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finchy

Stevo 666 wrote:

I made a true statement about revenues declining. Its not dificult to maintain production volumes by slashing prices but it is still bad business. Mamba was tryig tosay it was all rosy in the German garden and I called him out on that, rightly so.

So when global metal prices collapse, what are they meant to do? Close all the factories, lose all the skills and knowledge and then when prices rebound be unable to take advantage? Do you think that's good business?

You're also cherry picking your data here. 2011 was a particularly strong year for the industry. 2015 was still above the long-term average.

Stevo 666 wrote:

Now maybe lets compare UK and German financial services industries? Yep, poor Germany

I'm sure they'll survive somehow.

Stevo 666 wrote:

Minutes after denying you are out to knock the UK, here you go again....

My apologies for not burying my head in the sand.

Stevo_666

And just to show some other stats on steel production volumes:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_steel_production
Between 1980 and 2014, UK steel production volume was up approx 10%. Over the same period, Germany volumes declined by around 20%.

So as I said before, leftiebollox.

finchy

Stevo. Take a statistics course. Please. It's making my head hurt.

pinno

'Leftie bollox' is anything that contradicts Stevo, even when it isn't.

finchy

Maybe if we campaigned to have the abuse of statistics outlawed we could get Stevo sent down? I think there's enough material in this thread for a life sentence.

pblakeney

finchy wrote:

So when global metal prices collapse, what are they meant to do? Close all the factories, lose all the skills and knowledge and then when prices rebound be unable to take advantage? Do you think that's good business?

It's the British way old chap.
Cup of tea?

pblakeney

finchy wrote:

Maybe if we campaigned to have the abuse of statistics outlawed we could get Stevo sent down? I think there's enough material in this thread for a life sentence.

That's accountancy training for you. Skewing figures.

rick_chasey

Stevo - what have you been smoking?

Stevo_666

finchy wrote:

Stevo. Take a statistics course. Please. It's making my head hurt.

Finchy, you came into this with a nitpicking response about volumes vs values and then chose some internet data that supported your case about volumes. I simply went and chose data from the internet to show another view on volumes. If you don't like those facts, tough.

Stevo_666

Rick Chasey wrote:

Stevo - what have you been smoking?

Read my original point Rick.

pblakeney

Never mind. As long as "we are all in this together".
Oh!
http://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/mo ... &ocid=iehp

mamba80

Stevo 666 wrote:

finchy wrote:

Stevo. Take a statistics course. Please. It's making my head hurt.

Finchy, you came into this with a nitpicking response about volumes vs values and then chose some internet data that supported your case about volumes. I simply went and chose data from the internet to show another view on volumes. If you don't like those facts, tough.

steve0 i pointed out german steel PRODUCTION not PROFIT! Germany takes the long view, supporting industries during bad times, investment etc etc We dont, we close factories sell off and fail to invest in blue collar skills, little manufacturing and very low productivity.
of course there will be restructuring in steel, but to do what you want and let the industry fail completely? even the government seems to be against that option.... :shock:

and you slam the chinese as a communist state and "what do you expect?" but you want us to put all our eggs in their basket? is that wise? why are so few countries willing to do this?

Anyhow, it seems that no matter how rich you are, some people just want more....for themselves.

ballysmate

PBlakeney wrote:

Never mind. As long as "we are all in this together".
Oh!
http://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/mo ... &ocid=iehp

Anything illegal?

ballysmate

mamba80 wrote:

No, its that i take a longer term view, what if churchill and hitler both had nuc's and used them after dunkirk? non of us would be here and humanity would have ended in 1940.
i dont think any threat is worth destroying the world for and in anycase, we d never use them without US permission, by which time our little stock pile would nt matter.

but it would be ironic though, UK subs built with chinese steel going to war against the chinese :shock:

Any how, answer the points on steel Bally instead of a swerve ball

I know it's way off topic :roll: . but hey.
Did you know that the Germans had discovered nerve agents before the outbreak of the war? They chose not to use them because they erroneously believed the Allies possessed the same capability. That's right, even a madman like Hitler was deterred by the thought of MAD.

pblakeney

Ballysmate wrote:

PBlakeney wrote:

Never mind. As long as "we are all in this together".
Oh!
http://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/mo ... &ocid=iehp

Anything illegal?

