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Jez mon

I almost feel like the anti semitism row plays well for corbyn amongst his true believers, who can simply say its the mainstream media being bias against him.

Meanwhile others look at him and wonder when an honest attempt to see things from all sides just becomes blindly supporting the other side.

I find it hard to believe that he is a hardcore anti semitic loon of the type you might see in a Louis Theroux documentary however.

rjsterry

Jez mon wrote:

I almost feel like the anti semitism row plays well for corbyn amongst his true believers, who can simply say its the mainstream media being bias against him.

Meanwhile others look at him and wonder when an honest attempt to see things from all sides just becomes blindly supporting the other side.

I find it hard to believe that he is a hardcore anti semitic loon of the type you might see in a Louis Theroux documentary however.

The whole idea that it's a mainstream media/Blairite plot to unseat Jeremy is so much easier to live with than him not having the ability to overcome what is pretty standard fare for a leader of any party. If Corbyn was half the leader his followers think he is, he'd have sorted this immediately after the Chakrabarti report. Instead, the guy from whom even Momentum distanced themselves has just been reelected to Labour's NEC.

Based on his own statements, I'm not sure the man himself understands what antisemitism is. On the one hand he says that it has no place in the party and on the other he's making a speech in which he accuses British “Zionists” of having “no sense of English irony” despite having lived in the UK “all their lives”.

surrey_commuter

Jez mon wrote:

I almost feel like the anti semitism row plays well for corbyn amongst his true believers, who can simply say its the mainstream media being bias against him.

Meanwhile others look at him and wonder when an honest attempt to see things from all sides just becomes blindly supporting the other side.

I find it hard to believe that he is a hardcore anti semitic loon of the type you might see in a Louis Theroux documentary however.

He is obviously not genocidal but the hard left blames capitalism for all of life’s ills, they see Jews as being top of the capitalist tree. I imagine he and his supporters just want to strip them of their money, power and influence.

At the pinnacle of the Jewish hierarchy is the Rothschild family. If you have a strong stomach just Google the sh1te they believe about them.

Obviously the far right have issues with them as well.

shirley_basso

Well the Rothschilds have been notoriously well hedged throughout history, investing on both sides of any major conflict, military or otherwise.

rjsterry

Shirley Basso wrote:

Well the Rothschilds have been notoriously well hedged throughout history, investing on both sides of any major conflict, military or otherwise.

As have most of the big banking families. Only a few of them have Jewish roots.

surrey_commuter

Shirley Basso wrote:

Well the Rothschilds have been notoriously well hedged throughout history, investing on both sides of any major conflict, military or otherwise.

And we get to Waterloo. Do you really think the head of Rothschild’s rode a horse across the lowlands to the coast where he hired a fishing boat to England where he rode a horse to London so that he could buy lots of shares?

Why do people want to believe a fairy tale that is 200 years old?

shirley_basso

Didn't the family used to write letters in a hybrid (english-austrian) language when the children were sent to the 4 corners of Europe to discuss business etc while remaining secret.

It is possible to communicate without being present. Mail has been around for some time.

rjsterry

Surrey Commuter wrote:

Shirley Basso wrote:

Well the Rothschilds have been notoriously well hedged throughout history, investing on both sides of any major conflict, military or otherwise.

And we get to Waterloo. Do you really think the head of Rothschild’s rode a horse across the lowlands to the coast where he hired a fishing boat to England where he rode a horse to London so that he could buy lots of shares?

Why do people want to believe a fairy tale that is 200 years old?

Nathan Mayer Rothschild was already trading in London at the time of Waterloo. Given their position as a major banking family it would have been odd if they weren't involved in providing finance. They were just better at their job than other lenders.

I think we might be veering slightly off topic.

tangled_metal

So a Jewish family made a lot of money. Does being Jewish play into that fact? What is the mechanism? By that I mean is there something within the Jewish faith that creates great bankers?

It seems to me that there's been money lenders out of all religions but people obsess over Jewish money lenders. It has ever been so since Jesus confronted merchants in the temple I reckon. In other words it's a Christian based fear / conspiracy / persecution. Religion has a lot to answer for I guess.

surrey_commuter

rjsterry wrote:

Surrey Commuter wrote:

Shirley Basso wrote:

Well the Rothschilds have been notoriously well hedged throughout history, investing on both sides of any major conflict, military or otherwise.

