Are sky clean or not?

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  • disgruntledgoat
    disgruntledgoat Posts: 8,957
    Re: Simmons here are 2 of my favourite articles of his

    1. Finally going into PEDs in American Sports

    http://grantland.com/features/daring-ask-ped-question/

    2. His Dog's obituary

    http://espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=simmons/090122
    "In many ways, my story was that of a raging, Christ-like figure who hauled himself off the cross, looked up at the Romans with blood in his eyes and said 'My turn, sock cookers'"

    @gietvangent
  • talius
    talius Posts: 282
    Rich, do you think other teams don't have tactics? do their sponsors/DSs/Drs etc not have videos or access to the internet?

    Is that what you're suggesting? because it sounds like that. Sky have great (but simple) tactics / no one else has thought to copy them.
    Merckx EMX 5
    Ribble 7005 Audax / Campag Centaur

    RIP - Scott Speedster S10
  • Turfle
    Turfle Posts: 3,762
    [url=http://www.bikeradar.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=19654572#p19654572]RichN95[/url] wrote:
    [url=http://www.bikeradar.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=19654567#p19654567]Turfle[/url] wrote:
    Teddy Cutler #1 journalist.
    Cutler's funny. He won a student award (big f*ing deal) and he thinks he's the man. Watching him criticise the very journalists that he wants to work with is spectacular. His hubris is amazing. He blusters on about the Armstrong years when he's only 23. He so wants to be the crusading journalist without regard to journalistic balance.
    When he's 35 he'll be writing the Aston Villa programme.

    You correctly spotted the odd one out.

    He's just incredibly out of this depth. You probably saw the twitter conversation between him, Friebe, Moore, and one or two others yesterday; it could not have been more apparent that right now he shouldn't be getting his stuff published in legitimate publications. That may say more about the state of cycling journalism in the national press than it says about him though.
  • Turfle
    Turfle Posts: 3,762
    [url=http://www.bikeradar.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=19654607#p19654607]disgruntledgoat[/url] wrote:
    Re: Simmons here are 2 of my favourite articles of his

    1. Finally going into PEDs in American Sports

    http://grantland.com/features/daring-ask-ped-question/

    2. His Dog's obituary

    http://espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=simmons/090122

    Love Bill Simmons. Can't wait for his ESPN contract to end.
  • disgruntledgoat
    disgruntledgoat Posts: 8,957
    [url=http://www.bikeradar.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=19654614#p19654614]Turfle[/url] wrote:
    [url=http://www.bikeradar.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=19654607#p19654607]disgruntledgoat[/url] wrote:
    Re: Simmons here are 2 of my favourite articles of his

    1. Finally going into PEDs in American Sports

    http://grantland.com/features/daring-ask-ped-question/

    2. His Dog's obituary

    http://espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=simmons/090122

    Love Bill Simmons. Can't wait for his ESPN contract to end.

    One of my favourite memories of my 20s is being on a 4 week road trip to races and cyclos with prizelists (riding) around Europe that somehow managed to be depressing and boring but having his 1st book in my bag which I read 3 times just to give me a chanve to smile every day.
    "In many ways, my story was that of a raging, Christ-like figure who hauled himself off the cross, looked up at the Romans with blood in his eyes and said 'My turn, sock cookers'"

    @gietvangent
  • RichN95.
    RichN95. Posts: 27,241
    edited July 2015
    [url=http://www.bikeradar.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=19654585#p19654585]disgruntledgoat[/url] wrote:

    I thought that... Then I started reading cycling anthology. And in 8 out of 10 articles I've been really disappointed. Some of them are great, the Dan Lloyd look into the Tour he rode was great, the long piece on Iban Mayos career was nice too. But Kenny Pryde is dross, a lot of the pieces are about the journalists themselves and if I read another " we're all sick of talking about doping, so I wrote 2000 words about it " I'll scream
    Talking about the Cycling Anthology, the most informative piece you need to read in those is in Volume 1, by Jeremy Whittle.

    In his essay he talks about seeing someone for Sky taking a bag of rubbish from the team bus to a public bin. It wasn't the nearest bin to the bus so JW was suspicious. In his article he says that he followed the person to the bin but didn't look at the contents. The theme of his story was how the sport had made him suspicious but he had ethically turned away from it in this case.

    That's boll0cks. You're a journalist. Look in the f*ing bin, Then you'll get your answers. He could have seen what was in the bin - he may have a had a great story, or maybe it was just a sandwich. But why find out when you can write about the suspicion?

