Paolini done for cocaine

1457910

Comments

  • pinno
    pinno Posts: 51,320
    The sane are still here. I think.

    I was a very bad boy in my younger days but almost T total and non-smoking (of anything) now. I wonder if I might be allowed some strangely shifting moral endorsement or am I tarred with the same brush for life? Only a rhetorical question.

    @Rick - it has been a great thread so far, some interesting view points. If you no longer feel that it is staying on topic sufficiently, don't lock it - stick it in Cake Stop. No one has been overly insulting or out of hand. There wasn't that much to say about Paolini in the first instance was there?

    Back off topic: Shortie has escaped from prison. I wonder if his escape has anything to do with Paolini's recent faux pas? Does the international price of Charlie go up or down in these circumstances?
    seanoconn - gruagach craic!
  • alihisgreat
    alihisgreat Posts: 3,872
    But my question was about guys keeping within the passport thresholds and avoiding detection by 'micro-dosing' & mini-transfusing. Do these guys need to shoot-up during the race to maintain levels? Would stopping result in a 'Dear JTL' letter?
    From my limited understanding of the biological passport, it's altogether more complex than that and constantly microdosing and/or transfusing wouldn't necessarily make the rider's numbers appear OK. But I'm sure someone else will be able to provide a more knowledgeable answer - if all the moral discussion hasn't driven the sane off this thread.

    Over a three week GT your blood values would change naturally, hence using a blood bag to bring them back up, so I suppose microdosing/transfusions could make someone suspicious if their blood values don't become that much worse between the start and the end of the three weeks.

    But then you'd presumably need a high sample frequency to be able to plot that change... and I would assume they're not taking blood samples every few days during a grand tour.
  • Pokerface
    Pokerface Posts: 7,960
    But my question was about guys keeping within the passport thresholds and avoiding detection by 'micro-dosing' & mini-transfusing. Do these guys need to shoot-up during the race to maintain levels? Would stopping result in a 'Dear JTL' letter?
    From my limited understanding of the biological passport, it's altogether more complex than that and constantly microdosing and/or transfusing wouldn't necessarily make the rider's numbers appear OK. But I'm sure someone else will be able to provide a more knowledgeable answer - if all the moral discussion hasn't driven the sane off this thread.

    Over a three week GT your blood values would change naturally, hence using a blood bag to bring them back up, so I suppose microdosing/transfusions could make someone suspicious if their blood values don't become that much worse between the start and the end of the three weeks.

    But then you'd presumably need a high sample frequency to be able to plot that change... and I would assume they're not taking blood samples every few days during a grand tour.

    Wasn't this one of the key points in the Kreuzinger case? That his values actually improved over a 3-week GT? Or didn't drop off naturally?
  • frenchfighter
    frenchfighter Posts: 30,642
    No, I mean empathy: the ability to understand the feelings of other people, even if they happen to be very different from your own. You personally do not and cannot know why any random individual has chosen to use drugs, yet you're seemingly willing to pronounce that anyone who does is some sort of lesser person in your eyes because their actions happen not to mesh with your own worldview. Instead of considering the challenges a person might have had to deal with in their past or the stresses and pressures they're facing in their current life or the things going on inside their head, you just issue a blanket statement that they're all unworthy of comparison with someone like you. You may want to think about this quote for a while:
    Be kind, for everyone you meet is fighting a hard battle

    No idea what your voting habits have to do with anything.

    You refer to the 'do not judge people as you know not what path they have trod' train of thought; something I myself subscribe to and often use to check myself before passing judgement. You can exclude 'people using drugs to escape the mental anguish of abuse etc' if you will (even if this is by far a terrible response to the issue at hand from their part), but I would posit that the majority of people using drugs are not doing so for those reasons. I am sure you understand the terms with which generalisations are applied and you can use those same aspects here. Bear in mind also that we are disussing on a forum and not in a debating society.
    How about crumbling to rational discourse, logical argument and people that actually know what they're talking about? No, you don't do that either.

    With one sweep of the brush you denigrate someone else's views, immediately trying to claim supremacy of opinion. I am not impressed.
    Do you have something against the weak and insecure? How Nietzschean.

