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  • tangled_metal
    tangled_metal Posts: 4,021
    Len is a clever operator I've always thought. I respect his abilities but not his actions or politics.

    Anyone know what this people first right wing group in Labour is that the momentum lady talked about? Is it you Stevo?
  • Stevo_666
    Stevo_666 Posts: 60,846
    Tangled Metal wrote:
    Len is a clever operator I've always thought. I respect his abilities but not his actions or politics.

    Anyone know what this people first right wing group in Labour is that the momentum lady talked about? Is it you Stevo?
    I think she's referring to anyone who's not a Corbynite, or maybe anyone who supports Tom Watson? I only voted JC - although it does seem to be going very well indeed so far :D
    "I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]
  • tangled_metal
    tangled_metal Posts: 4,021
    Could be Labour first. A centre left group to counter momentum.
  • Stevo_666
    Stevo_666 Posts: 60,846
    Corbyns boss gives him 15 months to turn things around:
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-39398544

    Or else they will need to move further to the left - clearly they are too middle of the road to succeed at present :lol:
    "I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]
  • kingstongraham
    kingstongraham Posts: 27,866
    Opinion piece in The Times today:
    Your country needs you to join the opposition
    Clare Foges

    Fellow Tories and others should sign up to Labour for the sake of our parliamentary democracy

    ...


    Two years ago some Tories paid a £3 entry fee to join Labour and vote in Corbyn. It was part sabotage, part joke. The joke has gone on long enough. An opposition that is only good for satire is bad for Britain. Now is the time, as they say, for all good men and women to come to the aid of the party.
  • Stevo_666
    Stevo_666 Posts: 60,846
    KingstonGraham wrote:
    Opinion piece in The Times today:
    Your country needs you to join the opposition
    Clare Foges

    Fellow Tories and others should sign up to Labour for the sake of our parliamentary democracy

    ...


    Two years ago some Tories paid a £3 entry fee to join Labour and vote in Corbyn. It was part sabotage, part joke. The joke has gone on long enough. An opposition that is only good for satire is bad for Britain. Now is the time, as they say, for all good men and women to come to the aid of the party.
    Shes quite presentable actually. And a Tory party member :)
    http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/labour-blocks-david-cameron-speechwriter-claire-foges-from-joining-party-to-oust-jeremy-corbyn_uk_58d90195e4b03787d35a3d08

    She should have kept quiet about joining to oust Corbyn. Personally I think he should be given a chance to prove himself at the next GE, otherwise all the lefties will make some socialist martyr of him and claim he would have won, he just didn't get a chance to put his ideas across :lol:
    "I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]
  • ballysmate
    ballysmate Posts: 15,930
    Stevo 666 wrote:
    KingstonGraham wrote:
    Opinion piece in The Times today:
    Your country needs you to join the opposition
    Clare Foges

    Fellow Tories and others should sign up to Labour for the sake of our parliamentary democracy

    ...


    Two years ago some Tories paid a £3 entry fee to join Labour and vote in Corbyn. It was part sabotage, part joke. The joke has gone on long enough. An opposition that is only good for satire is bad for Britain. Now is the time, as they say, for all good men and women to come to the aid of the party.
    Shes quite presentable actually. And a Tory party member :)
    http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/labour-blocks-david-cameron-speechwriter-claire-foges-from-joining-party-to-oust-jeremy-corbyn_uk_58d90195e4b03787d35a3d08

    She should have kept quiet about joining to oust Corbyn. Personally I think he should be given a chance to prove himself at the next GE, otherwise all the lefties will make some socialist martyr of him and claim he would have won, he just didn't get a chance to put his ideas across :lol:

    I believe it is en vogue to blame MSM for Corbyn's woes in the polls.
    Personally I think his ideas are coming across fine and dandy.
  • Stevo_666
    Stevo_666 Posts: 60,846
    They definitely are :D

    http://www.ukpolitical.info/General_election_polls.htm

    Looks like the Lib Dem message is really hitting home as well :)
    "I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]
  • ballysmate
    ballysmate Posts: 15,930
    Stevo 666 wrote:
    They definitely are :D

    http://www.ukpolitical.info/General_election_polls.htm

    Looks like the Lib Dem message is really hitting home as well :)

    I see UKIP are out performing Libdems, even after they have shot their bolt and achieved Brexit. :lol:
  • Stevo_666
    Stevo_666 Posts: 60,846
    Ballysmate wrote:
    Stevo 666 wrote:
    They definitely are :D

    http://www.ukpolitical.info/General_election_polls.htm

    Looks like the Lib Dem message is really hitting home as well :)

    I see UKIP are out performing Libdems, even after they have shot their bolt and achieved Brexit. :lol:
    So a party which by the admission of its only (departing) MP is now completely pointless is doing better in the polls than the Lib Dems.

