Join the Labour Party and save your country!

pinno

mamba80 wrote:

Stevo 666 wrote:

steve0.....celebrate.

i d recommend you go to Hongkong and buy a few books on democracy, you might end up in a longer stay than intended lol!

That one will go wooosh over his head.

pinno

Stevo 666 wrote:

mamba80 wrote:

Pinno wrote:

mamba80 wrote:

Stevo 666 wrote:

Ballysmate wrote:

Says...China.

Steve...Alain?

To talk bollox. Nothing's changed really.

i... flippant!

I got the phone for diddly squat when I signed my last contract. They even chucked in the tablet that I'm typing on now. Result - may go for a Chinese to celebrate.

I hear Cockerpoo is the proffered choice for Chow Mein.

Stevo_666

mamba80 wrote:

Savid javid (another well known leftie) says he wants to support Steel and doesnt want to live in a country where we import all our steel and is willing to spend tax payers money on the industry.....

so steve0, is he wrong?

I'm sure we all want to live in country where we can do that. But not by nationalisation. If you take my estimated costings at face value, its simply too expensive.

That said, there is some serious private sector interest now, from Sanjeev Gupta foundermof Liberty House Commodities:
http://m.economictimes.com/industry/indl-goods/svs/steel/steel-tycoon-sanjeev-gupta-keen-on-acquiring-tata-steels-port-talbot-plants/articleshow/51670715.cms
Let's see what happens. It may be that the state needs to come to some sort of arrangement with him but if it makes the cost sensible given the possible outcome and risks then it is worth considering using taxpayers money.

Stevo_666

Pinno wrote:

Stevo 666 wrote:

mamba80 wrote:

Pinno wrote:

mamba80 wrote:

Stevo 666 wrote:

Ballysmate wrote:

Says...China.

Steve...Alain?

To talk bollox. Nothing's changed really.

i... flippant!

I got the phone for diddly squat when I signed my last contract. They even chucked in the tablet that I'm typing on now. Result - may go for a Chinese to celebrate.

I hear Cockerpoo is the proffered choice for Chow Mein.

You'd have to add lots of garlic.

Stevo_666

mamba80 wrote:

Stevo 666 wrote:

steve0..have you seen the price of those fuggin IPhones!!!! you d not be so flippant!

I got the phone for diddly squat when I signed my last contract. They even chucked in the tablet that I'm typing on now. Result - may go for a Chinese to celebrate.

i tried to get the daughter on the company pay role but they aint into child labour, though of course that might change IF the tories win again.

i d recommend you go to Hongkong and buy a few books on democracy, you might end up in a longer stay than intended lol![/quote]
Been there loads of times on work.



Well aware of the issues on that front, but what do you expect from a communist state?

pinno

Odd state: Run with a Communist parliament but with Capitalist intent.

Frank the tank

We are supposed to be one of the wealthiest nations in the world. As such I do not think it unreasonable we should have a steel industry, as ship building industry, an aircraft building industry, a car industry, a farming industry. if any or all of these need to be state run then so be it.
There is loads that needs doing in this country, but it doesn't get done because some capitalist can't make any money out of it.

ballysmate

Frank the tank wrote:

We are supposed to be one of the wealthiest nations in the world. As such I do not think it unreasonable we should have a steel industry, as ship building industry, an aircraft building industry, a car industry, a farming industry. if any or all of these need to be state run then so be it.
There is loads that needs doing in this country, but it doesn't get done because some capitalist can't make any money out of it.

Customers, Frank. You need customers. You have to make things that people want at a price they can afford.

pinno

I can tell you all about the ship industry which was already waning in 1922 when the Glasgow riveters went on strike fearing unemployment because the Jerries and the Japs had started seam welding and turning ships over a year faster.
The car industry was a ...train crash, starting in the 60's. In 1974, you could buy a 3 speed Vauxhall or a Toyota Celica with electric windows, electric sunroof, 5 speed box and a radio as standard.