    Related to character. I have a particular ability to empathize and support the outcast and weak person. I would be amoung the first to stand by their shoulder and I would not be the one that chooses not to as it is not the socially acceptable thing.
    It's also easy to turn a blind-eye to the ills caused by the corporate greed of the financial sector, when you're un-selfishly raking it in.

    You judge me without knowing anything. You can also turn your beady eye at the greed of those who borrow on credit to buy things they cannot afford. That is not how I was brought up and not what I do, but maybe this is something you consider ok as it ties in with the 'new world freedoms, equality and transitory morals' that you are harping on about.
    The failed war on drugs has become a literal war in many countries. These wars aren't caused by drugs, they're caused by their prohibition. Your stance turns a blind eye to the immeasurable harm done by the policies you support.

    I don't wish to open up this can of worms but maybe in your vast and superior knowledge you can give me some examples so I can educate myself and bask in your intellect.
    As for paying my own hospital bill, I pay over half my (pretty decent) wages in tax without complaint, donate to charity, occasionaly invest some time in political activism and have around six months full time voluntary conservation work under my belt, plus numerous other things I've done to rip the moral fabric of society asunder (e.g. a few years of 15hr a week minimum training my son's football team), I think I'm in credit when it comes to a hospital bed.

    Congratulations. I shan't judge the above or rattle off my own examples as that isn't particularly classy but maybe you tell me if the vast majority of drug users are like you?
    Contador is the Greatest
  • mfin
    mfin Posts: 6,729
    Congratulations. I shan't judge the above or rattle off my own examples as that isn't particularly classy but maybe you tell me if the vast majority of drug users are like you?

    Drug users span absolutely every walk of life and every type of personality.

    In cycling having the odd one pop-up here and there is entirely expected just as it would be if you took any random bunch of people if you walked out of your front door.

    Has anyone seen any evidence of cocaine being used as a ped? I can't remember seeing any.

    Drug use for performance enhancement is more disgusting than recreational drug use could ever be. Using drugs to cheat in sport is morally wrong to most people, recreational drug use by others is only morally wrong to a select few with a certain snotty outlook.
  • gweeds
    gweeds Posts: 2,564

    Related to character. I have a particular ability to empathize and support the outcast and weak person. I would be amoung the first to stand by their shoulder and I would not be the one that chooses not to as it is not the socially acceptable thing.
    I am not against gay people, I just dont like its deliberately overt display....

    Mmmmm.
    Napoleon, don't be jealous that I've been chatting online with babes all day. Besides, we both know that I'm training to be a cage fighter.
  • No_Ta_Doctor
    No_Ta_Doctor Posts: 13,308
    Congratulations. I shan't judge the above or rattle off my own examples as that isn't particularly classy but maybe you tell me if the vast majority of drug users are like you?

    I am better looking, fitter, more intelligent, richer, have a better job, have better morals and principles, am happier and generally have a much better life than the average person and drugs have not helped me achieve any of that.

    So you druggies (recreational or addicts) can take your opinions and suck on them until your dentures fall out and you lose what renmnats of mental ability you have left.

    I won't go point to point with you, it's pointless. But the list of people I know personally that do or have done drugs includes teachers, nurses, doctors, managers, people that work with disadvantaged kids, programmers, musicians, authors, conservationists, scientists, university professors - just normal people from all walks of life. Some are rich, others aren't. Some of them even like to ride the cols. For your benefit I'm not including drinkers. Please take your blinkers off and assess your prejudices.

    Apologies Rick, I'll leave it now.
    Warning No formatter is installed for the format
  • dinyull
    dinyull Posts: 2,979
    Was I the only one to see Matt Rendell's tweet that Cocaine is/can be used as a masking agent?

    Although this opens another question (for me at least) as to why would you mask something with a drug that will be picked up?
  • frenchfighter
    frenchfighter Posts: 30,642
    I won't go point to point with you, it's pointless. But the list of people I know personally that do or have done drugs includes teachers, nurses, doctors, managers, people that work with disadvantaged kids, programmers, musicians, authors, conservationists, scientists, university professors - just normal people from all walks of life. Some are rich, others aren't. Some of them even like to ride the cols. For your benefit I'm not including drinkers. Please take your blinkers off and assess your prejudices.

