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lol have you seen Ed Davey? It's all relative.TheBigBean said:Starmer is really underwhelming. I know there is little choice at the moment. Lib Dems really should be gaining.
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Underwhelming sounds like manna from heaven compared to the last few years. I suspect that large swathes of voters will stay at home. Mind you, there are an awful lot of people who really really want the Tories out, balancing things out a little.TheBigBean said:Starmer is really underwhelming. I know there is little choice at the moment. Lib Dems really should be gaining.
LibDems best chance will be once Labour are in. The Tories need a lot of rehabilitation before many will think of voting for them again making the Lib Dems ideally placed to sweep up the inevitable anti incumbent government vote.0 -
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Actually most people haven't and therein lies part of the problem.rick_chasey said:
lol have you seen Ed Davey?TheBigBean said:Starmer is really underwhelming. I know there is little choice at the moment. Lib Dems really should be gaining.
"I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]1 -
Who's Ned Mavey?0
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Interesting article for those of you who think that nice cuddly Labour will let lots of people come to the UK (unlike the nasty Tories):
https://msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/labour-aims-to-halve-net-migration-in-first-term/ar-AA1ky4Et?cvid=681c296356c94cdebff4b45c2797993c&ocid=winp2fptaskbarent&ei=14
Wonder how they will manage that?"I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]0 -
Not sure anyone here has claimed the Conservatives are not letting lots of people come to the UK Stevo. Quite the contrary.Stevo_666 said:Interesting article for those of you who think that nice cuddly Labour will let lots of people come to the UK (unlike the nasty Tories):
https://msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/labour-aims-to-halve-net-migration-in-first-term/ar-AA1ky4Et?cvid=681c296356c94cdebff4b45c2797993c&ocid=winp2fptaskbarent&ei=14
Wonder how they will manage that?- Genesis Croix de Fer
- Dolan Tuono0 -
pangolin said:
Not sure anyone here has claimed the Conservatives are not letting lots of people come to the UK Stevo. Quite the contrary.Stevo_666 said:Interesting article for those of you who think that nice cuddly Labour will let lots of people come to the UK (unlike the nasty Tories):
https://msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/labour-aims-to-halve-net-migration-in-first-term/ar-AA1ky4Et?cvid=681c296356c94cdebff4b45c2797993c&ocid=winp2fptaskbarent&ei=14
Wonder how they will manage that?
In Stevo's defence (not something I make a habit of), I think he's just suggesting that Labour will struggle to improve the current situation, and I'd agree.
That said, maybe UK voters will start to wake up to the fact that immigration isn't necessarily a bad thing (and actually can be a rather good thing), and then maybe Labour will have the courage to admit it, in the way I hope they'll gradually admit to, erm, other things that they don't need to fell quite so afraid of admitting, as the electorate is changing its views on a number of matters.0 -
The point is what Labour are planning to do. Any comments on that?pangolin said:
Not sure anyone here has claimed the Conservatives are not letting lots of people come to the UK Stevo. Quite the contrary.Stevo_666 said:Interesting article for those of you who think that nice cuddly Labour will let lots of people come to the UK (unlike the nasty Tories):
https://msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/labour-aims-to-halve-net-migration-in-first-term/ar-AA1ky4Et?cvid=681c296356c94cdebff4b45c2797993c&ocid=winp2fptaskbarent&ei=14
Wonder how they will manage that?"I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]0 -
Some immigration is needed and beneficial, but too much can cause problems: the question is how much. But my point point here is that there appears to be little difference between Tory and Labour objectives on immigration.briantrumpet said:pangolin said:
Not sure anyone here has claimed the Conservatives are not letting lots of people come to the UK Stevo. Quite the contrary.Stevo_666 said:Interesting article for those of you who think that nice cuddly Labour will let lots of people come to the UK (unlike the nasty Tories):
https://msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/labour-aims-to-halve-net-migration-in-first-term/ar-AA1ky4Et?cvid=681c296356c94cdebff4b45c2797993c&ocid=winp2fptaskbarent&ei=14
Wonder how they will manage that?
In Stevo's defence (not something I make a habit of), I think he's just suggesting that Labour will struggle to improve the current situation, and I'd agree.
