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An interesting paragraph from Finchy's link to the 41 economists.
The intervention comes as the Corbyn campaign reveals that a Labour government led by the MP for Islington North would reserve the right to renationalise Royal Bank of Scotland and other public assets, “with either no compensation or with any undervaluation deducted from any compensation for renationalisation”
So there you go. Anyone who thought about buying shares as an investment faces having them taken away like candy from a baby.
The Shropshire Chavez.
Fairly sure that means they'd still pay market rate - just not a premium above it to compensate for nationalisation.0 -
An interesting paragraph from Finchy's link to the 41 economists.
The intervention comes as the Corbyn campaign reveals that a Labour government led by the MP for Islington North would reserve the right to renationalise Royal Bank of Scotland and other public assets, “with either no compensation or with any undervaluation deducted from any compensation for renationalisation”
So there you go. Anyone who thought about buying shares as an investment faces having them taken away like candy from a baby.
The Shropshire Chavez.
Fairly sure that means they'd still pay market rate - just not a premium above it to compensate for nationalisation.
I've reread it Rick and I don't think it means that at all. They speak of NO compensation or best case scenario a REDUCED rate for the shares.
The Shadow Chancellor says of Corbyn's proposals
‘I have been very critical of the timing of the Government’s RBS sell-off, and of the fire sale of the Royal Mail, but it is misleading to suggest that once these assets have been sold they can be magicked back into public ownership for free without consequences.
The crucial word there being 'free'
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3208258/Corbyn-seize-shares-RBS-Royal-Mail-sold-Tories-no-compensation-order-renationalise-state-assets.html0 -
Yeah. Compensation for being forced to sell. They'd still be bought.
I'm not in favour of it, but I'll call BS when I see it.0 -
If my house is in the way of a new motorway, I get compensation for being forced to sell it. So it's market rate + compensation .0
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Sorry Frank, my bad. I get what you were saying now.You mis-read Stevo
Frightening the Labour party to death? Yes.
Frightening the Tory party to death?
This thread suggests otherwise. Have a look on twitter at #toriesforcorbyn and see them quaking in their boots.
When I wrote Labour/Tory light I was infering that Labour are Tory light.
I suppose that when you are so far over to the far left of the political spectrum, two parties that are some way apart but a very long way away from your views may look similar you. Funny that, as I never see the Tories as 'Labour light'
"I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]0 -
41 economists sign letter denying that Corbyn's economic plan would be a disaster.
Nobel prize winning economist supports Corbyn's anti-austerity policies.
Alex Salmond had 2 Nobel Prize winning economists Professor Joseph Stiglitz and Professor Sir James Mirrlees on his Scottish Government’s Fiscal Commission Working Group supporting currency union as best for rUK.
Didn't mean Jack Sh1t.
It might have been best from an economic viewpoint, but politically unacceptable. However, seeing as this scenario has never been tested, we'll never know whether it's feasible in practice.
My point was just because the opinion comes from a NP winner, it doesn't automatically make it fact. Hopefully we will never get to test the free spending theories of the likes of Corbyn either.
And my point is that we're not talking about going off into some completely unconventional guaranteed disaster. As I have already said, what Corbyn has proposed so far is just mainstream economics in many other countries.0 -
They are not really bogeymen, more harmless loons - harmless because they are unelectable.I think you are relying too much on history Stevo, the hard left had long since buggered of to places like TUSC and it seems to be a bogeyman that exists largely in your head. Corbyn is attracting support from people who think that loading students up with £10000's worth of debt isn't great for them or the long term future of the country, as well as creating such a housing shortage so that people are nearly 40 before they can afford to buy. Addressing those sort of issues really aren't radical left wing ideas, not even close, it's just how things have shifted.
If you think that enough people will turn to the hard left to solve the issue of high house prices or whatever other issues people face, in sufficient number to win the next election, that"s up to you. I don't think so, hence this threaf....