We do have BAE systems however...

mamba80

Stevo 666 wrote:

Well aware of the issues on that front, but what do you expect from a communist state?

...... and you ve hit the nail on the head dude, we need to be v cautious around these people.

i m not saying we need to permanently nationalise steel at all, but if we can do stuff with business rates, energy costs and procurement (so what most of EU does) and if that requires some state aid, then so be it, the costs of 10s of 1000s of unemployed and on going cost of failed communities need to be added in also.

finchy

Stevo 666 wrote:

I'm not going to get into another rambling general debate about how good/bad the UK is. I have posted my evidence on most of the areas where I disagree with you, although despite your claim to want thing to be better, your mindset is still negative - your list contains all of your perceived negatives about the UK and none of the positives. Just something to consider finchy - as I often find there is a correlation between positive thinking and future success.

Yeah, that'll be my "negative" mindset that has somehow failed to prevent me living in 4 foreign countries, learning 3 languages, embarking on a (second) degree course at the age of 30 because I wanted to do something a bit more useful. It's that "negative" mindset that has kept me going on my studies through 4 very difficult years. It's also the "negative" mindset that has let me set myself up as self-employed and keep that going. If I change my "negative" mindset, will that magic doctors out of thin air? Will it suddenly put useful qualifications into the hands of all those people who lack them? Will it boost our productivity?

My list contains the negatives about the UK because I was talking about our weaknesses and the areas in which we could improve. What did you expect it to contain?

Stevo 666 wrote:

As for diverting money away from academies? Apart from the fact that the ones round my way are doing very well or improving standards, what exactly would you do with that money to help those affected by the current situation with Tata? There is always talk of 'infrastructure' but what exactly is there in South Wales that you think that needs investing in on the 'infrastructure' front? Without addressing a real need that sounds suspiciously like state job creation schemes that achieve little but keep people officially employed.

The academies round your way? How, exactly, has turning them into academies helped them to improve standards? Even Tory backbenchers are going to rebel over that one.

South Wales - long time since I've been there, but there are always bits of infrastructure that need upgrading.

Stevo 666 wrote:

There is already plenty of infrastructure investment I see - Crossrail 2, huge Thames water super sewer project, tube line extensions, Northern motorway and rail upgrades etc. And we are borrowing to do those...

Well, those will help the people of South Wales...

Stevo_666

Ballysmate wrote:

Frank the tank wrote:

We are supposed to be one of the wealthiest nations in the world. As such I do not think it unreasonable we should have a steel industry, as ship building industry, an aircraft building industry, a car industry, a farming industry. if any or all of these need to be state run then so be it.
There is loads that needs doing in this country, but it doesn't get done because some capitalist can't make any money out of it.

Customers, Frank. You need customers. You have to make things that people want at a price they can afford.

Quite. If you don't do that then nobody can make money out of them: in that case who pays to keep these unviable businesses going? It doesn't grow on trees.

I am also unclear as to what criteria Frank is using for an industry to get on his list of those that are deserving of state largesse and those which are not.

finchy

Stevo 666 wrote:

As for your claim about German steel production, a quick google shows that German steel revenues have dropped from €49.7 bn to €37.8 bn (a decline of nearly 25%) since 2011, so that claim is a load of leftiebollox. Also, why not look at our export of financial services compared to Germany, for example?

German steel production has barely changed. It's the price that has fallen.

Stevo_666

Pinno wrote:

Odd state: Run with a Communist parliament but with Capitalist intent.

Probably that way because those in charge realsied that the only way for the communist party to keep control was to create wealth for the people through capitalist economic policies. Seems to have worked...

Stevo_666

finchy wrote:

Stevo 666 wrote:

As for your claim about German steel production, a quick google shows that German steel revenues have dropped from €49.7 bn to €37.8 bn (a decline of nearly 25%) since 2011, so that claim is a load of leftiebollox. Also, why not look at our export of financial services compared to Germany, for example?

