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surrey_commuter

rjsterry wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

The bigger issue is pay is not set to return to its 2008 peak until the middle of the next decade; I.e. a 17-year pay downturn.

That's not gonna give you any political room to deal with the deficit, let alone the debt.

I have to say I don't really understand the attitude of helplessness around the productivity issue. Sure, it's not an easy one to solve, but other countries have managed to tackle this.

how does a Govt improve productivity?

rolf_f

Surrey Commuter wrote:

rjsterry wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

The bigger issue is pay is not set to return to its 2008 peak until the middle of the next decade; I.e. a 17-year pay downturn.

That's not gonna give you any political room to deal with the deficit, let alone the debt.

I have to say I don't really understand the attitude of helplessness around the productivity issue. Sure, it's not an easy one to solve, but other countries have managed to tackle this.

how does a Govt improve productivity?

By cancelling Brexit?

kingstongraham

Surrey Commuter wrote:

rjsterry wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

The bigger issue is pay is not set to return to its 2008 peak until the middle of the next decade; I.e. a 17-year pay downturn.

That's not gonna give you any political room to deal with the deficit, let alone the debt.

I have to say I don't really understand the attitude of helplessness around the productivity issue. Sure, it's not an easy one to solve, but other countries have managed to tackle this.

how does a Govt improve productivity?

Make non work related internet use at work illegal.

surrey_commuter

KingstonGraham wrote:

Surrey Commuter wrote:

rjsterry wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

The bigger issue is pay is not set to return to its 2008 peak until the middle of the next decade; I.e. a 17-year pay downturn.

That's not gonna give you any political room to deal with the deficit, let alone the debt.

I have to say I don't really understand the attitude of helplessness around the productivity issue. Sure, it's not an easy one to solve, but other countries have managed to tackle this.

how does a Govt improve productivity?

Make non work related internet use at work illegal.

whatever do you mean?

rjsterry

Surrey Commuter wrote:

rjsterry wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

The bigger issue is pay is not set to return to its 2008 peak until the middle of the next decade; I.e. a 17-year pay downturn.

That's not gonna give you any political room to deal with the deficit, let alone the debt.

I have to say I don't really understand the attitude of helplessness around the productivity issue. Sure, it's not an easy one to solve, but other countries have managed to tackle this.

how does a Govt improve productivity?

Don't know, but just sort of hoping it will get better by itself is a bit of a long shot.

mamba80

It ll be interesting to see what the GOV proposes in its industrial strategy to be launched next week.

there does need to be longer term investment decisions involving both private and public sector, rather than "oh lets build a railway etc here"

Perhaps a population that sees falling wages and living standards isnt going to be enthused to work particularly well, seems amazing that it takes a french car worker 4 days to do what a british worker does in 5, you d have thought that these places have similar machinery? they ve a 35 hr week and we work the longest hours in europe.

but unless we drop brexit, whatever we do its not going to work, we ll have a shrinking eco and companies dont invest in those.

rjsterry

mamba80 wrote:

It ll be interesting to see what the GOV proposes in its industrial strategy to be launched next week.

there does need to be longer term investment decisions involving both private and public sector, rather than "oh lets build a railway etc here"

Perhaps a population that sees falling wages and living standards isnt going to be enthused to work particularly well, seems amazing that it takes a french car worker 4 days to do what a british worker does in 5, you d have thought that these places have similar machinery? they ve a 35 hr week and we work the longest hours in europe.

but unless we drop brexit, whatever we do its not going to work, we ll have a shrinking eco and companies dont invest in those.

It's not looking very hopeful - you'd think there would be a bit more in the budget about R&D if they were really trying to make some changes.

By the way, how is building a major rail link not long term investment involving public and private sectors? Everyone moans about the lack of investment in rail infrastructure, and then when the government goes ahead with a 20 year project, it's all suddenly too expensive and not what we want. HS2 is less than half a percent of government spending.

Also, I'm not sure car manufacturing is the best example - that's one area where we do have pretty good productivity. Lots of room for improvement elsewhere, though.

tangled_metal

Part of the problem is highlighted by Mamba80 's post, but not perhaps in the way intended. I quote.

Perhaps a population that sees falling wages and living standards isnt going to be enthused to work particularly well,

Reminds me of a piece of advice early in my working life.

Noone is going to give you more money if you don't do something to earn it.

Basically, the idea is you put the effort in to reach the point that you are worth getting better pay. It seems to me there could be an attitude problem in the UK. One that says give me the money and I'll make the improvements in my work. Not the other way around. Would you give somebody more money on the off chance they'll step up and earn the extra afterwards?

I'm not saying that's the problem. I just wonder if it's a part of it. There's certainly a sense ppl at my work believes the bosses owe them more than they're getting. Productivity is very, very poor.

I've been there less than 10 years (ppl tend to stay there for long time or used to) but I've seen a change. Operators are doing anything from 75% down to 50% of what operators did when I first joined. Not every operator, there are some very hard working ppl.

Among them you get a few who have this bad attitude that the world owes them more. They start doing less, get away with it because of weak management (another factor that has been identified as a possible contributor) and take even more liberties. Then eventuality you get a few bad seeds. The decent workers start to ask why they put the work in and get the same money as those who slack off. It breeds malaise in the workplace and productivity drops.