Really? Corbyn has been an MP since 1983, long enough for his electorate to see through him and his "loony policies".
there is alot of real and perceived unfairness in this country, whether he can galvanise enough support for a GE ... who knows.0 -
Anti Austerity politics is fairly legit politics and not all the extreme.
I would imagine (not being all that in with Labour voters) that that is the main interest in Corbyn - since all other candidates were just 'austerity light' which we know isn't a vote winner, and loses you your base if you're a labour candidate.
Labour made a big mistake by going along with the mediamacro line and saying things like 'we made a mistake with the debt' which is obviously nuts.
What they should have said is 'we spent too much time listening to normally Tory city types who aren't what we are about saying that deregulating financial services and feeding a property boom wasn't a good idea - we still think the UK is a rich place, and can afford to spend its way out. We just need to be a bit leaner'.
Then again, I'm not a Labour voter, so maybe i've got it wrong.
But that's the message I'd be making if I was running for Labour leadership.0 -
What they should have said is 'we spent too much time listening to normally Tory city types who aren't what we are about saying that deregulating financial services and feeding a property boom wasn't a good idea .
Shouldn't that be "was"?0 -
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I did.0
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Awful weather today. What's Corbyn going to do about that?0
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Weather is not too bad here so I think he has fixed it for us. We are in the North West (the socialist North). Although I live in the next constituency which remained Blue so I think I will ride into the same weather as you on the way home!!0
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There's a lot of perceived unfairness in every countries. They usually don't lurch to the far left to solve these perceived problems. If you really think Corbyn's policies are credible and deliverable then as they say in The Matrix, 'You take the blue pill, you wake up in your bed and you believe what you want to believe.'
They are not really bogeymen, more harmless loons - harmless because they are unelectable.I think you are relying too much on history Stevo, the hard left had long since buggered of to places like TUSC and it seems to be a bogeyman that exists largely in your head. Corbyn is attracting support from people who think that loading students up with £10000's worth of debt isn't great for them or the long term future of the country, as well as creating such a housing shortage so that people are nearly 40 before they can afford to buy. Addressing those sort of issues really aren't radical left wing ideas, not even close, it's just how things have shifted.
If you think that enough people will turn to the hard left to solve the issue of high house prices or whatever other issues people face, in sufficient number to win the next election, that"s up to you. I don't think so, hence this threaf....
Really? Corbyn has been an MP since 1983, long enough for his electorate to see through him and his "loony policies".
there is alot of real and perceived unfairness in this country, whether he can galvanise enough support for a GE ... who knows. "I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]0 -
There's a lot of perceived unfairness in every countries. They usually don't lurch to the far left to solve these perceived problems. If you really think Corbyn's policies are credible and deliverable then as they say in The Matrix, 'You take the blue pill, you wake up in your bed and you believe what you want to believe.'
Compared to europe, corbyn wouldnt be considered far left at all, on the other hand Cameron would be considered fairly right of centre, if not far right.
you paint him out to be an old style communist but as said, if this is the case, why does he continually get voted back in? something many labour right of centre mp's don't.
the "fairness" or lack of, in this country isnt all percieved either.
the country needs a choice and a strong opposition, the differences between say Liz Kendal and David Cameron are paper thin - labour have lost 2 elections having a more centralist leader.
Cameron has no answer to extreme rent rises, a failing nhs or transport infrructure and no answer to a shabby education system or even recognise there is anything wrong but why would he? he lives in a bubble of private schooling and wealth, so, our local comp is in special measures and thats an academy, so how is making all schools one going to help? he is an out of touch idiot.
His plans on building more housing are just talk and with net migration running at 0.5m per year, how is right to buy going to help anyone struggling to house themselves? infact will reduce social housing stock.
To me Stevo, it is the right that are on that blue pill and xxxxing the rest of us with it :evil:0 -
You can see why he's more popular than his rivals.
Can anyone tell me what any of the other Labour leadership candidates stand for?