German steel production has barely changed. It's the price that has fallen.

And that changes my statement how?

It's not exactly something for them to feel smug about. You would think that if prices go down they could sell more if they were any good. Or alternatively they are havingto slash margins to maintain volume. Not good business.

finchy

Ballysmate wrote:

Frank the tank wrote:

We are supposed to be one of the wealthiest nations in the world. As such I do not think it unreasonable we should have a steel industry, as ship building industry, an aircraft building industry, a car industry, a farming industry. if any or all of these need to be state run then so be it.
There is loads that needs doing in this country, but it doesn't get done because some capitalist can't make any money out of it.

Customers, Frank. You need customers. You have to make things that people want at a price they can afford.

Why can't we make ships like the Finns? Why do we import so many trains from the Japanese, Germans, French and Italians? These are high value products, essential for the running of our country and if the pound weakens drastically, leaves us vulnerable to paying far more than necessary and we should be able to make them for ourselves. It's not as if we lack industrial heritage and engineering know-how in this country.

The one I would disagree with Frank over in that list is the aircraft industry, as IMO playing a part in Airbus is the only way we can ever challenge Boeing.

pinno

Stevo 666 wrote:

Pinno wrote:

Odd state: Run with a Communist parliament but with Capitalist intent.

Probably that way because those in charge realsied that the only way for the communist party to keep control was to suppress any dissent, imprison people, execute thousands and create wealth for the people through capitalist economic policies. Seems to have worked...

FTFY

http://europe.newsweek.com/china-execut ... oup-278733

Stevo_666

finchy wrote:

Stevo 666 wrote:

I'm not going to get into another rambling general debate about how good/bad the UK is. I have posted my evidence on most of the areas where I disagree with you, although despite your claim to want thing to be better, your mindset is still negative - your list contains all of your perceived negatives about the UK and none of the positives. Just something to consider finchy - as I often find there is a correlation between positive thinking and future success.

Yeah, that'll be my "negative" mindset that has somehow failed to prevent me living in 4 foreign countries, learning 3 languages, embarking on a (second) degree course at the age of 30 because I wanted to do something a bit more useful. It's that "negative" mindset that has kept me going on my studies through 4 very difficult years. It's also the "negative" mindset that has let me set myself up as self-employed and keep that going. If I change my "negative" mindset, will that magic doctors out of thin air? Will it suddenly put useful qualifications into the hands of all those people who lack them? Will it boost our productivity?

My list contains the negatives about the UK because I was talking about our weaknesses and the areas in which we could improve. What did you expect it to contain?

Stevo 666 wrote:

As for diverting money away from academies? Apart from the fact that the ones round my way are doing very well or improving standards, what exactly would you do with that money to help those affected by the current situation with Tata? There is always talk of 'infrastructure' but what exactly is there in South Wales that you think that needs investing in on the 'infrastructure' front? Without addressing a real need that sounds suspiciously like state job creation schemes that achieve little but keep people officially employed.

The academies round your way? How, exactly, has turning them into academies helped them to improve standards? Even Tory backbenchers are going to rebel over that one.

South Wales - long time since I've been there, but there are always bits of infrastructure that need upgrading.

Stevo 666 wrote:

There is already plenty of infrastructure investment I see - Crossrail 2, huge Thames water super sewer project, tube line extensions, Northern motorway and rail upgrades etc. And we are borrowing to do those...

Well, those will help the people of South Wales...

Just quoting the example near me thst I know about, it wasnt an exhaustive list. There is plenty of investment in South Wales - go google.

Not too worried about how academies are getting the good results and improvements - just know its happening in my area. My kid is at one and it is very good indeed.

I'm sure you are positive yourself but you never waste a chance to knock this country on here. Show me a substantial positive statement you have made about the UK on here.

finchy

Stevo 666 wrote:

finchy wrote:

Stevo 666 wrote:

As for your claim about German steel production, a quick google shows that German steel revenues have dropped from €49.7 bn to €37.8 bn (a decline of nearly 25%) since 2011, so that claim is a load of leftiebollox. Also, why not look at our export of financial services compared to Germany, for example?