Possibly not. Possibly because those who set the rules are the ones playing the game.
What would happen to the UK economy if everyone moved their money offshore? Why do it on the quiet?

ballysmate

RICH FOLK MAXIMISE THEIR RETURNS BY LEGAL MEANS

Loses its impact somewhat as a headline doesn't it?

rick_chasey

Ballysmate wrote:

PBlakeney wrote:

Never mind. As long as "we are all in this together".
Oh!
http://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/mo ... &ocid=iehp

Anything illegal?

Yeah quite a lot. Dummy loans, PEP manipulation etc.

Stevo_666

mamba80 wrote:

Stevo 666 wrote:

finchy wrote:

Stevo. Take a statistics course. Please. It's making my head hurt.

Finchy, you came into this with a nitpicking response about volumes vs values and then chose some internet data that supported your case about volumes. I simply went and chose data from the internet to show another view on volumes. If you don't like those facts, tough.

steve0 i pointed out german steel PRODUCTION not PROFIT! Germany takes the long view, supporting industries during bad times, investment etc etc We dont, we close factories sell off and fail to invest in blue collar skills, little manufacturing and very low productivity.
of course there will be restructuring in steel, but to do what you want and let the industry fail completely? even the government seems to be against that option.... :shock:

and you slam the chinese as a communist state and "what do you expect?" but you want us to put all our eggs in their basket? is that wise? why are so few countries willing to do this?

Anyhow, it seems that no matter how rich you are, some people just want more....for themselves.

Where did I say put all our eggs in one basket? Another mamba illusion?

It is not Germany taking the view, it is companies in Germany - allegedly. As with many on this thread you use the socialist 'we' too often. The German govt is constrained from supporting these industries (as we are) by EU anti state aid rules. so what exactly is the support being given by the state in Germany?

If you read the previous link to the Tata statement they see no long term prospect. Also worth noting this is an Indian owned multi-national making decisions about its own future, before you get on your 'UK is doing it wrong' high horse along with a few others on this thread.

If German companies are putting production first then why have they slashed jobs in the steel industry recently?

Stevo_666

Ballysmate wrote:

RICH FOLK MAXIMISE THEIR RETURNS BY LEGAL MEANS

Loses its impact somewhat as a headline doesn't it?

I'd just like to thank Blakey for his valuable contribution to this debate

pblakeney

Stevo 666 wrote:

Ballysmate wrote:

RICH FOLK MAXIMISE THEIR RETURNS BY LEGAL MEANS

Loses its impact somewhat as a headline doesn't it?

I'd just like to thank Blakey for his valuable contribution to this debate

Sticking head in sand to avoid the point of the issue as usual.
Our illustious leader told us that we are all in this together. Meanwhile, the rich are avoiding being in it at all.
It is a perception that will tell come the election.

rick_chasey

http://waitingfortax.com/2016/04/04/som ... ma-papers/

rick_chasey

That's the question. Plenty of places to put it, so why Panama?

It's a faff to put money there for lots of reasons, but its main advantage is particularly high levels of opacity and secrecy. So you're going out of your way to put money in a region where it's opaque and secret.

This is a profile on the company that got leaked in 2014: http://www.vice.com/read/evil-llc-0000524-v21n12

orraloon

"We don't pay taxes. Only the little people pay taxes". True then, true now.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leona_Helmsley

mamba80

Ballysmate wrote:

RICH FOLK MAXIMISE THEIR RETURNS BY LEGAL MEANS

Loses its impact somewhat as a headline doesn't it?

how are they maximising their returns? they are avoiding paying taxes, on income etc.

the rich and powerful make and more importantly fund the law & enforcement of tax evasion, its hardly a surprise that as we are Governed (and this is in any state and or any political persuasion) by the rich and powerful, these laws are either not made or not enforced.

this is a report on the Panamanian connection from 2012, 4 years ago...... what was done about it? SFA.

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/201 ... tax-havens

it matters not whether it was illegal, what if we could all do what these people and companies do? what academy would Steve0 send his kid too? (though i thought you once said it was a Grammar) or hospital could you go too?

rick_chasey

So there's some increasing research suggesting that Eurodollars, whose seizure played a central role in the GFC, may have been heavily used by those seeking privacy and tax efficiency reasons. If that link is more than incidental, it could be that the taxpayers were actually indirectly bailing out the very people who sought to avoid paying tax...