That said, maybe UK voters will start to wake up to the fact that immigration isn't necessarily a bad thing (and actually can be a rather good thing), and then maybe Labour will have the courage to admit it, in the way I hope they'll gradually admit to, erm, other things that they don't need to fell quite so afraid of admitting, as the electorate is changing its views on a number of matters."I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]0 -
Stevo_666 said:
Some immigration is needed and beneficial, but too much can cause problems: the question is how much. But my point point here is that there appears to be little difference between Tory and Labour objectives on immigration.briantrumpet said:pangolin said:
Not sure anyone here has claimed the Conservatives are not letting lots of people come to the UK Stevo. Quite the contrary.Stevo_666 said:Interesting article for those of you who think that nice cuddly Labour will let lots of people come to the UK (unlike the nasty Tories):
https://msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/labour-aims-to-halve-net-migration-in-first-term/ar-AA1ky4Et?cvid=681c296356c94cdebff4b45c2797993c&ocid=winp2fptaskbarent&ei=14
Wonder how they will manage that?
In Stevo's defence (not something I make a habit of), I think he's just suggesting that Labour will struggle to improve the current situation, and I'd agree.
That said, maybe UK voters will start to wake up to the fact that immigration isn't necessarily a bad thing (and actually can be a rather good thing), and then maybe Labour will have the courage to admit it, in the way I hope they'll gradually admit to, erm, other things that they don't need to fell quite so afraid of admitting, as the electorate is changing its views on a number of matters.
Quite so. To an extent I can understand Labour's timidity in not wishing to give right-wing media ammunition way ahead of an election, but it'll be interesting to see how far voters' attitudes shift in the coming months, and what risks, if any, Labour takes in moving towards those attitudes. Sooner or later they'll need to distinguish themselves from the Tories not just in aspirational platitudes (and perceived competence), but in actual policies and how they plan to achieve them.
I'll still vote for whoever will beat the Tory in my constituency, whatever Labour come up with, as the Tory Party needs to go out into the wilderness and get rid of the loons, and come back as a serious party with competent, honest people, first of all in opposition. If they can't even manage that, then they deserve to perish, as a party.0 -
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Thought notStevo_666 said:
The point is what Labour are planning to do. Any comments on that?pangolin said:
Not sure anyone here has claimed the Conservatives are not letting lots of people come to the UK Stevo. Quite the contrary.Stevo_666 said:Interesting article for those of you who think that nice cuddly Labour will let lots of people come to the UK (unlike the nasty Tories):
https://msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/labour-aims-to-halve-net-migration-in-first-term/ar-AA1ky4Et?cvid=681c296356c94cdebff4b45c2797993c&ocid=winp2fptaskbarent&ei=14
Wonder how they will manage that?
"I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]0 -
It's fairly obvious. I thought it was worth making the point in Cake Stop as that doesn't seem to be a representative cross section of voters.rick_chasey said:*most voters want more limited immigration* for the last time
"I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]1 -
Shame for you your party has been breaking records for the net immigration, eh?Stevo_666 said:
It's fairly obvious. I thought it was worth making the point in Cake Stop as that doesn't seem to be a representative cross section of voters.rick_chasey said:*most voters want more limited immigration* for the last time
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Whatever would make you think that the Tories aren't heavily pro-immigration?Stevo_666 said:Interesting article for those of you who think that nice cuddly Labour will let lots of people come to the UK (unlike the nasty Tories):
https://msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/labour-aims-to-halve-net-migration-in-first-term/ar-AA1ky4Et?cvid=681c296356c94cdebff4b45c2797993c&ocid=winp2fptaskbarent&ei=14
Wonder how they will manage that?
Not seen Labour's plans beyond a meaningless number and a'hope' to bring net migration down to'normal' levels. Doubt it will make any difference. I don't believe governments have very much control over migration in the first place.1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
Pinnacle Monzonite
Part of the anti-growth coalition0 -
I think creating clear blue water between them and the Tories on immigration is a good idea.Stevo_666 said:
Thought notStevo_666 said:
The point is what Labour are planning to do. Any comments on that?pangolin said:
Not sure anyone here has claimed the Conservatives are not letting lots of people come to the UK Stevo. Quite the contrary.Stevo_666 said:Interesting article for those of you who think that nice cuddly Labour will let lots of people come to the UK (unlike the nasty Tories):
https://msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/labour-aims-to-halve-net-migration-in-first-term/ar-AA1ky4Et?cvid=681c296356c94cdebff4b45c2797993c&ocid=winp2fptaskbarent&ei=14
Wonder how they will manage that?