German steel production has barely changed. It's the price that has fallen.

And that changes my statement how?

It's not exactly something for them to feel smug about. You would think that if prices go down they could sell more if they were any good. Or alternatively they are havingto slash margins to maintain volume. Not good business.

You called mamba's claim that Germany has maintained steel production "leftiebollox". It isn't. They can't sell more at the moment because a global oversupply of many commodities has developed over the past few years, leading to a price crash in steel, oil, copper, etc. They can't sell materials for the production of goods unless the manufacturers of said goods have enough custom. However, if they maintain their production capacity through these hard times, they will be in a decent position once prices start to rise again.

Stevo_666

Pinno wrote:

Stevo 666 wrote:

Pinno wrote:

Odd state: Run with a Communist parliament but with Capitalist intent.

Probably that way because those in charge realsied that the only way for the communist party to keep control was to suppress any dissent, imprison people, execute thousands and create wealth for the people through capitalist economic policies. Seems to have worked...

FTFY

http://europe.newsweek.com/china-execut ... oup-278733

I was talkimg about living standards - thats the capitalsiet part. Your link refers to state control and abuse of the people - that's the socialist bit

finchy

Stevo 666 wrote:

finchy wrote:

Stevo 666 wrote:

I'm not going to get into another rambling general debate about how good/bad the UK is. I have posted my evidence on most of the areas where I disagree with you, although despite your claim to want thing to be better, your mindset is still negative - your list contains all of your perceived negatives about the UK and none of the positives. Just something to consider finchy - as I often find there is a correlation between positive thinking and future success.

Yeah, that'll be my "negative" mindset that has somehow failed to prevent me living in 4 foreign countries, learning 3 languages, embarking on a (second) degree course at the age of 30 because I wanted to do something a bit more useful. It's that "negative" mindset that has kept me going on my studies through 4 very difficult years. It's also the "negative" mindset that has let me set myself up as self-employed and keep that going. If I change my "negative" mindset, will that magic doctors out of thin air? Will it suddenly put useful qualifications into the hands of all those people who lack them? Will it boost our productivity?

My list contains the negatives about the UK because I was talking about our weaknesses and the areas in which we could improve. What did you expect it to contain?

Stevo 666 wrote:

As for diverting money away from academies? Apart from the fact that the ones round my way are doing very well or improving standards, what exactly would you do with that money to help those affected by the current situation with Tata? There is always talk of 'infrastructure' but what exactly is there in South Wales that you think that needs investing in on the 'infrastructure' front? Without addressing a real need that sounds suspiciously like state job creation schemes that achieve little but keep people officially employed.

The academies round your way? How, exactly, has turning them into academies helped them to improve standards? Even Tory backbenchers are going to rebel over that one.

South Wales - long time since I've been there, but there are always bits of infrastructure that need upgrading.

Stevo 666 wrote:

There is already plenty of infrastructure investment I see - Crossrail 2, huge Thames water super sewer project, tube line extensions, Northern motorway and rail upgrades etc. And we are borrowing to do those...

Well, those will help the people of South Wales...

Just quoting the example near me thst I know about, it wasnt an exhaustive list. There is plenty of investment in South Wales - go google.

Not too worried about how academies are getting the good results and improvements - just know its happening in my area. My kid is at one and it is very good indeed.

I'm sure you are positive yourself but you never waste a chance to knock this country on here. Show me a substantial positive statement you have made about the UK on here.

2 posts above yours. Mentioning the UK's industrial know-how and engineering heritage. Something I've done quite a few times in the past on this forum, as well as praising our excellent universities, arts, landscape and defending our national food and drink. I've also stated my belief that with proper long-term vision and investment, this country can compete with anywhere else in the world in any field.

pinno

Stevo 666 wrote:

Pinno wrote:

Stevo 666 wrote:

Pinno wrote:

Odd state: Run with a Communist parliament but with Capitalist intent.