And we get to Waterloo. Do you really think the head of Rothschild’s rode a horse across the lowlands to the coast where he hired a fishing boat to England where he rode a horse to London so that he could buy lots of shares?

Why do people want to believe a fairy tale that is 200 years old?

Nathan Mayer Rothschild was already trading in London at the time of Waterloo. Given their position as a major banking family it would have been odd if they weren't involved in providing finance. They were just better at their job than other lenders.

I think we might be veering slightly off topic.

But my point is that the Jews have been vilified/persecuted for centuries, culminating in an attempt at genocide. I think it insensitive and unreasonable for Corbyn and his cronies to stoke the fires.

surrey_commuter

Tangled Metal wrote:

So a Jewish family made a lot of money. Does being Jewish play into that fact? What is the mechanism? By that I mean is there something within the Jewish faith that creates great bankers?

It seems to me that there's been money lenders out of all religions but people obsess over Jewish money lenders. It has ever been so since Jesus confronted merchants in the temple I reckon. In other words it's a Christian based fear / conspiracy / persecution. Religion has a lot to answer for I guess.

The mechanism by which Jews make more money than other religions is that they are heartless, have no scruples and are immoral so making it easier to make money from exploiting the people.

rjsterry

Surrey Commuter wrote:

rjsterry wrote:

Surrey Commuter wrote:

Shirley Basso wrote:

Well the Rothschilds have been notoriously well hedged throughout history, investing on both sides of any major conflict, military or otherwise.

And we get to Waterloo. Do you really think the head of Rothschild’s rode a horse across the lowlands to the coast where he hired a fishing boat to England where he rode a horse to London so that he could buy lots of shares?

Why do people want to believe a fairy tale that is 200 years old?

Nathan Mayer Rothschild was already trading in London at the time of Waterloo. Given their position as a major banking family it would have been odd if they weren't involved in providing finance. They were just better at their job than other lenders.

I think we might be veering slightly off topic.

But my point is that the Jews have been vilified/persecuted for centuries, culminating in an attempt at genocide. I think it insensitive and unreasonable for Corbyn and his cronies to stoke the fires.

Absolutely. In particular they need to get over the idea that their ability to make valid criticism of the Israeli government is somehow restricted by the full IHRA definition.

shirley_basso

Surrey Commuter wrote:

Tangled Metal wrote:

So a Jewish family made a lot of money. Does being Jewish play into that fact? What is the mechanism? By that I mean is there something within the Jewish faith that creates great bankers?

It seems to me that there's been money lenders out of all religions but people obsess over Jewish money lenders. It has ever been so since Jesus confronted merchants in the temple I reckon. In other words it's a Christian based fear / conspiracy / persecution. Religion has a lot to answer for I guess.

The mechanism by which Jews make more money than other religions is that they are heartless, have no scruples and are immoral so making it easier to make money from exploiting the people.

I'm pretty sure that comes under the definition of anti semitism by anyone's books.

I was under the impression that the main reason is historically (100s years ago), jews were forbidden from money lending to other jews, but could lend to other religions. On the other hand all other religions were explicity forbidden. That has changed a lot in recent history, with the exception of Islam where usury is still generally not permitted, so there are mechanisms to work around (some more blatant than others).

tangled_metal

Wasn't SC stating the views of antisemites but necessarily the views SC holds? It was kind of in your face statement which could have been taken as literal statement of views.

shirley_basso

I did think it came across a little strong!

john80

I have had a read of the definition for anti-Semitism and some of the examples of which one is below.

◾Drawing comparisons of contemporary Israeli policy to that of the Nazis.

So it would seem that it is OK to say that moving Palestinians from land they have long held and shooting them when they protest is pretty shitty behaviour. However it would seem that then comparing this to some of the early action of the Nazis is anti-Semitism even though the early actions of the Nazis rounding up Jews and remove their property, assets and move them to another area so that the could then later be rounded up for mass execution is similar to some historic Israel state moves. So you can complain about Israel's actions but you have to do it from a basis of human rights abuses or non compliance with international law and not draw any relationship between Israel's actions today and those of the Nazis documented by history.