    And that's where cycling journalism is now. Suspicion is easy to create and gets online clicks. Finding answers is harder and runs the risk of getting the wrong answer. Therefore economically, suspicion trumps truth.
    Twitter: @RichN95
  • mididoctors
    mididoctors Posts: 18,793
    edited July 2015
    [url=http://www.bikeradar.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=19654594#p19654594]underlayunderlay[/url] wrote:

    In the case of Postal of course, we know for sure they were doping, so perhaps they provide a useful control for looking at Sky?

    hmm... I think I'm more biased to thinking that sky are clean using the Lionel argument..para phrasing .."if sky are dirty then its so cynical it eclipses armstrong as a disgraceful scandal" rather that then any specific look at the racing. it would be so beyond the pail if sky are doping... jail time if its true and comes out...that bad

    I suppose the cobra's performances were truly unbelievable but they stood out so ridiculously he got caught pretty quick
    "If I was a 38 year old man, I definitely wouldn't be riding a bright yellow bike with Hello Kitty disc wheels, put it that way. What we're witnessing here is the world's most high profile mid-life crisis" Afx237vi Mon Jul 20, 2009 2:43 pm
  • mididoctors
    mididoctors Posts: 18,793
    [url=http://www.bikeradar.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=19654618#p19654618]RichN95[/url] wrote:
    [url=http://www.bikeradar.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=19654585#p19654585]disgruntledgoat[/url] wrote:

    I thought that... Then I started reading cycling anthology. And in 8 out of 10 articles I've been really disappointed. Some of them are great, the Dan Lloyd look into the Tour he rode was great, the long piece on Iban Mayos career was nice too. But Kenny Pryde is dross, a lot of the pieces are about the journalists themselves and if I read another " we're all sick of talking about doping, so I wrote 2000 words about it " I'll scream
    Talking about the Cycling Anthology, the most informative piece you need to read in those is in Volume 1, by Jeremy Whittle.

    In his essay he talks about seeing someone for Sky taking a bag of rubbish from the team bus to a public bin. It wasn't the nearest bin to the bus so JW was suspicious. In his article he says that he followed the person to the bin but didn't look at the contents. The theme of his story was how the sport had made him suspicious but he had ethically turned away from it in this case.

    That's boll0cks. You're a journalist. Look in the f*ing bin, Then you'll get your answers. He could have seen what was in the bin - he may have a had a great story, or maybe it was just a sandwich. But why find out when you can write about the suspicion?

    And that's where cycling journalism is now. Suspicion is easy to create. Find answers is harder and runs the risk of getting the wrong answer.

    that really is armstrong's legacy to us all thou isn't it?

    no one wants to get fooled again
    "If I was a 38 year old man, I definitely wouldn't be riding a bright yellow bike with Hello Kitty disc wheels, put it that way. What we're witnessing here is the world's most high profile mid-life crisis" Afx237vi Mon Jul 20, 2009 2:43 pm
  • Lanterne_Rogue
    Lanterne_Rogue Posts: 4,325
    [url=http://www.bikeradar.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=19654607#p19654607]disgruntledgoat[/url] wrote:
    Re: Simmons here are 2 of my favourite articles of his

    1. Finally going into PEDs in American Sports

    http://grantland.com/features/daring-ask-ped-question/

    2. His Dog's obituary

    http://espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=simmons/090122

    Enjoyed that. Reminds me a bit of Gideon Haigh, for some reason. Sadly most of his stuff gets paywalled these days.
    Twitter: @canocola @thedreadships
  • disgruntledgoat
    disgruntledgoat Posts: 8,957
    [url=http://www.bikeradar.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=19654618#p19654618]RichN95[/url] wrote:
    [url=http://www.bikeradar.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=19654585#p19654585]disgruntledgoat[/url] wrote:

    I thought that... Then I started reading cycling anthology. And in 8 out of 10 articles I've been really disappointed. Some of them are great, the Dan Lloyd look into the Tour he rode was great, the long piece on Iban Mayos career was nice too. But Kenny Pryde is dross, a lot of the pieces are about the journalists themselves and if I read another " we're all sick of talking about doping, so I wrote 2000 words about it " I'll scream
    Talking about the Cycling Anthology, the most informative piece you need to read in those is in Volume 1, by Jeremy Whittle.

    In his essay he talks about seeing someone for Sky taking a bag of rubbish from the team bus to a public bin. It wasn't the nearest bin to the bus so JW was suspicious. In his article he says that he followed the person to the bin but didn't look at the contents. The theme of his story was how the sport had made him suspicious but he had ethically turned away from it in this case.

    That's boll0cks. You're a journalist. Look in the f*ing bin, Then you'll get your answers. He could have seen what was in the bin - he may have a had a great story, or maybe it was just a sandwich. But why find out when you can write about the suspicion?

    And that's where cycling journalism is now. Suspicion is easy to create and gets online clicks. Finding answers is harder and runs the risk of getting the wrong answer. Therefore economically, suspicion rules.