I can just about work out Liz Kendal is an old school Blairite, and that's about it. The rest just mulch into one another with guff platitudes.
Corbyn is at least identifiable and has genuine conviction and can articulate that, which is, unfortunately, a rare commodity within all parties.
Cameron is a better articulator but certainly lacks conviction (though his regular flip flops haven't hurt him too much), and George Osbourne has improved now he has a bit of swagger (as opposed to this low point) but then, he doesn't need the conviction as a) his party is on the right side of public & press mood (hence the prevalence of media macro which, despairingly, dominated the election) and there's b) no charismatic or articulate alternative. So if people throw mud at Cameron, his response is basically 'well it's either me oooor? erm.. who?'.
Separately, that's a bigger issue for the Uk generally. Things work better when there is decent opposition to keep those in power sharp, but Stevo's a little too selfish to see it that way. 0 -
Is Corbyn decent opposition? We all have our opinions on that.
One thing mentioned earlier about rent rises and Cameron having no answer struck me as interesting in light of a R4 piece where they looked into German style rent control. It seems restricting rent to a percentage above the average (or whatever the exact German system is) does not work as well as the theory. People trying to take up places are experiencing higher rises than the law allows but when they confront the landlord/agent the property just goes off the market and is likely rented out at the rate the agent originally set.
Many German cities are still encountering high rent rises which is more serious I think since Germany AFAIK is still at a higher percentage of the population renting compared to the UK. Seems a lot of countries are still trying to find that magic bullet to solve their problems. The UK is no different so painting it as having more problems because it is a Tory led government is just political posturing to score points. Seems we have some New Labour politicians in here after all, Blair will be proud!!0 -
Is Corbyn decent opposition? We all have our opinions on that.
One thing mentioned earlier about rent rises and Cameron having no answer struck me as interesting in light of a R4 piece where they looked into German style rent control. It seems restricting rent to a percentage above the average (or whatever the exact German system is) does not work as well as the theory. People trying to take up places are experiencing higher rises than the law allows but when they confront the landlord/agent the property just goes off the market and is likely rented out at the rate the agent originally set.
Many German cities are still encountering high rent rises which is more serious I think since Germany AFAIK is still at a higher percentage of the population renting compared to the UK. Seems a lot of countries are still trying to find that magic bullet to solve their problems. The UK is no different so painting it as having more problems because it is a Tory led government is just political posturing to score points. Seems we have some New Labour politicians in here after all, Blair will be proud!!
i ve lived in Sweden and have friends there, big problems with rent control in Sockholm, true BUT for those in the system, the rents are more affordable.
as for points scoring, we crossed swords on this before, i m a labour supporter and dislike the tories, so yes, i do see it as a tory problem, they are in power, they have the means to at least try and sort out the issues facing the country but they dont.
More social housing surely needs to be looked at? basically going back to the council housing of the 60s and 70's it worked then, there is no reason why it wouldnt work now, be it purely a state solution or involving private sector.
Leaving it all to market forces, isnt working either.0 -
Not sure he's decent opposition no.
If labour won all of the SNP and lib dem votes next election they still won't win.
They need to win Tory votes and Corbyn won't do that. Fanciful to say otherwise.0 -
These problems seem never to be sorted out no matter which party gets in. I suppose some would blame the Tories and the Tory-lites for this situation and wish for the Left wing to get into power hoping they will be able to sort it out. In some ways I would be interested to see a left wing majority government just to see what they could actually do.
Say a left wing government with the majority of Blair in '97. In some ways that would be an interesting experiment on the power of governments to actually make big changes. I am sure the left wing would want to but I just have my doubts as to whether that would work out. It would be interesting but a shame for the country as I do feel both the left and the right of the political spectrum cock things up just as badly but in different ways. Not that I wish to see just vanilla centre ground parties running the country from now on but it seems that is kind of what works.
We will see what will happen but Corbyn just needs to be elected leader of Labour first before all this can happen. Each step at a time.