    What does that tell us? :D
    "I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]
  • ballysmate
    ballysmate Posts: 15,930
    That the sandal market must be shrinking.
  • rjsterry
    rjsterry Posts: 29,209
    Or possibly that the polls are not all that meaningful as we don't use PR.
    1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
    Pinnacle Monzonite

    Part of the anti-growth coalition
  • Stevo_666
    Stevo_666 Posts: 60,846
    rjsterry wrote:
    Or possibly that the polls are not all that meaningful as we don't use PR.
    The polls are still a half decent indication regardless of the voting system. Regardless of that, New Old Labour is right royally screwed.
    "I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]
  • rjsterry
    rjsterry Posts: 29,209
    Stevo 666 wrote:
    rjsterry wrote:
    Or possibly that the polls are not all that meaningful as we don't use PR.
    The polls are still a half decent indication regardless of the voting system. Regardless of that, New Old Labour is right royally screwed.
    Oh, agreed on that. They need to be picking up by-elections without breaking a sweat to give an indication that they pose a serious threat.

    For UKIP in particular, they were predicting multiple seats on the basis of similar polls in 2015 and they managed one seat (on loan from the Conservatives). Since then, they have become if anything, less organised.
    1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
    Pinnacle Monzonite

    Part of the anti-growth coalition
  • RallyBiker
    RallyBiker Posts: 378
    Well my Unite voting slip is winging it's way to head office with a X for Len. Hopefully he can win and continue to give Jeremy the leg up he deserves! Up the workers I say!
  • mamba80
    mamba80 Posts: 5,032
    considering what the Tories are doing to this country right now, the mess that is the Labour party is a minor side show now :lol:
  • Stevo_666
    Stevo_666 Posts: 60,846
    RallyBiker wrote:
    Well my Unite voting slip is winging it's way to head office with a X for Len. Hopefully he can win and continue to give Jeremy the leg up he deserves! Up the workers I say!
    I suppose you're doing the same thing as I did but indirectly :D
    "I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]
  • Stevo_666
    Stevo_666 Posts: 60,846
    mamba80 wrote:
    considering what the Tories are doing to this country right now, the mess that is the Labour party is a minor side show now :lol:
    Whatever you think the Tories are doing, they are stopping New Old Labour being in power and really ****ing things up :wink:
    "I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]
  • rjsterry
    rjsterry Posts: 29,209
    I'll post it here as I'm not sure it merits a whole thread, and it feels vaguely relevant to the general theme.

    What do people understand by the phrase "fair to taxpayers", specifically in relation to the changes to Bereavement Support payments. Don't have a fundamental issue with the change, but it just sounded like one of those sounds good but doesn't mean anything reasons, a bit like Brexit means Brexit.
    I mean, in what way was the previous arrangement unfair? Or at any rate more unfair than the new system?
    1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
    Pinnacle Monzonite

    Part of the anti-growth coalition
  • mamba80
    mamba80 Posts: 5,032
    Stevo 666 wrote:
    mamba80 wrote:
    considering what the Tories are doing to this country right now, the mess that is the Labour party is a minor side show now :lol:
    Whatever you think the Tories are doing, they are stopping New Old Labour being in power and really ****ing things up :wink:

    i guess all that depends on how brexit pans out? should it go really bad, the tories will be out of power for years, just like last time.
  • mamba80
    mamba80 Posts: 5,032
    rjsterry wrote:
    I'll post it here as I'm not sure it merits a whole thread, and it feels vaguely relevant to the general theme.

    What do people understand by the phrase "fair to taxpayers", specifically in relation to the changes to Bereavement Support payments. Don't have a fundamental issue with the change, but it just sounded like one of those sounds good but doesn't mean anything reasons, a bit like Brexit means Brexit.
    I mean, in what way was the previous arrangement unfair? Or at any rate more unfair than the new system?

