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elbowloh

Lagrange wrote:

morstar wrote:

Stevo 666 wrote:

rjsterry wrote:

Stevo 666 wrote:

morstar wrote:

rjsterry wrote:

As I may have posted before, my mother was involved with the interviewing for Bristol Vet School for a few years. I remember her commenting that grades were a pretty poor indicator of how they came across in the interview and suitability to become a veterinary surgeon.

Interestingly enough, they don't interview anymore. We did the open day this year as my daughter is aiming to do veterinary starting 2020.
With all the objective assessment methods (questionnaires etc.) they use, they have statistically identified that the interview made no difference.
I found that quite interesting as somebody with an analytical mind who also has done a lot of interviewing/hiring over the years.

This is true as we were at the Bristol vet course open day just over 2 weeks ago and they told us exactly the same thing (although all the other unis she is applying to do still interview).

I suppose it is inevitable as they have already pushed the grade criteria as far as they can go, so it was all down to one person's gut feeling, which is hardly a rigorous approach.

The more cynical view is that it's too expensive and time consuming...

The lady who gave our talk more or less said that. Given the talent pool available, and supply of academically gifted students chasing a finite number of places, a minor difference in outcome at significant cost to both University and student doesn't really make sense.

Maybe in Bristol the animals are deaf so the applicants speaking skills are not relevant.

My wife is a vet. As i understand it, there is a real problem with vets leaving the profession.

A recent survey by the RCVS says that 37% are considering leaving and that does count the thousands who already have.

It's a tough job, often with very long hours (often 8am to 7pm) with 1 in 3 or 1 in 4 weekends, plus lates and on-call, often rushed off your feet with little opportunity to have a break or lunch during the day.

Outside of working for a charity (PDSA, Bluecross etc), vets in private practice often have poor benefits compared to many other jobs, e.g in terms of holiday, sick pay, maternity pay etc. Up until the people's pension introduction, most private practices did not have pension schemes and everyone paid into private pensions.

A Lot of vets get into it because of a love of animals and they spend a lot of time around (obviously) sick and distressed animals who sometimes have to be put down.

It has one of the highest rates of suicide, depression, alcoholism and drug addiction of any job.

And all this for for relatively (compared to a doctor) little financial reward (unless you own the practice). Its higher than the average wage, yes, but vets are often on £38k - £45k pa after 6 years at Uni and years of experience.

Rather than address the problems with the job itself, the answer seems to be to create more university places to replace those who have left. Just chuck them into the meat grinder.

rjsterry

elbowloh wrote:

Lagrange wrote:

morstar wrote:

Stevo 666 wrote:

rjsterry wrote:

Stevo 666 wrote:

morstar wrote:

rjsterry wrote:

As I may have posted before, my mother was involved with the interviewing for Bristol Vet School for a few years. I remember her commenting that grades were a pretty poor indicator of how they came across in the interview and suitability to become a veterinary surgeon.

Interestingly enough, they don't interview anymore. We did the open day this year as my daughter is aiming to do veterinary starting 2020.
With all the objective assessment methods (questionnaires etc.) they use, they have statistically identified that the interview made no difference.
I found that quite interesting as somebody with an analytical mind who also has done a lot of interviewing/hiring over the years.

This is true as we were at the Bristol vet course open day just over 2 weeks ago and they told us exactly the same thing (although all the other unis she is applying to do still interview).

I suppose it is inevitable as they have already pushed the grade criteria as far as they can go, so it was all down to one person's gut feeling, which is hardly a rigorous approach.

The more cynical view is that it's too expensive and time consuming...

The lady who gave our talk more or less said that. Given the talent pool available, and supply of academically gifted students chasing a finite number of places, a minor difference in outcome at significant cost to both University and student doesn't really make sense.

Maybe in Bristol the animals are deaf so the applicants speaking skills are not relevant.

My wife is a vet. As i understand it, there is a real problem with vets leaving the profession.

A recent survey by the RCVS says that 37% are considering leaving and that does count the thousands who already have.

It's a tough job, often with very long hours (often 8am to 7pm) with 1 in 3 or 1 in 4 weekends, plus lates and on-call, often rushed off your feet with little opportunity to have a break or lunch during the day.

Outside of working for a charity (PDSA, Bluecross etc), vets in private practice often have poor benefits compared to many other jobs, e.g in terms of holiday, sick pay, maternity pay etc. Up until the people's pension introduction, most private practices did not have pension schemes and everyone paid into private pensions.

A Lot of vets get into it because of a love of animals and they spend a lot of time around (obviously) sick and distressed animals who sometimes have to be put down.