    Wow, that is a ton of dopers you associate with.

    For the rest, I am glad you understand the futility of trying to continue to defend your corner. I have nothing further to discuss with you on this matter.
    Contador is the Greatest
  • adr82
    adr82 Posts: 4,002
    You refer to the 'do not judge people as you know not what path they have trod' train of thought; something I myself subscribe to and often use to check myself before passing judgement.
    Talk about missing the point... do you even notice what you're saying? The key idea here is "Do not judge", full stop, end of story. It's not "Do not judge, unless you think you're qualified to do so or the circumstances satisfy some conditions you've made up, in which case feel free to judge away!".
    You can exclude 'people using drugs to escape the mental anguish of abuse etc' if you will (even if this is by far a terrible response to the issue at hand from their part), but I would posit that the majority of people using drugs are not doing so for those reasons. I am sure you understand the terms with which generalisations are applied and you can use those same aspects here. Bear in mind also that we are disussing on a forum and not in a debating society.
    I'm not going to argue anything about abuse victims. I'm not even going to argue that the majority of drug users are doing it for other reasons. I'm simply pointing out that judging those people as harshly as you do based on nothing more than your opinions about drug use is wrong. You don't know anything about these people other than the simple fact they use drugs. How is that any better than judging people based on any aspect of their appearance, or income, or accent? What else makes you think someone is worth less than you as a person? Genuinely curious.
  • bobmcstuff
    bobmcstuff Posts: 11,196
    I assume everyone can see the obvious hypocrisy of FF denigrating all drug users when his hero has been convicted and served a ban for using drugs (I'm sure he's written some justification for that somewhere, but I've not seen it. Presumably he believes the dodgy steak excuse :lol: ).
  • alihisgreat
    alihisgreat Posts: 3,872
    Over a three week GT your blood values would change naturally, hence using a blood bag to bring them back up, so I suppose microdosing/transfusions could make someone suspicious if their blood values don't become that much worse between the start and the end of the three weeks.

    But then you'd presumably need a high sample frequency to be able to plot that change... and I would assume they're not taking blood samples every few days during a grand tour.

    Wasn't this one of the key points in the Kreuzinger case? That his values actually improved over a 3-week GT? Or didn't drop off naturally?

    I'm not familiar with the case, but I guess it would be suspicious. The tricky bit would be deciding what a 'normal' and 'abnormal' drop off would be... you'd presumably need to take into account the amount of effort they'd put in over the three weeks as well as lots of other factors.
  • mm1
    mm1 Posts: 1,063
    Shortly after Pantani's death a friend's wife (a physio, who at one time worked with an F1 team) wrote her Masters about the relationship between PEDs and "recreational" drug use. Can't remember all of her points, but apart from the obvious one about being supplied by the same questionable characters, many PEDs have a "kick" getting used to which may predispose users to experiment with other drugs. From memory, Willy Voet alludes to this when he talks about the timing of steroid injections. Of course there's Pot Belge and those parties in Austin...
  • frenchfighter
    frenchfighter Posts: 30,642
    You refer to the 'do not judge people as you know not what path they have trod' train of thought; something I myself subscribe to and often use to check myself before passing judgement.
    Talk about missing the point... do you even notice what you're saying? The key idea here is "Do not judge", full stop, end of story. It's not "Do not judge, unless you think you're qualified to do so or the circumstances satisfy some conditions you've made up, in which case feel free to judge away!".

    You misunderstand. I am saying the the natural reaction might be to pass judgement then before giving voice to it then many times I check myself and refrain due to thinking about the mentioned train of thought.
    Contador is the Greatest
  • mfin
    mfin Posts: 6,729
    Ok, cocaine as a masking agent, any reported evidence of this or is this just something dreampt up because of all the amateur 'covering all bases logic' people do? On face value I would have thought this is all it is?
  • adr82
    adr82 Posts: 4,002
    You refer to the 'do not judge people as you know not what path they have trod' train of thought; something I myself subscribe to and often use to check myself before passing judgement.
    Talk about missing the point... do you even notice what you're saying? The key idea here is "Do not judge", full stop, end of story. It's not "Do not judge, unless you think you're qualified to do so or the circumstances satisfy some conditions you've made up, in which case feel free to judge away!".