Probably that way because those in charge realsied that the only way for the communist party to keep control was to suppress any dissent, imprison people, execute thousands and create wealth for the people through capitalist economic policies. Seems to have worked...

FTFY

http://europe.newsweek.com/china-execut ... oup-278733

I was talkimg about living standards - thats the capitalsiet part. Your link refers to state control and abuse of the people - that's the socialist bit

The unavoidable socialist bit. Yes, rising living standards at a huge environmental and human cost. Never mind all the countries in Africa they are 'investing' in so that Chinese money is readily available directly to pay for Ivory and Rhino horn.

Stevo_666

finchy wrote:

Stevo 666 wrote:

finchy wrote:

Stevo 666 wrote:

As for your claim about German steel production, a quick google shows that German steel revenues have dropped from €49.7 bn to €37.8 bn (a decline of nearly 25%) since 2011, so that claim is a load of leftiebollox. Also, why not look at our export of financial services compared to Germany, for example?

German steel production has barely changed. It's the price that has fallen.

And that changes my statement how?

It's not exactly something for them to feel smug about. You would think that if prices go down they could sell more if they were any good. Or alternatively they are havingto slash margins to maintain volume. Not good business.

You called mamba's claim that Germany has maintained steel production "leftiebollox". It isn't. They can't sell more at the moment because a global oversupply of many commodities has developed over the past few years, leading to a price crash in steel, oil, copper, etc. They can't sell materials for the production of goods unless the manufacturers of said goods have enough custom. However, if they maintain their production capacity through these hard times, they will be in a decent position once prices start to rise again.

Do I really have to explain to you why a 25% decline in revenues is bad business?

Have a read of this - quite instructive as to how the decline in the UK steel industry was caused, and and guess what - nationalisation and unions were a prime cause. It also shows just how well German steel industry is doing (not):
http://news.sky.com/story/1626349/50-years-of-decline-for-uk-steel-industry

Stevo_666

Pinno wrote:

Stevo 666 wrote:

Pinno wrote:

Stevo 666 wrote:

Pinno wrote:

Odd state: Run with a Communist parliament but with Capitalist intent.

Probably that way because those in charge realsied that the only way for the communist party to keep control was to suppress any dissent, imprison people, execute thousands and create wealth for the people through capitalist economic policies. Seems to have worked...

FTFY

http://europe.newsweek.com/china-execut ... oup-278733

I was talkimg about living standards - thats the capitalsiet part. Your link refers to state control and abuse of the people - that's the socialist bit

The unavoidable socialist bit. Yes, rising living standards at a huge environmental and human cost. Never mind all the countries in Africa they are 'investing' in so that Chinese money is readily available directly to pay for Ivory and Rhino horn.

Polllution and animal exploitation as well as human rights abuses? These socialist states, eh.

pinno

Stevo 666 wrote:

Pinno wrote:

Stevo 666 wrote:

Pinno wrote:

Stevo 666 wrote:

Pinno wrote:

Odd state: Run with a Communist parliament but with Capitalist intent.

Probably that way because those in charge realsied that the only way for the communist party to keep control was to suppress any dissent, imprison people, execute thousands and create wealth for the people through capitalist economic policies. Seems to have worked...

FTFY

http://europe.newsweek.com/china-execut ... oup-278733

I was talkimg about living standards - thats the capitalsiet part. Your link refers to state control and abuse of the people - that's the socialist bit

The unavoidable socialist bit. Yes, rising living standards at a huge environmental and human cost. Never mind all the countries in Africa they are 'investing' in so that Chinese money is readily available directly to pay for Ivory and Rhino horn.

Polllution and animal exploitation as well as human rights abuses? These socialist states, eh.