    I only started with cycling anthology last month, but I had exactly the same reaction to that peice! Also, his book on doping was pish, principally because he never asked anyone about doping. He just related anecdotes and told us how it made him feel. Who cares how Jeremy Whittle feels or that he used to play 5 a side with some Labour ministers?
    "In many ways, my story was that of a raging, Christ-like figure who hauled himself off the cross, looked up at the Romans with blood in his eyes and said 'My turn, sock cookers'"

    @gietvangent
  • talius
    talius Posts: 282
    [url=http://www.bikeradar.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=19654457#p19654457]RichN95[/url] wrote:
    [url=http://www.bikeradar.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=19654376#p19654376]Talius[/url] wrote:
    So I think you are all missing the point.

    If you go back over 30 or 40 years of cycling (and athletics, and etc etc) then you will find that everytime something was exceptional, and too good to be true etc, then it was later found out to be genuinely too good to be true. No matter how much "oh, this time it's different, because: money, special physiology, unusual illness later cured, special diet, special pillows, pineapple juice, blah blah blah", to date 9 out of 10 times it has been later shown to be rubbish, and doping.

    Now this time it may be different, and maybe it is ketone drinks or blah blah blah, but if you are genuinely unbiased then you wouldn't be confident that it wasn't doping. You couldn't be confident. You might not like that, and might o-so-desperately be wishing it is all clean, but to be certain now is biased.

    But is it too good to be true? The 'Sky way' is pretty simple and straightforward. And it's not that extraordinary.

    Notice that they are more successful in stage races than one day races. This because they are far more formulaic and can be broken down in to key components. (Similarly on the track BC were much less successful in the madison and points races).

    Specifically, Sky have focused just on the final climb - which is typically 25-40 minutes. They train - as a team - so that the leader rides that negative split time trial. That is easily quantifiable in training with constant day to day monitoring of power files (not a one size fits all training plan from an outsider as used to be the case). The goal is to hit a certain power to weight ratio.

    Then they just have to make sure that the race to the bottom of that final climb is as easy as possible. This is done with two methods - money and pavlovian conditioning.
    First of all spend money on the riders you need to do the job, not the ones that necessarily have the results (Moneyball purchasing).
    Then, due to having a very deep squad, take charge of every single stage race and almost every single stage. Back in 2011 we all wondered at times why Sky were riding on the front, but by 2012 the others teams had been conditioned to expect Sky to control the peloton. That allowed Sky to control the peloton as they liked like a patron of old.

    As a result you get situations like today - a big multi col stage where they are allowed to arrive at the base of the final climb with six or seven men having ridden eleven minutes slower than Sep Vanmarcke. The peloton just allowed Sky to play to their strength.

    This is something the so called 'pseudoscientists' miss. Sky's entire strategy is set up to do a fast final climb. They may match some of the famous dopers on some of the climbs, but those dopers had done the same pace on the previous one or two climbs. In 2012 Sky were lead over one cat 1 climb by Cavendish.

    Now, I don't know if Sky are doping. I don't think they are. But I don't know is my position. But I've watched the evolution of cycling tactics from 1986 onwards and Sky's rejection of old world concepts like panache and souplesse and reliance on last climb TT seems the obvious way you would try to win clean.

    What teams need to learn if they want to beat Sky and Froome.
    1. If you wait until the final climb to cause trouble you are doing exactly what they want. They have to take them on as a team - maybe an alliance. As Sean Connery says in The Untouchables, "they put one of yours in the hospital, you put one of theirs in the morgue. That's the Chicago way, that's how you beat Capone"
    2. Froome has what poker players call 'a tell'. Half way up the climb count his team mates. If it is three or more - attack, he's on a bad day. If it's just one, he's about to attack.



    Rich, are you saying other teams don't have tactics? do their sponsors/DSs/Drs etc not have videos or access to the internet?

    Is that what you're suggesting? because it sounds like that: Sky have great (but simple) tactics (they have Sir DB etc etc) / no one else has thought to copy them.
    Merckx EMX 5
    Ribble 7005 Audax / Campag Centaur

    RIP - Scott Speedster S10
  • disgruntledgoat
    disgruntledgoat Posts: 8,957
    [url=http://www.bikeradar.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=19654626#p19654626]underlayunderlay[/url] wrote:
    [url=http://www.bikeradar.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=19654607#p19654607]disgruntledgoat[/url] wrote:
    Re: Simmons here are 2 of my favourite articles of his

    1. Finally going into PEDs in American Sports

    http://grantland.com/features/daring-ask-ped-question/

    2. His Dog's obituary

    http://espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=simmons/090122

    Enjoyed that. Reminds me a bit of Gideon Haigh, for some reason. Sadly most of his stuff gets paywalled these days.