    Can you explain a little more? i 'm not familiar with the changes or what they replaced.
  • rjsterry
    rjsterry Posts: 29,209
    Families with children in which one parent dies are currently eligible for a £2,000 lump sum followed by a taxable benefit of about £112 a week until the youngest child leaves full-time education, which can stretch over 20 years. For those who die after midnight on Wednesday, the lump sum will rise to £3,500 but the payments will be cut to £350 a month (about £80 a week) with a dramatically shorter time limit of 18 months.

    I think the big change is moving from £112 a week until youngest child leaves full time education (could easily be 10-15years) to £80 a week for 18 months. In a family where one parent is terminally ill but still has a few months to live, I can certainly see why they would be worried. But rather than get into the usual think-of-the-children versus we-can't-afford-it standoff, I was struck by how weak TM's justification was - almost as though she didn't care because it was something Osborne came up with anyway. I'd have more time for her if she just said we've decided to reduce welfare spending by X and we've calculated that this particular cut will be easier to push through than others because most people aren't even aware of it or think it won't affect them.
    1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
    Pinnacle Monzonite

    Part of the anti-growth coalition
  • mamba80
    mamba80 Posts: 5,032
    rjsterry wrote:
    Families with children in which one parent dies are currently eligible for a £2,000 lump sum followed by a taxable benefit of about £112 a week until the youngest child leaves full-time education, which can stretch over 20 years. For those who die after midnight on Wednesday, the lump sum will rise to £3,500 but the payments will be cut to £350 a month (about £80 a week) with a dramatically shorter time limit of 18 months.

    I think the big change is moving from £112 a week until youngest child leaves full time education (could easily be 10-15years) to £80 a week for 18 months. In a family where one parent is terminally ill but still has a few months to live, I can certainly see why they would be worried. But rather than get into the usual think-of-the-children versus we-can't-afford-it standoff, I was struck by how weak TM's justification was - almost as though she didn't care because it was something Osborne came up with anyway. I'd have more time for her if she just said we've decided to reduce welfare spending by X and we've calculated that this particular cut will be easier to push through than others because most people aren't even aware of it or think it won't affect them.

    i ve some experience in bereavement, i didnt even realise i could have claimed, personally i think if you can afford to look after yourself, its not the states job to give wealthy folk money, no matter how terrible the circumstances.

    as i understand it the new payment will no longer be taken into acc for any other means tested benefit? wow!

    the amounts involved here will be tiny and it would nt hurt to allow a small pension and lump sum (for funeral costs) where people are struggling until the child leaves education.

    i really struggle to understand why anyone would vote tory, or at least anyone who has to work for a living, they look after themselves and people like them - their so called care for the rest of us is an illusion, to win power.
    so of course TM /GO dont care, they are multi millionaires and have no comprehension of the struggles of ordinary people.
    i have zero time for her, she is just a callous weak tory leader in long line of such worms.

    As i said, these sort of payments should be means tested but taking into account the loss of earnings of the deceased.
  • rjsterry
    rjsterry Posts: 29,209
    The previous £112 per week was taxable, which seems fair enough.

    As I say, I was more interested in the fairer to taxpayers justification, as if dying and leaving a family without an income was some sort of unfortunate but avoidable lifestyle choice. Or perhaps it's that families that haven't lost an earning parent don't receive a benefit and that's not fair? I've been trying to think of a way that it would at least follow some logic, but can't think of one yet.
    1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
    Pinnacle Monzonite

    Part of the anti-growth coalition
  • Stevo_666
    Stevo_666 Posts: 60,846
    mamba80 wrote:
    Stevo 666 wrote:
    mamba80 wrote:
    considering what the Tories are doing to this country right now, the mess that is the Labour party is a minor side show now :lol:
    Whatever you think the Tories are doing, they are stopping New Old Labour being in power and really ****ing things up :wink:

    i guess all that depends on how brexit pans out? should it go really bad, the tories will be out of power for years, just like last time.
    According to you its going really badly and just look at the polls.
    http://www.ukpolitical.info/General_election_polls.htm
    Maybe if we do badly enough everyone will vote Tory :wink:
    "I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]
  • mamba80
    mamba80 Posts: 5,032
    Stevo 666 wrote:
    mamba80 wrote:
    Stevo 666 wrote:
    mamba80 wrote:
    considering what the Tories are doing to this country right now, the mess that is the Labour party is a minor side show now :lol:
    Whatever you think the Tories are doing, they are stopping New Old Labour being in power and really ****ing things up :wink:

    i guess all that depends on how brexit pans out? should it go really bad, the tories will be out of power for years, just like last time.
    According to you its going really badly and just look at the polls.
    http://www.ukpolitical.info/General_election_polls.htm
    Maybe if we do badly enough everyone will vote Tory :wink:

    even you must realise that any downside to Brexit hasnt happened yet (as brexit hasnt happened!!! ) and i did qualify that with "should it" :wink:

    of course should it prove to be a stonking success and yes, i hope it is! then the tories are home and dry for years to come, which is when i follow my daughter to Auss :D
  • ballysmate
    ballysmate Posts: 15,930
    mamba80 wrote:
    Stevo 666 wrote:
    mamba80 wrote:
    Stevo 666 wrote:
    mamba80 wrote:
    considering what the Tories are doing to this country right now, the mess that is the Labour party is a minor side show now :lol:
    Whatever you think the Tories are doing, they are stopping New Old Labour being in power and really ****ing things up :wink:

    i guess all that depends on how brexit pans out? should it go really bad, the tories will be out of power for years, just like last time.
    According to you its going really badly and just look at the polls.
    http://www.ukpolitical.info/General_election_polls.htm
    Maybe if we do badly enough everyone will vote Tory :wink:

    even you must realise that any downside to Brexit hasnt happened yet (as brexit hasnt happened!!! ) and i did qualify that with "should it" :wink:

    of course should it prove to be a stonking success and yes, i hope it is! then the tories are home and dry for years to come, which is when i follow my daughter to Auss :D

    Missing you already. :P
  • Stevo_666
    Stevo_666 Posts: 60,846
    mamba80 wrote:
    Stevo 666 wrote:
    mamba80 wrote:
    Stevo 666 wrote:
    mamba80 wrote:
    considering what the Tories are doing to this country right now, the mess that is the Labour party is a minor side show now :lol:
    Whatever you think the Tories are doing, they are stopping New Old Labour being in power and really ****ing things up :wink:

    i guess all that depends on how brexit pans out? should it go really bad, the tories will be out of power for years, just like last time.
    According to you its going really badly and just look at the polls.
    http://www.ukpolitical.info/General_election_polls.htm
    Maybe if we do badly enough everyone will vote Tory :wink:

    even you must realise that any downside to Brexit hasnt happened yet (as brexit hasnt happened!!! ) and i did qualify that with "should it" :wink:

    of course should it prove to be a stonking success and yes, i hope it is! then the tories are home and dry for years to come, which is when i follow my daughter to Auss :D
    According to the SERs (swivel eyed remainers) in then other thread it is already happening. But you're just not seeing it like a lot of the population - either that or you're just unrealistically hopeful because you've got £50 riding out little bet. Want to concede now? :wink:

    As for going to Aus, please persuade some of the CS whingers that its a good idea. But good to hear that you can go there despite there being no freedom of movement :P
    "I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]
  • tangled_metal
    tangled_metal Posts: 4,021
    Anyone know the relative wealth of Labour elite? I know the new Labour lot were more than well off. Miliband brothers did very nicely out of their socialist dad. Corbyn lives in a nice part of London i believe, he won't be on working class income and I'd wager he gets, or used to get, an outside Westminster income from various sources too.

    Oh well, rich Tory elite that's out of touch with working class feeds nicely into a socialist ideology. Even a champagne socialist ideology. I've got news for you, any MP you care to mention will be wealthy. It's not a poor man's job. Most take a pay cut to become an MP. Whatever your view of the Tories i can tell you for sure that i have a better idea of financially struggling on low pay in a modern UK than Corbyn or May.
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 75,661
    edited April 2017
    Tangled Metal wrote:
    Anyone know the relative wealth of Labour elite? I know the new Labour lot were more than well off. Miliband brothers did very nicely out of their socialist dad. Corbyn lives in a nice part of London i believe, he won't be on working class income and I'd wager he gets, or used to get, an outside Westminster income from various sources too.

    Oh well, rich Tory elite that's out of touch with working class feeds nicely into a socialist ideology. Even a champagne socialist ideology. I've got news for you, any MP you care to mention will be wealthy. It's not a poor man's job. Most take a pay cut to become an MP. Whatever your view of the Tories i can tell you for sure that i have a better idea of financially struggling on low pay in a modern UK than Corbyn or May.

    Do you have to be poor to be able to represent the poor?

    You can understand other people's lives, what impacts and affects them without having to be them.

    I wouldn't suggest my Dr doesn't know WTF he's on about just because she hasn't had whatever illness I have.
    _

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