At that cost, I don't think that the Capitalist bit out weighs the Socialist bit.

finchy

Stevo 666 wrote:

finchy wrote:

Stevo 666 wrote:

finchy wrote:

Stevo 666 wrote:

As for your claim about German steel production, a quick google shows that German steel revenues have dropped from €49.7 bn to €37.8 bn (a decline of nearly 25%) since 2011, so that claim is a load of leftiebollox. Also, why not look at our export of financial services compared to Germany, for example?

German steel production has barely changed. It's the price that has fallen.

And that changes my statement how?

It's not exactly something for them to feel smug about. You would think that if prices go down they could sell more if they were any good. Or alternatively they are havingto slash margins to maintain volume. Not good business.

You called mamba's claim that Germany has maintained steel production "leftiebollox". It isn't. They can't sell more at the moment because a global oversupply of many commodities has developed over the past few years, leading to a price crash in steel, oil, copper, etc. They can't sell materials for the production of goods unless the manufacturers of said goods have enough custom. However, if they maintain their production capacity through these hard times, they will be in a decent position once prices start to rise again.

Do I really have to explain to you why a 25% decline in revenues is bad business?

Have a read of this - quite instructive as to how the decline in the UK steel industry was caused, and and guess what - nationalisation and unions were a prime cause. It also shows just how well German steel industry is doing (not):
http://news.sky.com/story/1626349/50-years-of-decline-for-uk-steel-industry

Mamba was talking about production. You said his claim that German steel production had been maintained was "leftiebollox". Don't try moving the goalposts. And do I really have to explain to you that prices change over time, and steel will eventually go up again?

As for the German steel industry's performance, it's producing nearly 4 times as much as Britain. The poor things.

pinno

Which in turn supports their car industry - VW Audi; biggest car manufacturer in Europe.

pinno

...and the other German one's.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_largest_European_manufacturing_companies_by_revenue

pinno

Pinno wrote:

...and the other German one's.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_largest_European_manufacturing_companies_by_revenue

Oh look, we pop up 26th on the list behind a Swedish company.

Stevo_666

finchy wrote:

Stevo 666 wrote:

finchy wrote:

Stevo 666 wrote:

finchy wrote:

Stevo 666 wrote:

As for your claim about German steel production, a quick google shows that German steel revenues have dropped from €49.7 bn to €37.8 bn (a decline of nearly 25%) since 2011, so that claim is a load of leftiebollox. Also, why not look at our export of financial services compared to Germany, for example?

German steel production has barely changed. It's the price that has fallen.

And that changes my statement how?

It's not exactly something for them to feel smug about. You would think that if prices go down they could sell more if they were any good. Or alternatively they are havingto slash margins to maintain volume. Not good business.

You called mamba's claim that Germany has maintained steel production "leftiebollox". It isn't. They can't sell more at the moment because a global oversupply of many commodities has developed over the past few years, leading to a price crash in steel, oil, copper, etc. They can't sell materials for the production of goods unless the manufacturers of said goods have enough custom. However, if they maintain their production capacity through these hard times, they will be in a decent position once prices start to rise again.

Do I really have to explain to you why a 25% decline in revenues is bad business?

Have a read of this - quite instructive as to how the decline in the UK steel industry was caused, and and guess what - nationalisation and unions were a prime cause. It also shows just how well German steel industry is doing (not):
http://news.sky.com/story/1626349/50-years-of-decline-for-uk-steel-industry

Mamba was talking about production. You said his claim that German steel production had been maintained was "leftiebollox". Don't try moving the goalposts. And do I really have to explain to you that prices change over time, and steel will eventually go up again?

As for the German steel industry's performance, it's producing nearly 4 times as much as Britain. The poor things.

I made a true statement about revenues declining. Its not dificult to maintain production volumes by slashing prices but it is still bad business. Mamba was tryig tosay it was all rosy in the German garden and I called him out on that, rightly so.

Now maybe lets compare UK and German financial services industries? Yep, poor Germany

Minutes after denying you are out to knock the UK, here you go again....