    I nearly wrote Gideon Haigh for cricket... His 2005 Ashes blog for the Guardian was incredible writing and was it him who wrote A Lot of Hard Yakka?
    "In many ways, my story was that of a raging, Christ-like figure who hauled himself off the cross, looked up at the Romans with blood in his eyes and said 'My turn, sock cookers'"

    @gietvangent
  • Lanterne_Rogue
    Lanterne_Rogue Posts: 4,325
    [url=http://www.bikeradar.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=19654628#p19654628]Talius[/url] wrote:
    Rich, are you saying other teams don't have tactics? do their sponsors/DSs/Drs etc not have videos or access to the internet?

    Is that what you're suggesting? because it sounds like that: Sky have great (but simple) tactics (they have Sir DB etc etc) / no one else has thought to copy them.

    Sure they do. But hiring the best blokes to carry out those tactics and then executing them is cycling 101 - if Sky weren't there doing it then the next best team would be instead. The strongest team generally gets to dictate the race - it's why quite a few people think that TTTs are a terrible idea - they simply throw the strongest team another big juicy bone.

    Knowing what you're trying to beat is one thing. Countering it is another matter entirely.
    Twitter: @canocola @thedreadships
  • Lanterne_Rogue
    Lanterne_Rogue Posts: 4,325
    [url=http://www.bikeradar.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=19654632#p19654632]disgruntledgoat[/url] wrote:
    [url=http://www.bikeradar.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=19654626#p19654626]underlayunderlay[/url] wrote:
    [url=http://www.bikeradar.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=19654607#p19654607]disgruntledgoat[/url] wrote:
    Re: Simmons here are 2 of my favourite articles of his

    1. Finally going into PEDs in American Sports

    http://grantland.com/features/daring-ask-ped-question/

    2. His Dog's obituary

    http://espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=simmons/090122


    Enjoyed that. Reminds me a bit of Gideon Haigh, for some reason. Sadly most of his stuff gets paywalled these days.

    I nearly wrote Gideon Haigh for cricket... His 2005 Ashes blog for the Guardian was incredible writing and was it him who wrote A Lot of Hard Yakka?

    Apparently not: http://www.gideonhaigh.com/bibliography/. Plenty in there that sounds interesting though.

    And it was his 2005 blog for the Guardian that switched me onto him too, FWIW - he's still a name that makes me think 'I'll read that...'
    Twitter: @canocola @thedreadships
  • Turfle
    Turfle Posts: 3,762
    [url=http://www.bikeradar.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=19654616#p19654616]disgruntledgoat[/url] wrote:
    [url=http://www.bikeradar.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=19654614#p19654614]Turfle[/url] wrote:
    [url=http://www.bikeradar.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=19654607#p19654607]disgruntledgoat[/url] wrote:
    Re: Simmons here are 2 of my favourite articles of his

    1. Finally going into PEDs in American Sports

    http://grantland.com/features/daring-ask-ped-question/

    2. His Dog's obituary

    http://espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=simmons/090122

    Love Bill Simmons. Can't wait for his ESPN contract to end.

    One of my favourite memories of my 20s is being on a 4 week road trip to races and cyclos with prizelists (riding) around Europe that somehow managed to be depressing and boring but having his 1st book in my bag which I read 3 times just to give me a chanve to smile every day.

    I spend a lot of time in Boston, grew up a fan of all the Boston teams, so naturally have an affinity for him. I disagree with an awful lot of his actual sports opinions, but he writes so well that it doesn't really matter. I do blame him for the infestation of pop culture references that has blighted sports journalism in America for the last decade though.
  • ddraver
    ddraver Posts: 26,661
    [url=http://www.bikeradar.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=19654619#p19654619]mididoctors[/url] wrote:
    [url=http://www.bikeradar.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=19654594#p19654594]underlayunderlay[/url] wrote:

    In the case of Postal of course, we know for sure they were doping, so perhaps they provide a useful control for looking at Sky?

    Instead of "asking questions", try thinking of the answer yourself. Do you think that Team A using an effective tactic that Team B also used means that they are the same in every aspect of the sport. I would say no of course not. In the same way that me playing 4-4-2 with my local football team doesnt make me the same as Manchester United.

    Apply a bit of unemotional, unbiased thought to the things you watch or read.
    We're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
    - @ddraver
  • disgruntledgoat
    disgruntledgoat Posts: 8,957
    [url=http://www.bikeradar.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=19654642#p19654642]Turfle[/url] wrote:
    [url=http://www.bikeradar.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=19654616#p19654616]disgruntledgoat[/url] wrote:
    [url=http://www.bikeradar.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=19654614#p19654614]Turfle[/url] wrote:
    [url=http://www.bikeradar.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=19654607#p19654607]disgruntledgoat[/url] wrote:
    Re: Simmons here are 2 of my favourite articles of his

    1. Finally going into PEDs in American Sports

    http://grantland.com/features/daring-ask-ped-question/

    2. His Dog's obituary

    http://espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=simmons/090122

    Love Bill Simmons. Can't wait for his ESPN contract to end.