    You misunderstand. I am saying the the natural reaction might be to pass judgement then before giving voice to it then many times I check myself and refrain due to thinking about the mentioned train of thought.
    You refrain from judging, or refrain from voicing your judgement? There's a difference.

    I'm still finding it hard to square your claims to be non-judgemental with statements like:
    That the use of drugs by an individual lowers my estimation of them is another aspect entirely.
    or
    It's easy to turn the blind eye to the ills it causes the World; much like the majority of of our immoral society do on many matters. The route of the weak, insecure and selfish.

    And make sure you pay your own f*cking bill when you end up in the Maudsley.
    The person who made those statements doesn't seem to be following that train of thought at all.

    (apologies to everyone wanting to talk about cocaine instead)
  • dinyull
    dinyull Posts: 2,979
    edited July 2015
    @mrendell Jul 10
    Cocaine does not give AAFs OOC, and is used as a masking agent, apparently.

    OOC - out of competition.

    edit - AAF - adverse analytical finding.
  • frenchfighter
    frenchfighter Posts: 30,642
    Is this really so important to you adr? It really is no longer a particularly rewarding debate right now and I don't feel positively about wasting anymore of my time trying to justify myself to you while you pick away.
    Contador is the Greatest
  • alihisgreat
    alihisgreat Posts: 3,872
    @mrendell Jul 10
    Cocaine does not give AAFs OOC, and is used as a masking agent, apparently.

    OOC - out of competition.

    edit - AAF - adverse analytical finding.

    I'm not sure that the anti-doping authorities would allow coke in out of competition tests if its a masking agent?
  • adr82
    adr82 Posts: 4,002
    Is this really so important to you adr? It really is no longer a particularly rewarding debate right now and I don't feel positively about wasting anymore of my time trying to justify myself to you while you pick away.
    Important to me?? How many times did you post your opinions in the last several pages again? But I don't mind ending things here, I'd much rather get back to cycling chat.
  • Anonymous
    Anonymous Posts: 79,667
    It's also easy to turn a blind-eye to the ills caused by the corporate greed of the financial sector, when you're un-selfishly raking it in.

    You judge me without knowing anything. You can also turn your beady eye at the greed of those who borrow on credit to buy things they cannot afford. That is not how I was brought up and not what I do, but maybe this is something you consider ok as it ties in with the 'new world freedoms, equality and transitory morals' that you are harping on about.
    The failed war on drugs has become a literal war in many countries. These wars aren't caused by drugs, they're caused by their prohibition. Your stance turns a blind eye to the immeasurable harm done by the policies you support.

    I don't wish to open up this can of worms but maybe in your vast and superior knowledge you can give me some examples so I can educate myself and bask in your intellect./quote]

    A city boy lecturing on financial morales is superb.

    Look at the legalisation of marijuana in America, increase in tax revenue and a drop in crime.
  • joelsim
    joelsim Posts: 7,552
    Congratulations. I shan't judge the above or rattle off my own examples as that isn't particularly classy but maybe you tell me if the vast majority of drug users are like you?

    Drug users span absolutely every walk of life and every type of personality.

    In cycling having the odd one pop-up here and there is entirely expected just as it would be if you took any random bunch of people if you walked out of your front door.

    Has anyone seen any evidence of cocaine being used as a ped? I can't remember seeing any.

    Drug use for performance enhancement is more disgusting than recreational drug use could ever be. Using drugs to cheat in sport is morally wrong to most people, recreational drug use by others is only morally wrong to a select few with a certain snotty outlook.

    You'd be able to tell if someone was using charlie during the race as they'd just be talking to every rider really quickly.
  • andrewjoseph
    andrewjoseph Posts: 2,165
    i'd think riders would prefer to be busted for recreational drugs than peds. it can be explained away easier, saves some professional integrity and no accusations of cheating.

    much the same as blaming dodgy steak.
    --
    Burls Ti Tourer for Tarmac, Saracen aluminium full suss for trails
  • joelsim
    joelsim Posts: 7,552
    i'd think riders would prefer to be busted for recreational drugs than peds. it can be explained away easier, saves some professional integrity and no accusations of cheating.

    much the same as blaming dodgy steak.