It has one of the highest rates of suicide, depression, alcoholism and drug addiction of any job.

And all this for for relatively (compared to a doctor) little financial reward (unless you own the practice). Its higher than the average wage, yes, but vets are often on £38 - £45 pa after 6 years at Uni and years of experience.

Rather than address the problems with the job itself, the answer seems to be to create more university places to replace those who have left. Just chuck them into the meat grinder.

This.

shirley_basso

Agree with all the above. My wife is also a vet.

This is the most terrifying comment, which is tragically very true.

It has one of the highest rates of suicide, depression, alcoholism and drug addiction of any job.

Fortunately the poor salary means we can't afford a drug addiction.

Elbow - some observations from my wife:

The big issue regarding pay is, in a roundabout way, due to the NHS. Because healthcare in the UK is free, noone really has any appreciation for how much it costs. Veterinary fees are the most discounted in any qualified profession, something like 45%. Therefore revenues are low and staff can't be adequately remunerated, particularly for the long and sometimes crappy hours.

Regarding some of the working conditions - the huge difficulty is dealing with clients' emotional baggage. For some their pet is closer than any human relationship and when it comes to putting the animal to sleep, it is a huge weight on the vets shoulders. Often, when the owner is particularly elderly and can't afford palliative care, you basically have to talk the owner round in that a PTS is the right thing to do, thus leaving that owner literally alone for the rest of their life.

Then you have the long list of people who typically can't afford veterinary care or insurance, who again, you can't just not treat or fob off to someone else.

The advice she always gives is to not get a pedigree animal, and always get the thing insured, unless you are pretty laid back and happy to euthenaise if you are in danger of receiving a huge vet bill (people do this too - so it's the vets job to make them not feel bad about making this decision).

All the while there is no 'formal' process for treating animals and dealing with owners, like, for example doctors. Everything has a clear pathway with opportunity for intervention to support the family and doctor if a difficult decision needs to be made. For many clients the emotional and financial decisions are just as severe when it comes to their pets are while support networks are out there, it is all very informal.

rjsterry

Shirley Basso wrote:

Agree with all the above. My wife is also a vet.

This is the most terrifying comment, which is tragically very true.

It has one of the highest rates of suicide, depression, alcoholism and drug addiction of any job.

Fortunately the poor salary means we can't afford a drug addiction.

But there is relatively easy access to barbiturates. Growing up I can remember hearing about more than one of my parents' contemporaries taking their own lives.

pblakeney

elbowloh wrote:

... Just chuck them into the meat grinder.

A rather unfortunate phrase to use. Or deliberate?

elbowloh

PBlakeney wrote:

elbowloh wrote:

... Just chuck them into the meat grinder.

A rather unfortunate phrase to use. Or deliberate?

I'll leave that to the reader!

elbowloh

Shirley Basso wrote:

Then you have the long list of people who typically can't afford veterinary care or insurance, who again, you can't just not treat or fob off to someone else.

My wife has been working for a charity for a number of years now (after quite a long time in private practice) and she comes across loads of people who spend, say, £2000 on a dog, but "can't" afford to pay insurance and qualify for the charity vet who are then lumbered with the bills.

As you say, you can't refuse to treat an animal, it's an offence that can lead to you being struck off.

It is expensive for private vet care, with medicines often charged at multiple times the cost price, but this is needed to cover the capital costs and running costs of a practice. On the flip side, i believe that the hourly rate for a vets time even if it seems high, is actually far, far less than you would see in other professions e.g. a private doctor or a lawyer, because people just won't pay that!

Shirley Basso wrote:

The advice she always gives is to not get a pedigree animal.

Totally (this is my view and not from anyone else)
1) There are a lot of disreputable breeders out there, selling animals that are sick or genetically compromised let's say.
2) Even "properly" bred pedigree animals have inherent health problems - for example the breathing problems with flat-nosed breeds
3) There are so many healthy animals out there in shelters that need homes, who are free!

shirley_basso

Don't get her started on importing strays from overseas....

haydenm

I don't think I'd pay £2k for a genetically deformed dog for it's looks, I would pay £2k for a specialist trained working dog though...

Alejandrosdog

the answer is don't get pets if you can't afford them. because they will get sick.

shirley_basso

Pet insurance is one policy you are guaranteed to claim on. Expensive though, and rightly so.

Hayden - people don't buy deformed dogs only for their looks, they do it for the and 'popularity'.

bompington

Back to Labour (and the Tories)
Like a lot of Guardian regulars, I don't agree much with Marina Hyde's politics and therefore a lot of her writing, but this is entertaining, cathartic and hard to disagree with.