    One of my favourite memories of my 20s is being on a 4 week road trip to races and cyclos with prizelists (riding) around Europe that somehow managed to be depressing and boring but having his 1st book in my bag which I read 3 times just to give me a chanve to smile every day.

    I spend a lot of time in Boston, grew up a fan of all the Boston teams, so naturally have an affinity for him. I disagree with an awful lot of his actual sports opinions, but he writes so well that it doesn't really matter. I do blame him for the infestation of pop culture references that has blighted sports journalism in America for the last decade though.


    He is the original and best at it though...
    "In many ways, my story was that of a raging, Christ-like figure who hauled himself off the cross, looked up at the Romans with blood in his eyes and said 'My turn, sock cookers'"

    @gietvangent
  • bobmcstuff
    bobmcstuff Posts: 11,400
    [url=http://www.bikeradar.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=19654628#p19654628]Talius[/url] wrote:
    [url=http://www.bikeradar.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=19654457#p19654457]RichN95[/url] wrote:
    [url=http://www.bikeradar.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=19654376#p19654376]Talius[/url] wrote:
    So I think you are all missing the point.

    If you go back over 30 or 40 years of cycling (and athletics, and etc etc) then you will find that everytime something was exceptional, and too good to be true etc, then it was later found out to be genuinely too good to be true. No matter how much "oh, this time it's different, because: money, special physiology, unusual illness later cured, special diet, special pillows, pineapple juice, blah blah blah", to date 9 out of 10 times it has been later shown to be rubbish, and doping.

    Now this time it may be different, and maybe it is ketone drinks or blah blah blah, but if you are genuinely unbiased then you wouldn't be confident that it wasn't doping. You couldn't be confident. You might not like that, and might o-so-desperately be wishing it is all clean, but to be certain now is biased.

    But is it too good to be true? The 'Sky way' is pretty simple and straightforward. And it's not that extraordinary.

    Notice that they are more successful in stage races than one day races. This because they are far more formulaic and can be broken down in to key components. (Similarly on the track BC were much less successful in the madison and points races).

    Specifically, Sky have focused just on the final climb - which is typically 25-40 minutes. They train - as a team - so that the leader rides that negative split time trial. That is easily quantifiable in training with constant day to day monitoring of power files (not a one size fits all training plan from an outsider as used to be the case). The goal is to hit a certain power to weight ratio.

    Then they just have to make sure that the race to the bottom of that final climb is as easy as possible. This is done with two methods - money and pavlovian conditioning.
    First of all spend money on the riders you need to do the job, not the ones that necessarily have the results (Moneyball purchasing).
    Then, due to having a very deep squad, take charge of every single stage race and almost every single stage. Back in 2011 we all wondered at times why Sky were riding on the front, but by 2012 the others teams had been conditioned to expect Sky to control the peloton. That allowed Sky to control the peloton as they liked like a patron of old.

    As a result you get situations like today - a big multi col stage where they are allowed to arrive at the base of the final climb with six or seven men having ridden eleven minutes slower than Sep Vanmarcke. The peloton just allowed Sky to play to their strength.

    This is something the so called 'pseudoscientists' miss. Sky's entire strategy is set up to do a fast final climb. They may match some of the famous dopers on some of the climbs, but those dopers had done the same pace on the previous one or two climbs. In 2012 Sky were lead over one cat 1 climb by Cavendish.

    Now, I don't know if Sky are doping. I don't think they are. But I don't know is my position. But I've watched the evolution of cycling tactics from 1986 onwards and Sky's rejection of old world concepts like panache and souplesse and reliance on last climb TT seems the obvious way you would try to win clean.

    What teams need to learn if they want to beat Sky and Froome.
    1. If you wait until the final climb to cause trouble you are doing exactly what they want. They have to take them on as a team - maybe an alliance. As Sean Connery says in The Untouchables, "they put one of yours in the hospital, you put one of theirs in the morgue. That's the Chicago way, that's how you beat Capone"
    2. Froome has what poker players call 'a tell'. Half way up the climb count his team mates. If it is three or more - attack, he's on a bad day. If it's just one, he's about to attack.



    Rich, are you saying other teams don't have tactics? do their sponsors/DSs/Drs etc not have videos or access to the internet?

    Is that what you're suggesting? because it sounds like that: Sky have great (but simple) tactics (they have Sir DB etc etc) / no one else has thought to copy them.

    Sky have a lot of money, which might help a little?