How to change? Please tell me because it's not just bad management. It's not just bad attitude. In fact there's a huge range of factors. Many no different to other countries including France. However there just feels like it really is worse in the UK. Sick man if Europe. If we are still in Europe that is. What with city of culture matter I guess we're leaving EU and Europe too. Sailing off into the Atlantic perhaps.

surrey_commuter

rjsterry wrote:

Surrey Commuter wrote:

rjsterry wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

The bigger issue is pay is not set to return to its 2008 peak until the middle of the next decade; I.e. a 17-year pay downturn.

That's not gonna give you any political room to deal with the deficit, let alone the debt.

I have to say I don't really understand the attitude of helplessness around the productivity issue. Sure, it's not an easy one to solve, but other countries have managed to tackle this.

how does a Govt improve productivity?

Don't know, but just sort of hoping it will get better by itself is a bit of a long shot.

The only thing I can think the Govt could do to improve productivity would be to radically strengthen the employment laws making it virtually impossible to sack anybody coupled with a doubling of employment taxes.

This would encourage companies to invest in technology rather than employing people and so improve productivity

rjsterry

Surrey Commuter wrote:

rjsterry wrote:

Surrey Commuter wrote:

rjsterry wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

The bigger issue is pay is not set to return to its 2008 peak until the middle of the next decade; I.e. a 17-year pay downturn.

That's not gonna give you any political room to deal with the deficit, let alone the debt.

I have to say I don't really understand the attitude of helplessness around the productivity issue. Sure, it's not an easy one to solve, but other countries have managed to tackle this.

how does a Govt improve productivity?

Don't know, but just sort of hoping it will get better by itself is a bit of a long shot.

The only thing I can think the Govt could do to improve productivity would be to radically strengthen the employment laws making it virtually impossible to sack anybody coupled with a doubling of employment taxes.

This would encourage companies to invest in technology rather than employing people and so improve productivity

rick_chasey

Works for France .

Per head they work 4 days a week for the British 5.

surrey_commuter

Rick Chasey wrote:

Works for France .

Per head they work 4 days a week for the British 5.

Some of them work

rjsterry

Surrey Commuter wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

Works for France .

Per head they work 4 days a week for the British 5.

Some of them work

Might be more useful to look at the bits of our economy that do have good productivity.

rick_chasey

rjsterry wrote:

Surrey Commuter wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

Works for France .

Per head they work 4 days a week for the British 5.

Some of them work

Might be more useful to look at the bits of our economy that do have good productivity.

That part's had a bit of a dip since 2008.... Arguably a big piece of the problem.

tangled_metal

Isn't that automotive? I work in automotive. Well, I'm working on here right now! I tell you, turn off internet during the day. Productivity might go up for non - shift based shirkers.

Now I'm off to work on the bargains thread. I need to see what yellow monstrosity danb has found cheap, bought several sizes of and is waiting to get them so he can return them again.

surrey_commuter

When the Govt talks about improving productivity you should mentally park it with their plans to close fiscal gaps through efficiency gains and cracking down on benefits/tax cheats.

Stevo_666

Meanwhile in leftie la-la land, John McDonnell repeatedly refuses to answer questions on spending, debt and interest cost. Wonder why?
https://www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/shadow-chancellor-john-mcdonnell-fails-to-explain-spending-figures-because-thats-what-ipads-and-a3699386.html

tangled_metal

Has he actually admitted to not being able to make his financial plans add up?

Seriously. I was half asleep / not with it but I'm sure I heard a report saying it. Possibly a newspaper review late at night or morning radio 4 I can't remember. It's it true? Or an amusing figment if my imagination or wishful thinking. Surely such an admission would end his job as chief labour economic spokesman and main strategist!?

rick_chasey

Tangled Metal wrote:

Isn't that automotive? I work in automotive. Well, I'm working on here right now! I tell you, turn off internet during the day. Productivity might go up for non - shift based shirkers.

Now I'm off to work on the bargains thread. I need to see what yellow monstrosity danb has found cheap, bought several sizes of and is waiting to get them so he can return them again.

No, FS.

When you're not illegally selling PPI or not mis-pricing massive tranches of MBS, and suddenly you can't be leveraged up to the nuts, it's harder to make money.

Stevo_666

Tangled Metal wrote:

Has he actually admitted to not being able to make his financial plans add up?

Seriously. I was half asleep / not with it but I'm sure I heard a report saying it. Possibly a newspaper review late at night or morning radio 4 I can't remember. It's it true? Or an amusing figment if my imagination or wishful thinking. Surely such an admission would end his job as chief labour economic spokesman and main strategist!?

Not explicitly, but his repeated failure to answer the questions tells us what we need to know.

What I'm not sure about is whether he really believes his own guff that it will all pay for itself/be funded out of tax, or whether he realises the truth but knows that he can't say it publically.

surrey_commuter

Stevo 666 wrote:

Tangled Metal wrote:

Has he actually admitted to not being able to make his financial plans add up?

