a toxic blend of supposition, innuendo and guilt by past-association, nothing more. Leinders doped riders at Rabo, the US Postal soigneur rubbed LA's ball, Yates 'only drove the car' at Discovery, de Jongh, Barry and Julich admitted they doped, JTL doped at Endura, Servais Knaven swears blind he didn't do anything bad in the past... none of this means these guys were up to anything sinister at Sky.0 -
It is fairly common for winners on MTFs to get a minute or so in this kind of stage as well, so I don't really know why it's so extra-ordinary.
It's a bike race - guess what, someone will ride faster than someone else.
If you can't understand that, go watch another sport, and don't bug this forum with it.
You'll find plenty of like minded people in the cycling news clinic.
It's also fairly common for winners on MTFs to be doping.
You've obviously made up your mind about sky and Chris Froome doping and your mind is now closed to discussion.Go back to the clinic with the rest of the bitter and twisted,or, as I told them on their forum before I laughably got banned,go watch golf!0 -
Is it possible that because some of these guys were too young to watch the Armstrong years and go "pfffffft no way!" they want their very own doping scandal to enjoy?"In many ways, my story was that of a raging, Christ-like figure who hauled himself off the cross, looked up at the Romans with blood in his eyes and said 'My turn, sock cookers'"
@gietvangent0 -
jalabert
Crashes at Armentiere as a green jersey contender.
Comes back as a polka dot contender.
And yesterday accuses Froome of doping.
Well he'd know I guess.
:roll:Napoleon, don't be jealous that I've been chatting online with babes all day. Besides, we both know that I'm training to be a cage fighter.0 -
[url=http://www.bikeradar.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=19654818#p19654818]disgruntledgoat[/url] wrote:Is it possible that because some of these guys were too young to watch the Armstrong years and go "pfffffft no way!" they want their very own doping scandal to enjoy?
Who knows.
I started watching pro cycling in 1986. I 'believed' throughout the EPO years because I was naive and loved the sport. Look how we got burned.
So now I see every performance through the prism of the burned.
But I still want to believe. That is a head scratcher.Napoleon, don't be jealous that I've been chatting online with babes all day. Besides, we both know that I'm training to be a cage fighter.0 -
Froome has said the following:
Team Sky team manager Dave Brailsford has already denied to Cyclingnews that Team Sky had ever used ketones, and Froome did the same, even calling Van Den Bosch this morning before the stage.
“I just touched base with him, talked about Team Sky and myself, about using ketones drink,” Froome explained. “That’s crazy. I had to Google it find out what it is. But I can say 100% that the team does not use ketones
This tweet is from 2012.
Paul Chamberlain @PCNutrition 13 Dec 2012
British cycling training for ketone use as fuel. Part training part diet strategy but details are secret! #isenc12
https://twitter.com/PCNutrition/status/279181826906529793***** Pro Tour Pundit Champion 2020, 2018, 2017 & 2011 *****0 -
Did he really? For a couple of years his TV commentary has been peppered with insinuations, but I missed any direct accusations yesterday.And yesterday accuses Froome of doping.
Laurent Jalabert described Froome’s victory at the La Pierre-Saint-Martin summit finish on Tuesday as “uncomfortable to watch,” while Cedric Vasseur said the Briton’s bike “seemed to be pedaling itself.”
Both were professional cyclists during the sport’s darkest days of doping, the 1990s and the early part of the opening decade of this century.
Jalabert has never admitted to doping but a retroactive test in 2013 on a blood sample he gave in 2004 came up positive for the banned blood-booster EPO, according to L’Equipe newspaper.
Read more at http://velonews.competitor.com/2015/07/news/froome-blasts-french-critics_378379#tflXWCdggzpLclQT.99
Nothing direct but I suspect that's simply to protect against any legal actions. He may as well have said it.
For a rider who never admitted it to start chucking accusations around is a bit rich. Jalabert's transformation went way beyond anything we see with Froome.Napoleon, don't be jealous that I've been chatting online with babes all day. Besides, we both know that I'm training to be a cage fighter.0 -
This tweet is from 2012.
Paul Chamberlain @PCNutrition 13 Dec 2012
British cycling training for ketone use as fuel. Part training part diet strategy but details are secret! #isenc12
https://twitter.com/PCNutrition/status/279181826906529793
Is this English? I don't actually understand what it means.Correlation is not causation.0 -
I think that Led Zeppelin are the greatest rock band of all time. I will say they are better than Aerosmith. Is this nationalistic?
No, it's fact
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This tweet is from 2012.
Paul Chamberlain @PCNutrition 13 Dec 2012
British cycling training for ketone use as fuel. Part training part diet strategy but details are secret! #isenc12
https://twitter.com/PCNutrition/status/279181826906529793
Is this English? I don't actually understand what it means.
http://www.cyclingweekly.co.uk/news/latest-news/ketones-controversial-new-energy-drink-next-big-thing-cycling-151877
That explains a bit about ketones. Basically ketones make it a lot easier for your body to break down fat to use as fuel instead of using all your carb stores. If you google "cycling ketones" there's a lot of information that comes up on how they can improve your performance.***** Pro Tour Pundit Champion 2020, 2018, 2017 & 2011 *****0 -
This tweet is from 2012.