    This thread's got a lot better the last few hours (and I don't think it's just because I've been in the pub for those hours?)
  • disgruntledgoat
    disgruntledgoat Posts: 8,957
    [url=http://www.bikeradar.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=19654639#p19654639]underlayunderlay[/url] wrote:
    [url=http://www.bikeradar.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=19654632#p19654632]disgruntledgoat[/url] wrote:
    [url=http://www.bikeradar.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=19654626#p19654626]underlayunderlay[/url] wrote:
    [url=http://www.bikeradar.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=19654607#p19654607]disgruntledgoat[/url] wrote:
    Re: Simmons here are 2 of my favourite articles of his

    1. Finally going into PEDs in American Sports

    http://grantland.com/features/daring-ask-ped-question/

    2. His Dog's obituary

    http://espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=simmons/090122


    Enjoyed that. Reminds me a bit of Gideon Haigh, for some reason. Sadly most of his stuff gets paywalled these days.

    I nearly wrote Gideon Haigh for cricket... His 2005 Ashes blog for the Guardian was incredible writing and was it him who wrote A Lot of Hard Yakka?

    Apparently not: http://www.gideonhaigh.com/bibliography/. Plenty in there that sounds interesting though.

    And it was his 2005 blog for the Guardian that switched me onto him too, FWIW - he's still a name that makes me think 'I'll read that...'

    I was thinking of The Vincibles
    "In many ways, my story was that of a raging, Christ-like figure who hauled himself off the cross, looked up at the Romans with blood in his eyes and said 'My turn, sock cookers'"

    @gietvangent
  • ddraver
    ddraver Posts: 26,661
    [url=http://www.bikeradar.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=19654628#p19654628]Talius[/url] wrote:
    Rich, are you saying other teams don't have tactics? do their sponsors/DSs/Drs etc not have videos or access to the internet?

    Is that what you're suggesting? because it sounds like that: Sky have great (but simple) tactics (they have Sir DB etc etc) / no one else has thought to copy them.

    of course they do. We saw movistar try and use the mountain train tactic on Stage 10 but they don't have the calibre of riders to hold it together. They put have put Sky in trouble (or as close as they have gotten to trouble this tour) twice by doing alternate attacks with Valverde and Quintana but they either do it having burned themselves out (stage 10, and TKS with Rodgers for 30 seconds on Stage 12) or after stages that have nt been ridden hard (Stage 12) and Sky have been able to cover it.

    They are riding with tactics, they are just not executing them properly.
    We're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
    - @ddraver
  • RichN95.
    RichN95. Posts: 27,241
    [url=http://www.bikeradar.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=19654623#p19654623]mididoctors[/url] wrote:

    that really is armstrong's legacy to us all thou isn't it?

    no one wants to get fooled again
    Maybe. People cheered on Armstrong and bought the wristbands. They got burnt. Now they say everyone's doping so they'll never be proved wrong.

    But I disagree. I don't think that the major critics now were ever Armstrong fans. They are no different than all the other contrarians on the internet. Going against the grain will always garner attention, especially if you get extreme - see for example Katie Hopkins.
    Twitter: @RichN95
  • talius
    talius Posts: 282
    [url=http://www.bikeradar.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=19654644#p19654644]ddraver[/url] wrote:
    [url=http://www.bikeradar.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=19654619#p19654619]mididoctors[/url] wrote:
    [url=http://www.bikeradar.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=19654594#p19654594]underlayunderlay[/url] wrote:

    In the case of Postal of course, we know for sure they were doping, so perhaps they provide a useful control for looking at Sky?

    Instead of "asking questions", try thinking of the answer yourself. Do you think that Team A using an effective tactic that Team B also used means that they are the same in every aspect of the sport. I would say no of course not. In the same way that me playing 4-4-2 with my local football team doesnt make me the same as Manchester United.

    Apply a bit of unemotional, unbiased thought to the things you watch or read.

    And when players who were pretty average in your local team, suddenly become better than Man Utd players, then perhaps one has to ask whether there's something in it?



    At the end of the day, comparisons don't mean anything, and all these arguments are dumb, dumb and dumb. Sky either dope or they don't. If they do then plus ca change - their PR / MO / whole demeanor is no different to what we've seen before. If they don't then they are the greatest clean athletes that have ever lived - P/Kg they are better than all other who were clean, and they've found a way to transform average (or at least average for pro cyclists - i.e not physiologically better than any other pro-cyclist) cyclists into world beaters.

    Ho humm
    Merckx EMX 5
    Ribble 7005 Audax / Campag Centaur

    RIP - Scott Speedster S10
  • Lanterne_Rogue
    Lanterne_Rogue Posts: 4,325
    [url=http://www.bikeradar.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=19654653#p19654653]RichN95[/url] wrote:
    [url=http://www.bikeradar.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=19654623#p19654623]mididoctors[/url] wrote:

    that really is armstrong's legacy to us all thou isn't it?

    no one wants to get fooled again
    Maybe. People cheered on Armstrong and bought the wristbands. They got burnt. Now they say everyone's doping so they'll never be proved wrong.