BTW if I am brutally honest I do not really care which end of the political spectrum gets in if they make my life better through their actions. I admit that I am completely selfish in that the only things that matter to me are me and mine. My family and our life. Make it better I support you, make it worse and you're a bunch of cnuts. I wonder if anyone else here are basically honest enough to admit that on a basic level they too are out for themselves. Anyone else honest enough for that? BTW that is as much the way of the right as the left so do not go holier than though about socialism being about the society and for all. They always end up being about their own. In whatever system you always end up with haves and have nots whether capitalism or communism. Human nature will out. I am a cynic at heart.0 -
BTW if I am brutally honest I do not really care which end of the political spectrum gets in if they make my life better through their actions. I admit that I am completely selfish in that the only things that matter to me are me and mine. My family and our life. Make it better I support you, make it worse and you're a bunch of cnuts. I wonder if anyone else here are basically honest enough to admit that on a basic level they too are out for themselves. Anyone else honest enough for that? BTW that is as much the way of the right as the left so do not go holier than though about socialism being about the society and for all. They always end up being about their own. In whatever system you always end up with haves and have nots whether capitalism or communism. Human nature will out. I am a cynic at heart.
i dont think ike that at all, i ve lived in a far more socialist country than the UK and its much better, i ve also lived in S Africa, where people think like you and its bl00dy awful.
there is a balance, we dont need far right or left policies, just a better sense of society.
Corbyn wont win any committed tory voters, true but as i said neither did Brown or Miliband, unfortunately too many people think like yourself and care only for their immediate needs and dont think about the bigger picture.0 -
I have voted against my own self interest in lieu of what I perceive to be for the good of the Country.These problems seem never to be sorted out no matter which party gets in. I suppose some would blame the Tories and the Tory-lites for this situation and wish for the Left wing to get into power hoping they will be able to sort it out. In some ways I would be interested to see a left wing majority government just to see what they could actually do.
Say a left wing government with the majority of Blair in '97. In some ways that would be an interesting experiment on the power of governments to actually make big changes. I am sure the left wing would want to but I just have my doubts as to whether that would work out. It would be interesting but a shame for the country as I do feel both the left and the right of the political spectrum fool things up just as badly but in different ways. Not that I wish to see just vanilla centre ground parties running the country from now on but it seems that is kind of what works.
We will see what will happen but Corbyn just needs to be elected leader of Labour first before all this can happen. Each step at a time.
BTW if I am brutally honest I do not really care which end of the political spectrum gets in if they make my life better through their actions. I admit that I am completely selfish in that the only things that matter to me are me and mine. My family and our life. Make it better I support you, make it worse and you're a bunch of cnuts. I wonder if anyone else here are basically honest enough to admit that on a basic level they too are out for themselves. Anyone else honest enough for that? BTW that is as much the way of the right as the left so do not go holier than though about socialism being about the society and for all. They always end up being about their own. In whatever system you always end up with haves and have nots whether capitalism or communism. Human nature will out. I am a cynic at heart.
You can nominate me for sainthood if you wish but I an non religious.The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
I am not sure. You have no chance.Veronese68 wrote:PB is the most sensible person on here.0 -
They need to win Tory votes
Either that or they need to get more traditional Labour supporters to the polling stations. The poor and the young are the least likely to vote, and with a third of the electorate not bothering to vote at the last election, there's an enormous potential booster right there.0 -
Sorry but here you go again making statements about what you see as wrong with the country as if they were fact and offering no evidence to back them up. I refer you back to my definition of 'leftiebollox'Cameron has no answer to extreme rent rises, a failing nhs or transport infrructure and no answer to a shabby education system or even recognise there is anything wrong but why would he? he lives in a bubble of private schooling and wealth, so, our local comp is in special measures and thats an academy, so how is making all schools one going to help? he is an out of touch idiot.
His plans on building more housing are just talk and with net migration running at 0.5m per year, how is right to buy going to help anyone struggling to house themselves? infact will reduce social housing stock.