Alejandrosdog

HaydenM wrote:

I don't think I'd pay £2k for a genetically deformed dog for it's looks, I would pay £2k for a specialist trained working dog though...

I did think there might be a lot of hounds available at one point but it turns out they are very good to chase and find pretend foxes. however when they find a real fox the VR alternative is dropped. its like making love to a beautiful woman or watching prnhub, no contest.

Pross

Shirley Basso wrote:

Pet insurance is one policy you are guaranteed to claim on. Expensive though, and rightly so.

Hayden - people don't buy deformed dogs only for their looks, they do it for the and 'popularity'.

I never claimed on equine insurance as even when the horses needed some treatment the excess was nearly as much, the premium would go up the next year and quite often a claim for, as an example, a lower leg injury would mean that they wouldn't cover any further injury to that leg. It was still piece of mind against the massive costs though which I'd seen others end up with. So far we've been lucky with pets in general and when our Staffy got ill we decided having her put down was the kindest option anyway.

Stevo_666

elbowloh wrote:

Lagrange wrote:

morstar wrote:

Stevo 666 wrote:

rjsterry wrote:

Stevo 666 wrote:

morstar wrote:

rjsterry wrote:

As I may have posted before, my mother was involved with the interviewing for Bristol Vet School for a few years. I remember her commenting that grades were a pretty poor indicator of how they came across in the interview and suitability to become a veterinary surgeon.

Interestingly enough, they don't interview anymore. We did the open day this year as my daughter is aiming to do veterinary starting 2020.
With all the objective assessment methods (questionnaires etc.) they use, they have statistically identified that the interview made no difference.
I found that quite interesting as somebody with an analytical mind who also has done a lot of interviewing/hiring over the years.

This is true as we were at the Bristol vet course open day just over 2 weeks ago and they told us exactly the same thing (although all the other unis she is applying to do still interview).

I suppose it is inevitable as they have already pushed the grade criteria as far as they can go, so it was all down to one person's gut feeling, which is hardly a rigorous approach.

The more cynical view is that it's too expensive and time consuming...

The lady who gave our talk more or less said that. Given the talent pool available, and supply of academically gifted students chasing a finite number of places, a minor difference in outcome at significant cost to both University and student doesn't really make sense.

Maybe in Bristol the animals are deaf so the applicants speaking skills are not relevant.

My wife is a vet. As i understand it, there is a real problem with vets leaving the profession.

A recent survey by the RCVS says that 37% are considering leaving and that does count the thousands who already have.

It's a tough job, often with very long hours (often 8am to 7pm) with 1 in 3 or 1 in 4 weekends, plus lates and on-call, often rushed off your feet with little opportunity to have a break or lunch during the day.

Outside of working for a charity (PDSA, Bluecross etc), vets in private practice often have poor benefits compared to many other jobs, e.g in terms of holiday, sick pay, maternity pay etc. Up until the people's pension introduction, most private practices did not have pension schemes and everyone paid into private pensions.

A Lot of vets get into it because of a love of animals and they spend a lot of time around (obviously) sick and distressed animals who sometimes have to be put down.

It has one of the highest rates of suicide, depression, alcoholism and drug addiction of any job.

And all this for for relatively (compared to a doctor) little financial reward (unless you own the practice). Its higher than the average wage, yes, but vets are often on £38k - £45k pa after 6 years at Uni and years of experience.

Rather than address the problems with the job itself, the answer seems to be to create more university places to replace those who have left. Just chuck them into the meat grinder.

Never harms to be aware of the downsides.

We've done our best to give junior a warts and all picture of the veterinary profession and she still wants to do it. Uni applications now imminent...

shirley_basso

Pross wrote:

Shirley Basso wrote:

Pet insurance is one policy you are guaranteed to claim on. Expensive though, and rightly so.

Hayden - people don't buy deformed dogs only for their looks, they do it for the and 'popularity'.

I never claimed on equine insurance as even when the horses needed some treatment the excess was nearly as much, the premium would go up the next year and quite often a claim for, as an example, a lower leg injury would mean that they wouldn't cover any further injury to that leg. It was still piece of mind against the massive costs though which I'd seen others end up with. So far we've been lucky with pets in general and when our Staffy got ill we decided having her put down was the kindest option anyway.

Probably right. My experience is with small animals. Horses are a whole different kettle of lasagne.