    I wonder what will happen with Paolini, and whether there is any plasticiser in his blood. Will we ever know?
  • thegibdog
    thegibdog Posts: 2,106
    Looks like this incident has revealed more about the character of some forum members than it has about Paolini.
  • pinno
    pinno Posts: 51,320
    Roll on stage 10. :roll:
    seanoconn - gruagach craic!
  • Ben6899
    Ben6899 Posts: 9,686
    Gloss over the problems in one sweeping statement.

    There is no positive justification for drugs however hard you try.

    Other people doing drugs affects me, my country and this World. Massively.

    Sit down and think deeply what problems would go away if you removed drugs from this World. It is quite mind blowingly extensive.

    What do you do for a living, FF?
    Ben

    Bikes: Donhou DSS4 Custom | Condor Italia RC | Gios Megalite | Dolan Preffisio | Giant Bowery '76
    Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/ben_h_ppcc/
    Flickr: https://www.flickr.com/photos/143173475@N05/
  • pinno
    pinno Posts: 51,320
    Gloss over the problems in one sweeping statement.

    There is no positive justification for drugs however hard you try.

    Other people doing drugs affects me, my country and this World. Massively.

    Sit down and think deeply what problems would go away if you removed drugs from this World. It is quite mind blowingly extensive.

    Think what legalising them would do. What about paying the Taliban for their Opium instead of compelling those peoples to trying to grow crops that fail in such arid conditions? Oh yeah, "burn this cash crop you heathen Muslim peasant", how dare you sell your cash crop as heroin to us in the West that has the problem. "Oh no infidel, this is my living and your problem" [picks up gun and defends himself, his family and his livelyhood].


    How about "Sell us the Opium and whilst you're at it, $35 for the Kalashnikov Abdullah?" Then we could wean Heroin addicts off with Medicinal Morphine of which there is a shortage of and in the process, make friends of the enemies.
    Methadone does not work. I work with former drug addicts. In France, heroin addicts are off heroin in 3 weeks with Morphine. In the UK, addicts can be on Methadone for years. It costs in Scotland £47k per year per person on methadone and pharmacies are paid £110k per year to dispense the bloody stuff.
    Heroin is only addictive because of what it is cut with. Marijuana is now plastered with chemicals (Skunk) because this 'war on drugs' makes the smuggling/growing of ordinary marijuana far less profitable.
    Cut the link with organised crime, people trafficking, gun running, the exploitation of women in the sex trade, poaching of animals including the Rhino, Tiger and the Elephant - it's all interlinked.
    Dealers sell the latest drug because of profit levels. Make a drug that is instantly addictive and you have a sure fire captive market. Crack Cocaine is decimating lives in the US. Yet to make the jump across the pond as yet (for some inexplicable reason) but it is most likely to happen so long as we make everything illegal and it stays underground and out of our control. Mexico and primarily Mexico city is corrupt to the core with violence and kidnappings rife. All because of the US market for drugs and it is intrinsically linked with human trafficking/the exodus across the border.
    One last thing. Paramedics used to be able to treat drug abuse OD's. Now, they have no idea because as soon as one substance is made illegal, the drug makers come up with a slight chemical formula change for the next legal high and they don't know what they are dealing with.
    seanoconn - gruagach craic!
  • Anonymous
    Anonymous Posts: 79,667

    There is no positive justification for drugs however hard you try.

    .

    The $53 million in tax raised by marijuana is a pretty good one.
  • Pokerface
    Pokerface Posts: 7,960
    Gloss over the problems in one sweeping statement.

    There is no positive justification for drugs however hard you try.

    Other people doing drugs affects me, my country and this World. Massively.

    Sit down and think deeply what problems would go away if you removed drugs from this World. It is quite mind blowingly extensive.

    I agree with the sentiment. The same could be said for a myriad of other things, like smoking, alcohol, religion, air pollution, armies, chemicals in food, etc, etc.