Paul Chamberlain @PCNutrition 13 Dec 2012
British cycling training for ketone use as fuel. Part training part diet strategy but details are secret! #isenc12
https://twitter.com/PCNutrition/status/279181826906529793
Is this English? I don't actually understand what it means.
The ketone story is total nonsense.<a><img></a>0 -
This tweet is from 2012.
Paul Chamberlain @PCNutrition 13 Dec 2012
British cycling training for ketone use as fuel. Part training part diet strategy but details are secret! #isenc12
https://twitter.com/PCNutrition/status/279181826906529793
Is this English? I don't actually understand what it means.
Aren't ketones just a supposed weight loss supplement thing that was in vogue a couple of years ago?
Anyway you can buy them in Holland & Barrett so I'm not sure why it would be so controversial if they were using them. Unless there's some difference between raspberry ketones and special cycling ketones.0 -
I really meant my comment as a snark about the absolutely illegible language used in a tweet.Correlation is not causation.0
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Thanks for the VeloNews link, Gweed. For some reason it doesn’t show up on their home page, so I missed it – and this story.
The individual words appear to be English. Who knows what they mean in that order.This tweet is from 2012.
Paul Chamberlain @PCNutrition 13 Dec 2012
British cycling training for ketone use as fuel. Part training part diet strategy but details are secret! #isenc12
https://twitter.com/PCNutrition/status/279181826906529793
Is this English? I don't actually understand what it means.
I think it's what happens when you talk out of your arse.Correlation is not causation.0 -
This tweet is from 2012.
Paul Chamberlain @PCNutrition 13 Dec 2012
British cycling training for ketone use as fuel. Part training part diet strategy but details are secret! #isenc12
https://twitter.com/PCNutrition/status/279181826906529793
Is this English? I don't actually understand what it means.
Aren't ketones just a supposed weight loss supplement thing that was in vogue a couple of years ago?
Anyway you can buy them in Holland & Barrett so I'm not sure why it would be so controversial if they were using them. Unless there's some difference between raspberry ketones and special cycling ketones.
I doubt Team Sky are jumping on the £1 sale at holland and barrett. I don't know how these ketones are made but I guess with getting Oxford University involved there is some special science that your rasperberry ketones don't really have.
There's a couple more links here. GB rowing confirmed as using them.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7JzztRG449g
http://www.palmares.co.uk/project/ketones/
If they gave you a 2% edge as they say then in top level sport 2% can make all the difference so I wouldn't be surprised if they did use them. And at £2000 a litre they can afford it.***** Pro Tour Pundit Champion 2020, 2018, 2017 & 2011 *****0 -
What would be wrong with taking ketones anyway? WADA are fully aware of them and have said they have no problem with them ( not even on their watch list). They're no more sinister than protein shakes.
Ooo protein? Dodgy.Correlation is not causation.0 -
Just as an aside I'm not saying Sky are 100% doping. Maybe they are, maybe they're not.
I grew up watching Armstrong and believing those performances, where US Postal will drill it up a climb all day and if you watched that and then watched Team Sky it is very similar. So now when I see a team drilling it up a climb, there leader leaving everyone for dead and watching there cobble classic rider climbing with some of the best climbers in the world then naturally i'm skeptical. But who knows really, we can all post on forums but at the end of the day until there's a positive doping test or another fall out like Armstrong then we won't know.***** Pro Tour Pundit Champion 2020, 2018, 2017 & 2011 *****0 -
Isn't this ketone thing just teaching your body to use ketones as fuel? Fasted training and that kind of thingFckin' Quintana … that creep can roll, man.0
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Isn't this ketone thing just teaching your body to use ketones as fuel? Fasted training and that kind of thing
That stuff is the worst. The utter worst."In many ways, my story was that of a raging, Christ-like figure who hauled himself off the cross, looked up at the Romans with blood in his eyes and said 'My turn, sock cookers'"
@gietvangent0 -
Fckin' Quintana … that creep can roll, man.0
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Froome not happy with Jalabert seeming to question how he can climb so well. Froomes says that as an ex rider he should know about inspiring the public and he should be setting a better tone. Bit rich coming from Jalabert too.0
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It's in the interests of dopers or ex dopers to believe everyone else is doping. It makes them feel better about their own cheating and keeps the self loathing at bay.0
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I think that's part of it, plus many of them feel they're being incredibly perceptive and intelligent by refusing to believe Sky can be clean. They like to think they know what's really going on.[url=http://www.bikeradar.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=19654818#p19654818]disgruntledgoat[/url] wrote:Is it possible that because some of these guys were too young to watch the Armstrong years and go "pfffffft no way!" they want their very own doping scandal to enjoy?
For the more popular Twitter "experts", there's also the need to keep banging the "Sky are doping" drum as loudly as possible so they can continue to attract followers who hang on their every word. They're about as far from objective observers as it is possible to get because they have such a vested interest in maintaining and stoking the controversy. They're simply not interested in anything that might indicate Sky are clean because their whole claim to fame is based on exposing them as the doping scumbags they so obviously are :roll:0