    But I disagree. I don't think that the major critics now were ever Armstrong fans. They are no different than all the other contrarians on the internet. Going against the grain will always garner attention, especially if you get extreme - see for example Katie Hopkins.

    Are they going against the grain though? There's a lot of them, and they're awfully noisy. Mr Limit's confusion about the moderate (consensus?) here may well have been genuine - perhaps screaming that Sky are doping is the new orthodoxy?
    Twitter: @canocola @thedreadships
  • RichN95.
    RichN95. Posts: 27,241
    [url=http://www.bikeradar.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=19654628#p19654628]Talius[/url] wrote:
    Rich, are you saying other teams don't have tactics? do their sponsors/DSs/Drs etc not have videos or access to the internet?
    No. The other teams have tactics. But they are conservative. A second place, a firth place. That will do. Hinault never rode like that. He threw caution to the wind.

    Look at the 2013 Tour. Was it stage 10 that Garmin blew everything up early on? Left Froome alone with 120k to go. If he hadn't worked out that only Movistar's moves were significant, he would have been toast.

    So why is no-one trying to replicate that situation? Teams are trying to play Sky at their own game. Probably because they have copied parts of Sky's strategy (training for a final climb), but not all of it (the peloton conditioning).
    Twitter: @RichN95
  • ddraver
    ddraver Posts: 26,661
    [url=http://www.bikeradar.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=19654657#p19654657]Talius[/url] wrote:
    [url=http://www.bikeradar.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=19654644#p19654644]ddraver[/url] wrote:
    [url=http://www.bikeradar.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=19654619#p19654619]mididoctors[/url] wrote:
    [url=http://www.bikeradar.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=19654594#p19654594]underlayunderlay[/url] wrote:

    In the case of Postal of course, we know for sure they were doping, so perhaps they provide a useful control for looking at Sky?

    Instead of "asking questions", try thinking of the answer yourself. Do you think that Team A using an effective tactic that Team B also used means that they are the same in every aspect of the sport. I would say no of course not. In the same way that me playing 4-4-2 with my local football team doesnt make me the same as Manchester United.

    Apply a bit of unemotional, unbiased thought to the things you watch or read.

    And when players who were pretty average in your local team, suddenly become better than Man Utd players, then perhaps one has to ask whether there's something in it?



    At the end of the day, comparisons don't mean anything

    Which is my point...
    If they don't then they are the greatest clean athletes that have ever lived - P/Kg they are better than all other who were clean, and they've found a way to transform average (or at least average for pro cyclists - i.e not physiologically better than any other pro-cyclist) cyclists into world beaters.

    The cure for Bilharzia was nt invented by Sky, I confess I don't know who came up with it though
    We're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
    - @ddraver
  • adr82
    adr82 Posts: 4,002
    [url=http://www.bikeradar.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=19654657#p19654657]Talius[/url] wrote:
    And when players who were pretty average in your local team, suddenly become better than Man Utd players, then perhaps one has to ask whether there's something in it?
    So you're just going to keep parroting this single point over and over again then?
  • RichN95.
    RichN95. Posts: 27,241
    [url=http://www.bikeradar.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=19654658#p19654658]underlayunderlay[/url] wrote:
    Are they going against the grain though? There's a lot of them, and they're awfully noisy. Mr Limit's confusion about the moderate (consensus?) here may well have been genuine - perhaps screaming that Sky are doping is the new orthodoxy?
    Don't confuse the likes of us, who post on internet forums and know who the likes of Vayer are, with the general sports fan.

    I like many sports (draw in the cricket, I fancy Day for the Open), but cycling is the only one I really feel I understand - despite never doing it. Hockey I've played for 30 years and what I know about the modern game you could write on a single piece of paper (it's changed so much)
    Twitter: @RichN95
  • Lanterne_Rogue
    Lanterne_Rogue Posts: 4,325
    [url=http://www.bikeradar.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=19654661#p19654661]RichN95[/url] wrote:
    Look at the 2013 Tour. Was it stage 10 that Garmin blew everything up early on? Left Froome alone with 120k to go. If he hadn't worked out that only Movistar's moves were significant, he would have been toast.

    The thing about Garmin with that stage (Nine? Dan Martin?) - at least in my unreliable memory - was that they were happy to blow up as many riders as it took to blow the race apart, on the basis that it gave them a chance of at least having one rider contest the finish and gain a stage win. You can't really do that in an attempt to spring your one GC candidate up the rankings, because he might be the one to blow.

    In the situation some GC candidates are in now, of course, it might be worth trying - but it'll need an alliance and people happy to gamble coming nowhere instead of second or third.
    Twitter: @canocola @thedreadships
  • disgruntledgoat
    disgruntledgoat Posts: 8,957
    [url=http://www.bikeradar.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=19654657#p19654657]Talius[/url] wrote:
    [url=http://www.bikeradar.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=19654644#p19654644]ddraver[/url] wrote:
    [url=http://www.bikeradar.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=19654619#p19654619]mididoctors[/url] wrote:
    [url=http://www.bikeradar.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=19654594#p19654594]underlayunderlay[/url] wrote:

    In the case of Postal of course, we know for sure they were doping, so perhaps they provide a useful control for looking at Sky?