Stevo_666

mamba80 wrote:

Ballysmate wrote:

RICH FOLK MAXIMISE THEIR RETURNS BY LEGAL MEANS

Loses its impact somewhat as a headline doesn't it?

how are they maximising their returns? they are avoiding paying taxes, on income etc.

the rich and powerful make and more importantly fund the law & enforcement of tax evasion, its hardly a surprise that as we are Governed (and this is in any state and or any political persuasion) by the rich and powerful, these laws are either not made or not enforced.

this is a report on the Panamanian connection from 2012, 4 years ago...... what was done about it? SFA.

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/201 ... tax-havens

it matters not whether it was illegal, what if we could all do what these people and companies do? what academy would Steve0 send his kid too? (though i thought you once said it was a Grammar) or hospital could you go too?

Yawn - knee jerk leftie reaction which tries to use this disclosure of a relatively small number of UK tax payers to tar 'the rich' (presumably anyone doing better than you) with the same brush.

Once again, take a look at the overall facts:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/personalfinance/tax/11411790/Britains-highest-earners-pay-a-quarter-of-nations-income-tax.html
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/personalfinance/tax/11233686/How-top-3000-earners-pay-more-tax-than-bottom-9-million.html
http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/news/article-2107031/UK-Budget-2012-Top-1-earners-contribute-income-tax.html

As someone who works in tax for a living, your statement that the laws 'are neither made nor enforced' is quite simply a load of crap. I could give dozens of technical examples but the numbers above speak for themselves.

mamba80

I said "the rich and powerful make and more importantly fund the law & enforcement of tax evasion, its hardly a surprise that as we are Governed (and this is in any state and or any political persuasion) by the rich and powerful, these laws are either not made or not enforced"

not that it was particular to this Government or the UK, though we do have interests in BVI, Cayman Is etc etc

International tax avoidance could, at the very least be reduced if countries really wanted to but they dont.

i dont give a 4x how much very rich people pay, its not exactly rocket science that the wealthy pay more tax than a care worker.

rick_chasey

In fairness Stevo, you have no idea if these people are pilfering their money in tax havens legally or not.

Nor can you.

finchy

Stevo 666 wrote:

finchy wrote:

Stevo. Take a statistics course. Please. It's making my head hurt.

Finchy, you came into this with a nitpicking response about volumes vs values and then chose some internet data that supported your case about volumes. I simply went and chose data from the internet to show another view on volumes. If you don't like those facts, tough.

I can't believe this. Let's run through the chronology.

Mamba80 said that the Germans had maintained levels of steel production. This is factually correct.
You accused mamba80 of speaking "leftiebollox".
I point out that mamba80 was correct, choosing the data to which mamba80 was clearly referring in his post.
You then accuse me of nitpicking.

If you'd said "OK, production is high but revenues are down", then that's one thing, but to accuse other people of speaking bollox when they're correct and then accuse others of nitpicking when you get picked up on it makes you look like the sort of person who bangs his head against the wall in anger whenever he gets his worldview contradicted.

Stevo_666

mamba80 wrote:

I said "the rich and powerful make and more importantly fund the law & enforcement of tax evasion, its hardly a surprise that as we are Governed (and this is in any state and or any political persuasion) by the rich and powerful, these laws are either not made or not enforced"

not that it was particular to this Government or the UK, though we do have interests in BVI, Cayman Is etc etc

International tax avoidance could, at the very least be reduced if countries really wanted to but they dont.

i dont give a 4x how much very rich people pay, its not exactly rocket science that the wealthy pay more tax than a care worker.

You should care how much they pay as significant part of this countrys tax revenues. They are also the people who have most control over the amount and timing of the tax they pay, so modt likely to take action to mitigate tax rises - as when Labour raisedtop top rate to 50% which yielded sweet FA in extra tax.

As for your point that countries dont want to stop this, again rubbish. The UK has a comprehensive set of controled foreign company legislation as do most countries that prevent tax haven based tax avoidance. You can operate in tax havens for good commercial reasons and there is no issue if you make the required disclosures.

What HMRC will most likely be interested in with this leak is information is those who are not declaring what they have in these places - tax evasion and illegal.