I suspect whatever number the Tories let in that Labour would pledge to halve it, with the number at 700,000 you get more bang for your halving pledge.0 -
Surely it's not difficult to put an arbitrary number on visas every year? Whether that would be a desirable thing to do or not is a different argument.rjsterry said:
Whatever would make you think that the Tories aren't heavily pro-immigration?Stevo_666 said:Interesting article for those of you who think that nice cuddly Labour will let lots of people come to the UK (unlike the nasty Tories):
https://msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/labour-aims-to-halve-net-migration-in-first-term/ar-AA1ky4Et?cvid=681c296356c94cdebff4b45c2797993c&ocid=winp2fptaskbarent&ei=14
Wonder how they will manage that?
Not seen Labour's plans beyond a meaningless number and a'hope' to bring net migration down to'normal' levels. Doubt it will make any difference. I don't believe governments have very much control over migration in the first place.
Interestingly(?) The number of visas granted to dependents of students is greater than DCs original immigration target. I would have thought there's an easy win there.0 -
I think I read somewhere that the numbers will fall to approximately 300k per year without any action from the government. Presumably when the original wave of foreign students and other workers start to go home.0
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It will be interesting to see how Labour claim they will do this.surrey_commuter said:
I think creating clear blue water between them and the Tories on immigration is a good idea.Stevo_666 said:
Thought notStevo_666 said:
The point is what Labour are planning to do. Any comments on that?pangolin said:
Not sure anyone here has claimed the Conservatives are not letting lots of people come to the UK Stevo. Quite the contrary.Stevo_666 said:Interesting article for those of you who think that nice cuddly Labour will let lots of people come to the UK (unlike the nasty Tories):
https://msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/labour-aims-to-halve-net-migration-in-first-term/ar-AA1ky4Et?cvid=681c296356c94cdebff4b45c2797993c&ocid=winp2fptaskbarent&ei=14
Wonder how they will manage that?
I suspect whatever number the Tories let in that Labour would pledge to halve it, with the number at 700,000 you get more bang for your halving pledge."I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]0 -
The best bet is probably to not make immigration a big issue. I've never understood why the Tories keep making big promises about it when they surely must realise they can't deliver the promises (and that delivering it may not be the best thing for the country in many ways).0
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As I recall you're an advocate of the 'let them all in, the more the merrier' approach to immigration, so either you think the Tories are doing a good job, or else you've changed your tune and think that the numbers need to be reduced.rick_chasey said:
Shame for you your party has been breaking records for the net immigration, eh?Stevo_666 said:
It's fairly obvious. I thought it was worth making the point in Cake Stop as that doesn't seem to be a representative cross section of voters.rick_chasey said:*most voters want more limited immigration* for the last time
Which one is it?"I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]0 -
Great job on immigration. They should shout about it more. Weird that they are so embarrassed about it.
Probably upsets a few people who worry about 'British values' and of course all the people who think we are'running out of space', but who cares?1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
Pinnacle Monzonite
Part of the anti-growth coalition0 -
Well if you're OK with an ever rising population on an island with limited space and the strain that puts on services, housing, quality of life etc, that's up to you. Not sure how quality of life is a uniquely British value.rjsterry said:Great job on immigration. They should shout about it more. Weird that they are so embarrassed about it.
Probably upsets a few people who worry about 'British values' and of course all the people who think we are'running out of space', but who cares?"I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]0 -
Still thinking about it Rick?Stevo_666 said:
As I recall you're an advocate of the 'let them all in, the more the merrier' approach to immigration, so either you think the Tories are doing a good job, or else you've changed your tune and think that the numbers need to be reduced.rick_chasey said:
Shame for you your party has been breaking records for the net immigration, eh?Stevo_666 said:
It's fairly obvious. I thought it was worth making the point in Cake Stop as that doesn't seem to be a representative cross section of voters.rick_chasey said:*most voters want more limited immigration* for the last time
Which one is it?"I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]0 -
Best speak to your MP or something. See if you can get them to change course 🤣Stevo_666 said:
Well if you're OK with an ever rising population on an island with limited space and the strain that puts on services, housing, quality of life etc, that's up to you. Not sure how quality of life is a uniquely British value.rjsterry said:Great job on immigration. They should shout about it more. Weird that they are so embarrassed about it.