Seriously. I was half asleep / not with it but I'm sure I heard a report saying it. Possibly a newspaper review late at night or morning radio 4 I can't remember. It's it true? Or an amusing figment if my imagination or wishful thinking. Surely such an admission would end his job as chief labour economic spokesman and main strategist!?

Not explicitly, but his repeated failure to answer the questions tells us what we need to know.

What I'm not sure about is whether he really believes his own guff that it will all pay for itself/be funded out of tax, or whether he realises the truth but knows that he can't say it publically.

the ironic thing is that with the Tories lurching ever leftwards and pursuing an interventionist tax/spend/borrow policy that if Labour had a Blairite leadership they could be in power for decades

surrey_commuter

Rick Chasey wrote:

Tangled Metal wrote:

Isn't that automotive? I work in automotive. Well, I'm working on here right now! I tell you, turn off internet during the day. Productivity might go up for non - shift based shirkers.

Now I'm off to work on the bargains thread. I need to see what yellow monstrosity danb has found cheap, bought several sizes of and is waiting to get them so he can return them again.

No, FS.

When you're not illegally selling PPI or not mis-pricing massive tranches of MBS, and suddenly you can't be leveraged up to the nuts, it's harder to make money.

I instinctively agree with your prognosis but have seen no data to back this up and have no real understanding of what productivity is or how it is measured. Yet still I know that the Govt can't improve it.

Stevo_666

Surrey Commuter wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

Works for France .

Per head they work 4 days a week for the British 5.

Some of them work

Quite.

France is hardly a good example of how to do stuff right economically. Persistently high unemployment, not exactly high growth, large and growing gap between state spending and tax revenues, low inward investment levels. Etc.

Stevo_666

Surrey Commuter wrote:

Stevo 666 wrote:

Tangled Metal wrote:

Has he actually admitted to not being able to make his financial plans add up?

Seriously. I was half asleep / not with it but I'm sure I heard a report saying it. Possibly a newspaper review late at night or morning radio 4 I can't remember. It's it true? Or an amusing figment if my imagination or wishful thinking. Surely such an admission would end his job as chief labour economic spokesman and main strategist!?

Not explicitly, but his repeated failure to answer the questions tells us what we need to know.

What I'm not sure about is whether he really believes his own guff that it will all pay for itself/be funded out of tax, or whether he realises the truth but knows that he can't say it publically.

the ironic thing is that with the Tories lurching ever leftwards and pursuing an interventionist tax/spend/borrow policy that if Labour had a Blairite leadership they could be in power for decades

That's a very big if.

Bring back Maggie

tangled_metal

Didn't Blair want a come back a few months back? Hmmm! Is he looking better yet or still too toxic?

surrey_commuter

Tangled Metal wrote:

Didn't Blair want a come back a few months back? Hmmm! Is he looking better yet or still too toxic?

Too toxic for Labour but would look Centrist in today's Tory Party. I would suggest getting him back in tandem with El Gordo but don't think Tories would buy into that level of fiscal prudence.

It does stagger me that we can so calmly sign up to budget deficits until 2030. Does anybody really think we won't have a recession before then which will take debt soaring past 100% of GDP?

rick_chasey

Surrey Commuter wrote:

Tangled Metal wrote:

Didn't Blair want a come back a few months back? Hmmm! Is he looking better yet or still too toxic?

Too toxic for Labour but would look Centrist in today's Tory Party. I would suggest getting him back in tandem with El Gordo but don't think Tories would buy into that level of fiscal prudence.

It does stagger me that we can so calmly sign up to budget deficits until 2030. Does anybody really think we won't have a recession before then which will take debt soaring past 100% of GDP?

Putting the cart before the horse.

Can't do jack sh!t without raising wages.

You cut even more aggressively, and you'll end up replacing the govt with one that decides to spend twice as much.

Waaaay too much focus on debt and nothing on productivity for two decades.

The reason the deficits are pushed out to 2030 is because of the change in OBR productivity predictions.

pblakeney

Labour going right? Conservative going left?
Sounds like they want to be Liberal but can't admit as much.

Stevo_666

Rick Chasey wrote:

Surrey Commuter wrote:

Tangled Metal wrote:

Didn't Blair want a come back a few months back? Hmmm! Is he looking better yet or still too toxic?

Too toxic for Labour but would look Centrist in today's Tory Party. I would suggest getting him back in tandem with El Gordo but don't think Tories would buy into that level of fiscal prudence.

It does stagger me that we can so calmly sign up to budget deficits until 2030. Does anybody really think we won't have a recession before then which will take debt soaring past 100% of GDP?

Putting the cart before the horse.

Can't do jack sh!t without raising wages.

You cut even more aggressively, and you'll end up replacing the govt with one that decides to spend twice as much.

Waaaay too much focus on debt and nothing on productivity for two decades.

The reason the deficits are pushed out to 2030 is because of the change in OBR productivity predictions.

I still haven't seen anything from anyone about the root causes of the problem or how to solve it (not just you btw). My other point is I thought that you need to raise productivity to raise wages - your post above implies that it is the other way around.

rick_chasey

same sh!t stevo.

Raising wages is raising productivity.