To me Stevo, it is the right that are on that blue pill and xxxxing the rest of us with it :evil:
On the point about Corbyn's policies lacking credibility and deliverability, would care to explain how you think he will find the considerable funds required to what you perceive as the problems above? This is of course after he has spent the hundreds of billions of pounds required to nationalise the energy industry, the rail industry and reopen a network of uneconomic mines? Actually, first tell us where you think he will find the money needed to do those three things? :roll:
Maybe money grows on trees, or maybe he can raise taxes on the rich a bit to fund it Seriously, this is leftie la-la land and a large proportion of the electorate know it. "I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]0 -
Rick, I take your point to some extent on having an effective opposition but on balance I'll take the alternative for nowSeparately, that's a bigger issue for the Uk generally. Things work better when there is decent opposition to keep those in power sharp, but Stevo's a little too selfish to see it that way.
As I've said before on here, I reckon that eventually Labour will split into the hard left 'rump' protest party and the more moderate wing because of what is happening now and so we may eventually get a more sensible and mature opposition - which is not a bad thing. They may even team up with your lot and get you into double figures in parliament "I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]0 -
I missed the bit about opening mines, coal I take it? What a joke. At a time when the energy policy is towards gas with nuclear and even renewables he wants to open coal mines. Ignoring the fact it's cheaper from overseas where is the market coming from? Power stations used to take most of the coal used in the UK, but they've been closing them down for various reasons. There's really big efficient coal stations that got forced to close due to emissions exceeding EU limits. They could have tried to apply tech to reduce emissions but the cost was prohibitive making the cost to produce too expensive.
So our taxes are going to be thrown at a dead or dying industry to appeal to leftie, unionists. Indeed to right their wrongs from the miners strike. Are there even enough miners left to work in the mines?
Oh how I laughed when Stevo made his post mentioning the opening of mines. I thought Corbyn was clever. Did he lose his faculties when he announced that cloud cuckoo policy? They used to call lefties in labour the "Looney Left", I now know why. Please vote Corbyn everyone, just please get him in. Comedy value would be high I think.0 -
Tangled Metal - from what I've seen, what he actually said was that Britain should CONSIDER re-opening certain coal mines in South Wales if it is economically viable (in the case of rising coal prices) in the future and if the technology exists to make it clean burning and carbon neutral.0
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OK. That sounds better but I doubt it'll happen. Coal is not really a good idea to derive our power from which means it's unlikely to pay its way if you try to reopen mines. Of course I'm probably biased since I've worked for companies supplying product for use in gas powered generation.
You can probably see.why I could see a real leftie saying they'd open coal mines. I think I'm right in saying the miner's strike was a watershed in socialism and unionism so any way of turning the clock back.to when there was a coal.mining industry would appeal to them.0 -
Even if you take coal mines out of the equation, the cost of what he has so far publicaly said he will nationalise will be hundreds of billions. So where is the money coming from to fund this?Tangled Metal - from what I've seen, what he actually said was that Britain should CONSIDER re-opening certain coal mines in South Wales if it is economically viable (in the case of rising coal prices) in the future and if the technology exists to make it clean burning and carbon neutral.
And who knows what else he will aim to nationalise once he is heading up Old Labour?"I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]0 -
Even if you take coal mines out of the equation, the cost of what he has so far publicaly said he will nationalise will be hundreds of billions. So where is the money coming from to fund this?Tangled Metal - from what I've seen, what he actually said was that Britain should CONSIDER re-opening certain coal mines in South Wales if it is economically viable (in the case of rising coal prices) in the future and if the technology exists to make it clean burning and carbon neutral.
And who knows what else he will aim to nationalise once he is heading up Old Labour?
With the trains, he could just let the franchises run out and then nationalise. Also, these are money-making organisations, so money used for buying back shares (and shares in nuclear might become very cheap, very quickly if the government refuses to insure the next generation of power stations on behalf of the energy companies) could be recouped from energy bills.0