Probably upsets a few people who worry about 'British values' and of course all the people who think we are'running out of space', but who cares?1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
Pinnacle Monzonite
Part of the anti-growth coalition0 -
IMO the tragedy about immigration is that it all gets lost in this big "net migration" number.Stevo_666 said:
Still thinking about it Rick?Stevo_666 said:
As I recall you're an advocate of the 'let them all in, the more the merrier' approach to immigration, so either you think the Tories are doing a good job, or else you've changed your tune and think that the numbers need to be reduced.rick_chasey said:
Shame for you your party has been breaking records for the net immigration, eh?Stevo_666 said:
It's fairly obvious. I thought it was worth making the point in Cake Stop as that doesn't seem to be a representative cross section of voters.rick_chasey said:*most voters want more limited immigration* for the last time
Which one is it?
The reality is, that Britain always has always profited from our own particular blend of immigration.
Students coming in to study either pay a lot of money to our economy and go back after 3 years (generally with a favourable impression of the UK) or stay and become high earners.
EU migration inwards was great because someone else would have to school and train the "workers" and because we're expensive to live in and our weather is censored, someone else would pay for those workers retirement.
EU migration outwards was great because our citizens get to live somewhere cheaper and with better weather and someone else picks up the the lions share of the tab for our retirees in poor health.
Brexit means that people are that much less mobile so EU immigrants might have intended to stay for a few years only, but will now stay for longer because once they've gone back, they're not coming back. Or we lose the brightest because someone else offers a better deal.
It's become this big toxic conversation where it's impossible to argue that British citizens can benefit from migration inwards and outwards (especially in retirement) because we're fearful of too many people coming in. Whilst there are many countries of similar size to ours (like Italy or Japan) that have been crippled by falling birth rates and aging demographics.
I would agree that cakestoppers are out of step with the public on immigration but I would also argue that the public's viewpoint has been distorted by the "immigration is bad" media narrative.
On the whole, we've profited very nicely, and we could have avoided most of the detrimental impacts had we built enough housing and planned accordingly.
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Your Party has waved in 700,000 extra people in the last year (whilst making a massive deal of stopping a few thousand entering in small boats).Stevo_666 said:
Well if you're OK with an ever rising population on an island with limited space and the strain that puts on services, housing, quality of life etc, that's up to you. Not sure how quality of life is a uniquely British value.rjsterry said:Great job on immigration. They should shout about it more. Weird that they are so embarrassed about it.
Probably upsets a few people who worry about 'British values' and of course all the people who think we are'running out of space', but who cares?0 -
Pross said:
Your Party has waved in 700,000 extra people in the last year (whilst making a massive deal of stopping a few thousand entering in small boats).Stevo_666 said:
Well if you're OK with an ever rising population on an island with limited space and the strain that puts on services, housing, quality of life etc, that's up to you. Not sure how quality of life is a uniquely British value.rjsterry said:Great job on immigration. They should shout about it more. Weird that they are so embarrassed about it.
Probably upsets a few people who worry about 'British values' and of course all the people who think we are'running out of space', but who cares?
I think that you'll find that Stevo doesn't care what His Party have done to the country for the past 13 years, but he's 100% confident that Labour will be worse.1 -
Surely that should be "failing to stop a few thousand"Pross said:
Your Party has waved in 700,000 extra people in the last year (whilst making a massive deal of stopping a few thousand entering in small boats).Stevo_666 said:
Well if you're OK with an ever rising population on an island with limited space and the strain that puts on services, housing, quality of life etc, that's up to you. Not sure how quality of life is a uniquely British value.rjsterry said:Great job on immigration. They should shout about it more. Weird that they are so embarrassed about it.
Probably upsets a few people who worry about 'British values' and of course all the people who think we are'running out of space', but who cares?0