But hey for a nation that has around 21% of Arabs living within the mainly Jewish community I can't imagine for a second that they are subject to any discrimination at the hands of the Jewish state. I mean 8 out of the 10 poorest cities are mainly Arabic and they have their own school system.

surrey_commuter

Shirley Basso wrote:

I did think it came across a little strong!

it did feel wrong writing that on the train.

it was an explanation for why people believe that Jews are better at making money

surrey_commuter

john80 wrote:

I have had a read of the definition for anti-Semitism and some of the examples of which one is below.

◾Drawing comparisons of contemporary Israeli policy to that of the Nazis.

So it would seem that it is OK to say that moving Palestinians from land they have long held and shooting them when they protest is pretty sh!tty behaviour. However it would seem that then comparing this to some of the early action of the Nazis is anti-Semitism even though the early actions of the Nazis rounding up Jews and remove their property, assets and move them to another area so that the could then later be rounded up for mass execution is similar to some historic Israel state moves. So you can complain about Israel's actions but you have to do it from a basis of human rights abuses or non compliance with international law and not draw any relationship between Israel's actions today and those of the Nazis documented by history.

But hey for a nation that has around 21% of Arabs living within the mainly Jewish community I can't imagine for a second that they are subject to any discrimination at the hands of the Jewish state. I mean 8 out of the 10 poorest cities are mainly Arabic and they have their own school system.

I concede I know little about the history of Israel so can you point me to a link where they have rounded people up for the purpose of mass execution

The Nazi's made a serious attempt at genocide. Is that comparison really a fair one with the situation in Israel? could you and others not find more appropriate comparisons?

maybe we could rank appalling behaviours and then agree where Israel would place? here are some in no particular order
Tamils in Sri Lanka
Native American Indians
Blacks in modern day USA
Apartheid in S. Africa
Aborigines in Australia
English in Ireland
Belgium and the Congo
English in India
Nazis and the Jews

tangled_metal

Sorry to be hyper critical SC but that list grates with my pedantic side. You've listed victims and perpetrators but without indicating which is which. Some are obvious the Tamils are victims in Sri Lanka but then you later list English in Ireland and occurs. Are the English the victims in Ireland and India? English is listed in the same order as Tamils which implies they're in the same position of being victims.

Sorry for being pedantic over this.

surrey_commuter

Tangled Metal wrote:

Sorry to be hyper critical SC but that list grates with my pedantic side. You've listed victims and perpetrators but without indicating which is which. Some are obvious the Tamils are victims in Sri Lanka but then you later list English in Ireland and occurs. Are the English the victims in Ireland and India? English is listed in the same order as Tamils which implies they're in the same position of being victims.

Sorry for being pedantic over this.

fair point - how about "English Rule in..."?

tangled_metal

Pedantry wins again!

Seriously though, my first thought was to ask how the English were or are being persecuted by the Irish. Only for a split second of course.

pblakeney

Concentration camps were invented* in England to deal with Jews.
Bringing us full circle in the off topic debate.

*As I was told it in York.

rjsterry

PBlakeney wrote:

Concentration camps were invented* in England to deal with Jews.
Bringing us full circle in the off topic debate.

*As I was told it in York.

Debatable. Something pretty close to a concentration camp was used in the American Civil War, but the British did use them in the Second Boer War.

York does have a particularly dark history relating to antisemitism, though.

http://www.historyofyork.org.uk/themes/ ... 0-massacre

Ben6899

rjsterry wrote:

PBlakeney wrote:

Concentration camps were invented* in England to deal with Jews.
Bringing us full circle in the off topic debate.

*As I was told it in York.

Debatable. Something pretty close to a concentration camp was used in the American Civil War, but the British did use them in the Second Boer War.

York does have a particularly dark history relating to antisemitism, though.

http://www.historyofyork.org.uk/themes/ ... 0-massacre

Although it was probably referred to as something else then. The term "anti-Semitism" is a relatively new one (19C?), right?