Pross

That's brilliant

Stevo_666

Meanwhile, all is clearly not well in leftie la-la land if the hard left are planning for Corbyns successor:
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/new-corbyn-heir-lined-up-as-party-fears-loss-of-100-seats-in-election-0psf2q9w6

rjsterry

Stevo 666 wrote:

Meanwhile, all is clearly not well in leftie la-la land if the hard left are planning for Corbyns successor:
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/new-corbyn-heir-lined-up-as-party-fears-loss-of-100-seats-in-election-0psf2q9w6

Hardly surprising given JC's net approval figures. I was just thinking earlier that one possible upside of Johnson pulling off his Brexit trick is that it would probably rid us of Corbyn, thus providing a slightly more useful opposition. Too much to hope for obviously.

Stevo_666

rjsterry wrote:

Stevo 666 wrote:

Meanwhile, all is clearly not well in leftie la-la land if the hard left are planning for Corbyns successor:
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/new-corbyn-heir-lined-up-as-party-fears-loss-of-100-seats-in-election-0psf2q9w6

Hardly surprising given JC's net approval figures. I was just thinking earlier that one possible upside of Johnson pulling off his Brexit trick is that it would probably rid us of Corbyn, thus providing a slightly more useful opposition. Too much to hope for obviously.

Every cloud etc

rjsterry

Stevo 666 wrote:

rjsterry wrote:

Stevo 666 wrote:

Meanwhile, all is clearly not well in leftie la-la land if the hard left are planning for Corbyns successor:
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/new-corbyn-heir-lined-up-as-party-fears-loss-of-100-seats-in-election-0psf2q9w6

Hardly surprising given JC's net approval figures. I was just thinking earlier that one possible upside of Johnson pulling off his Brexit trick is that it would probably rid us of Corbyn, thus providing a slightly more useful opposition. Too much to hope for obviously.

Every cloud etc

I've said previously that the Tories might not be in the utter mess they are in if there'd been an effective opposition to keep them focused. I know you're normally a fan of the benefits of market competition.

Stevo_666

rjsterry wrote:

Stevo 666 wrote:

rjsterry wrote:

Stevo 666 wrote:

Meanwhile, all is clearly not well in leftie la-la land if the hard left are planning for Corbyns successor:
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/new-corbyn-heir-lined-up-as-party-fears-loss-of-100-seats-in-election-0psf2q9w6

Hardly surprising given JC's net approval figures. I was just thinking earlier that one possible upside of Johnson pulling off his Brexit trick is that it would probably rid us of Corbyn, thus providing a slightly more useful opposition. Too much to hope for obviously.

Every cloud etc

I've said previously that the Tories might not be in the utter mess they are in if there'd been an effective opposition to keep them focused. I know you're normally a fan of the benefits of market competition.

More of a football match - you want the other lot to lose.

I still contest that it is likely the election of Corbyn has kept Labour out of power, so job's a good 'un.

rjsterry

Contend, surely? I don't follow football, but I'm led to believe no-one wants to watch a Premier League club play a pub team. We'll find out soon enough if the plan has worked but, there's a lot of your 'team' limping off the pitch.

coopster_the_1st

Diane Abbott to represent the opposition at PMQ's tomorrow. There is a very good chance this will be a car crash

TheBigBean

rjsterry wrote:

Contend, surely? I don't follow football, but I'm led to believe no-one wants to watch a Premier League club play a pub team. We'll find out soon enough if the plan has worked but, there's a lot of your 'team' limping off the pitch.

People want to watch a premier league team play a pub team away from home. Little interest the other way around. The reason being premier league teams are not used to playing on lower league pitches, so an upset is possible.

rjsterry

TheBigBean wrote:

rjsterry wrote:

Contend, surely? I don't follow football, but I'm led to believe no-one wants to watch a Premier League club play a pub team. We'll find out soon enough if the plan has worked but, there's a lot of your 'team' limping off the pitch.

People want to watch a premier league team play a pub team away from home. Little interest the other way around. The reason being premier league teams are not used to playing on lower league pitches, so an upset is possible.

Well there you go. I said I didn't follow football.

Stevo_666

Coopster the 1st wrote:

Diane Abbott to represent the opposition at PMQ's tomorrow. There is a very good chance this will be a car crash

rick_chasey

You do wonder if mocking her would be such a hobby horse if she was just a another pale stale male.

There are plenty more useless and thick politicians to mock.

tangled_metal

Francois!

Pross

Rick Chasey wrote:

You do wonder if mocking her would be such a hobby horse if she was just a another pale stale male.

There are plenty more useless and thick politicians to mock.

I think you're stretching there. She gets mocked because she turns up either with too little research or the inability to remember what she has learned. She plays the sexism / racism card herself when the problem is just that she is terrible at her job but is fortunate to represent a constituency where a win is all but guaranteed. She is a prime example of why Labour are looking so unelectable when the Tories are trying to offer them an open goal.