    Instead of "asking questions", try thinking of the answer yourself. Do you think that Team A using an effective tactic that Team B also used means that they are the same in every aspect of the sport. I would say no of course not. In the same way that me playing 4-4-2 with my local football team doesnt make me the same as Manchester United.

    Apply a bit of unemotional, unbiased thought to the things you watch or read.

    And when players who were pretty average in your local team, suddenly become better than Man Utd players, then perhaps one has to ask whether there's something in it?



    At the end of the day, comparisons don't mean anything, and all these arguments are dumb, dumb and dumb. Sky either dope or they don't. If they do then plus ca change - their PR / MO / whole demeanor is no different to what we've seen before. If they don't then they are the greatest clean athletes that have ever lived - P/Kg they are better than all other who were clean, and they've found a way to transform average (or at least average for pro cyclists - i.e not physiologically better than any other pro-cyclist) cyclists into world beaters.

    Ho humm

    I assume by p/kg you mean power per kilogram. YOu have no way of knowing who was worse, as good or better for any number of reasons.

    1. There were about 100 years of cycling before the power meter was invented. Merckx, Hinault, Coppi, Anquetil etc etc et chuffin cetera never used one. Many riders never used one for racing until the last 5 years.

    2. You aren't defining your terms. What do you mean by watts per kilo. Over how long? On what gradient? At what cadence? At what point in a race or stage? You may as well say I did 550w for 1 minute therefore I'm better than Wiggins because he only does 450 for 1 hour.

    3. You are taking your perception of athletes as replacement level (average) and imposing it on Sky. Let's look at this years Tour team. Luke Rowe and Ian Stannard were up there in all the spring races they were fit for this year. Stannard has ridden 3 good tours already in his career, he was good enough ot get his 1st pro contract in a Belgian squad not noted for hiring foreigners. Geraint THomas has 2 olympic gold medals, pedigree as a grand tour domestique, is an excellent 1 week stage racer in his own right and won the hardest non-monument race in Belgium this spring from a 3 man breakaway. Richie Porte was the best young rider in his 1st 3 week race and the outstanding stage race rider of the 1st half of this seaosn. Konig hasn't finished outside the top 10 of any GT he's started and half of those were for Netapp. Nicolas Roche has finished well on the Tour of r AG2R...

    Now, are you going to engage with anyone elses points or just call them biased and say "yeah but"?

    EDIT: If you want to see some seriously crazy power numbers, take a trip to SRM's factory in Julich in Northern Germany. THey have side by side comparison from Armstong and Ulrich on 2003 Alpe D'Huez for all metrics on the wall and some other beauts from Basso, Hamilton, Shcleck and Contador. At least you'll know those came off an actual power meter...
    "In many ways, my story was that of a raging, Christ-like figure who hauled himself off the cross, looked up at the Romans with blood in his eyes and said 'My turn, sock cookers'"

    @gietvangent
  • talius
    talius Posts: 282
    Rich, you are falling into DW's "all other teams are amateurish" camp - it's not true, and it's bizarre to even think it.

    Yes Sky are rich. That doesn't help the "sky are clean" argument - put a lot of money into something, and you expect a lot out - whatever the cost... and the Murdoch's aren't closely associated with scrupples. And nor are their employees, if you are thinking of saying Sir DB is the boss...

    What I don't really understand - which was my original point - is why you all so desperately want the Sky dream to be true? Why treat them any differently from any other pro cycling team? And I've read your posts - I respect them all in the proper cycling-focused banter in the spring classics etc.

    Yes Sky have the legacy of Wiggins winning the tour, and that was amazing - I was in Paris to watch him in yellow lead out Cav, in the WC jersey, to the stage win - and it was easily the best sporting day I've ever had, by a mile, and it still makes the hairs on my neck stand on end to think about it. Truly amazing - biased, yes, from watching cycling from the late 80s onwards and it always being a non UK sport. But at the end of the day Sky are just another team, all other teams have been proven to dope, and there is nothing actually special about the Brits even if we'd like to think there is.

    So, to me, Froome blasting all and sundry out of the way with the most powerful performances, and GT suddenly becoming a climber (and it is suddenly - there's a big difference between doing ok in the hills, and dominating a mountain stage) is ugly to watch, and doesn't do cycling any favours. And the PR, the spin, the UK media love, and the overall smell of the situation and the way people are not able to discuss it openly, is not good. Not good at all.
    Merckx EMX 5
    Ribble 7005 Audax / Campag Centaur

    RIP - Scott Speedster S10

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