Sorry, just being pedantic. :-)

For all its glory, York has seen some incredibly bloody happenings over the years!

john80

Surrey Commuter wrote:

john80 wrote:

I have had a read of the definition for anti-Semitism and some of the examples of which one is below.

◾Drawing comparisons of contemporary Israeli policy to that of the Nazis.

So it would seem that it is OK to say that moving Palestinians from land they have long held and shooting them when they protest is pretty sh!tty behaviour. However it would seem that then comparing this to some of the early action of the Nazis is anti-Semitism even though the early actions of the Nazis rounding up Jews and remove their property, assets and move them to another area so that the could then later be rounded up for mass execution is similar to some historic Israel state moves. So you can complain about Israel's actions but you have to do it from a basis of human rights abuses or non compliance with international law and not draw any relationship between Israel's actions today and those of the Nazis documented by history.

But hey for a nation that has around 21% of Arabs living within the mainly Jewish community I can't imagine for a second that they are subject to any discrimination at the hands of the Jewish state. I mean 8 out of the 10 poorest cities are mainly Arabic and they have their own school system.

I concede I know little about the history of Israel so can you point me to a link where they have rounded people up for the purpose of mass execution

The Nazi's made a serious attempt at genocide. Is that comparison really a fair one with the situation in Israel? could you and others not find more appropriate comparisons?

maybe we could rank appalling behaviours and then agree where Israel would place? here are some in no particular order
Tamils in Sri Lanka
Native American Indians
Blacks in modern day USA
Apartheid in S. Africa
Aborigines in Australia
English in Ireland
Belgium and the Congo
English in India
Nazis and the Jews

Israel has not gone fully down the route of the Nazis however the removal of a Arab population from their land and assets as per the use of "early" above is comparable to "early" Nazis actions. This comparison is anti-Semitism by the definition quoted. Israel has carried out these acts repeatedly and then shown severe discrimination against Arabs but yet goes unchecked.

Jewish people are in a unique position of being famously persecuted then having a state created for them and then using this to then persecute Arabs all within the last 60-70 years. Whilst the discrimination of Jewish people around the world for the actions of the Israel state is wrong we should not be shy in calling Israel out when they pursue actions that continue to inflict damage to the lives of a significant proportion of their own population through the ideology of a religion.

On one hand you are right though. Is Israel's actions in removing a Arab population and discriminating against them any better or worse than say the persecution of Indian Americans or Australia's indigenous population. The only difference it would seem to me is that it is happening now.

rjsterry

How does making (pretty shaky) comparisons to the actions of Nazi Germany assist criticism of elements of Israeli government policy? Or more to the point how does it help the people population affected by these government actions?

surrey_commuter

rjsterry wrote:

How does making (pretty shaky) comparisons to the actions of Nazi Germany assist criticism of elements of Israeli government policy? Or more to the point how does it help the people population affected by these government actions?

100% agree.

John88 if you remove your first para you have a good argument, with it you lose a lot of credibility

shirley_basso

Making comparisons of Trump to the early actions of Nazi Germany was also pretty common in the Trump thread.

This isn't meant to critisize as I can't remember the exact posters at the time, but it goes to show that a comparison is often drawn to early Nazi actions when it appears the leader is embarking upon/trying to embark upon a programme of ethnic cleansing, directly (genocide) or indirectly (removal and institutional discrimination & persecution)

rjsterry

Shirley Basso wrote:

Making comparisons of Trump to the early actions of Nazi Germany was also pretty common in the Trump thread.

This isn't meant to critisize as I can't remember the exact posters at the time, but it goes to show that a comparison is often drawn to early Nazi actions when it appears the leader is embarking upon/trying to embark upon a programme of ethnic cleansing, directly (genocide) or indirectly (removal and institutional discrimination & persecution)

As I recall that assertion was pretty robustly challenged. In any case, I'm pretty sure Trump isn't Jewish; the point is that if you are setting a standard of what constitutes antisemitism for a political party, that comparison is skating far too close to the line.

Stevo_666

Looks like leftiebollox is here to stay for now, according to Tony Blair:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-45438855

So no point voting for New Old Labour and hoping that they'll reform and become more moderate. Wonder if this is the beginning of a breakaway 'SDP MkII' type party?