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mrfpb

Hasn't it been the position for some time that if you do all your work as a contractor for one company/customer you will be viewed as an employee by HMRC. HMRC have probably been lax in enforcing this, and there was a a similar issue at the BBC a few years back when it emerged that many "staff" were being paid as contractors.

It impacts the worker, but also impacts the customer/employer, who has to pay NI contributions (and presumably workplace pension contributions in future)

pblakeney

rjsterry wrote:

Stevo 666 wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

https://www.theregister.co.uk/2017/02/27/contractors_begin_mass_exodus_ahead_of_ir35/?mt=1488194770303

Got a view on this IR35 tax change Stevo?

Shock horror - raising taxes causes resources to move out of a particular sector...is the penny beginning to drop Rick?

Is it really raising taxes? You'll know better than me, but in my limited understanding this is just putting contractors and agency staff under the same PAYE system as directly employed staff. I know the two systems aren't identical, but are they that different? Figures of 30% worse off are being thrown around.

I can see that by only applying the changes to the public sector, there is an incentive to move to the unaffected private sector, which does seem like an own goal.

When a freelance worker goes staff they invariably get a massive pay cut to cover the dubious benefits.
A lot of tax on a little is no more than a little tax on a lot. Add in reduced spending and yes, own goal.

Stevo_666

rjsterry wrote:

Stevo 666 wrote:

Rick t.Chasey wrote:

https://www.theregister.co.uk/2017/02/27/contractors_begin_mass_exodus_ahead_of_ir35/?mt=1488194770303

Got a view on this IR35 tax change Stevo?

Shock horror - raising taxes causes resources to move out of a particular sector...is the penny beginning to drop Rick?

Is it really raising taxes? You'll know better than me, but in my limited understanding this is just putting contractors and agency staff under the same PAYE system as directly employed staff. I know the two systems aren't identical, but are they that different? Figures of 30% worse off are being thrown around.

I can see that by only applying the changes to the public sector, there is an incentive to move to the unaffected private sector, which does seem like an own goal.

Effectively yes it is designed to collect more tax. But not by the obvious route of raising rates.

As mentioned above, it is to some degree a question of enforcement as previously the IR35 status was a matter for the contractor. The rules are complex and many contractors it would appear have been concluding that IR35 doesn't apply to them. Now the responsibility rests with the client, who is more likely to take a deeper look as they are on the hook.

rjsterry

Stevo 666 wrote:

rjsterry wrote:

Stevo 666 wrote:

Rick t.Chasey wrote:

https://www.theregister.co.uk/2017/02/27/contractors_begin_mass_exodus_ahead_of_ir35/?mt=1488194770303

Got a view on this IR35 tax change Stevo?

Shock horror - raising taxes causes resources to move out of a particular sector...is the penny beginning to drop Rick?

Is it really raising taxes? You'll know better than me, but in my limited understanding this is just putting contractors and agency staff under the same PAYE system as directly employed staff. I know the two systems aren't identical, but are they that different? Figures of 30% worse off are being thrown around.

I can see that by only applying the changes to the public sector, there is an incentive to move to the unaffected private sector, which does seem like an own goal.

Effectively yes it is designed to collect more tax. But not by the obvious route of raising rates.

As mentioned above, it is to some degree a question of enforcement as previously the IR35 status was a matter for the contractor. The rules are complex and many contractors it would appear have been concluding that IR35 doesn't apply to them. Now the responsibility rests with the client, who is more likely to take a deeper look as they are on the hook.

Any idea why the rules are only being changed for public clients, or have they just been able to lobby less effectively?

Stevo_666

rjsterry wrote:

Any idea why the rules are only being changed for public clients, or have they just been able to lobby less effectively?

No - gut feel is that it isn't lobbying though. Will let you know if I see anything.

Stevo_666

Looks like Labour haven't lost their silky smooth PR abilities
http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2017/03/corbyn-spinners-disastrous-trip-pub/

Stevo_666

Stevo 666 wrote:

rjsterry wrote:

Any idea why the rules are only being changed for public clients, or have they just been able to lobby less effectively?

No - gut feel is that it isn't lobbying though. Will let you know if I see anything.

Here you go:
http://www.itcontracting.com/ir35-public-sector-changes-contractors-need-know/

rjsterry

Stevo 666 wrote:

Stevo 666 wrote:

rjsterry wrote:

Any idea why the rules are only being changed for public clients, or have they just been able to lobby less effectively?

No - gut feel is that it isn't lobbying though. Will let you know if I see anything.

Here you go:
http://www.itcontracting.com/ir35-public-sector-changes-contractors-need-know/

Thanks. So essentially it was bad press from high profile public sector employees setting themselves up as limited companies and charging their public employer for their services through that limited company, thus reducing their tax payment below what it would have been if they were a conventional employee at the same basic pay. I suppose the private sector not being subject to FOI requests means there is less chance of a fuss being made again.

Stevo_666

Labours latest attempt to win a few votes by proposing a policy that impacts only 12,000 or so individuals and of questionable effect:
http://www.cityam.com/260160/labours-john-mcdonnell-wants-force-high-earners-publish

They did use quite an appropriate picture of McDonnell though:



Anyone else find him vaguely sinister?

ballysmate

And along comes Jezza to publish his... forgetting 40k paid to him as leader of opposition.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... -of-114342

You couldn't make this sh1t up.

The gift that keeps on giving. Budget coming up as well.

mamba80

Still, i bet he paid more in Tax than you earn....... does he actually claim his opp leaders Salary?
and as its taxed at source whats the problem? at least he has published his.

As leading MPs go, he is a bit of a pauper isn't he.

ballysmate

mamba80 wrote:

Still, i bet he paid more in Tax than you earn....... does he actually claim his opp leaders Salary?
and as its taxed at source whats the problem? at least he has published his.

As leading MPs go, he is a bit of a pauper isn't he.

And?
What's your point?
Perhaps it will give you the opportunity to tell us (again :roll: ) that you are a higher tax rate payer.

The point is that his Shadow Chancellor suggests that high earners publish their tax returns and then days later Corbyn publishes his, albeit incomplete. I have no doubt that he paid his full tax burden, but I would expect him to be able to fill the form in correctly.
Mind you, this is the same bloke who missed the deadline last year and had to pay £100 fine.

Stevo_666

mamba80 wrote:

Still, i bet he paid more in Tax than you earn....... does he actually claim his opp leaders Salary?
and as its taxed at source whats the problem? at least he has published his.

As leading MPs go, he is a bit of a pauper isn't he.

Depends whether that's before my refund or not

Although Corbyn is fairly rare amongst socialists in that he actually contributes something towards society in the first place

mamba80

Ballysmate wrote:

mamba80 wrote:

Still, i bet he paid more in Tax than you earn....... does he actually claim his opp leaders Salary?
and as its taxed at source whats the problem? at least he has published his.

As leading MPs go, he is a bit of a pauper isn't he.

And?
What's your point?
Perhaps it will give you the opportunity to tell us (again :roll: ) that you are a higher tax rate payer.

The point is that his Shadow Chancellor suggests that high earners publish their tax returns and then days later Corbyn publishes his, albeit incomplete. I have no doubt that he paid his full tax burden, but I would expect him to be able to fill the form in correctly.
Mind you, this is the same bloke who missed the deadline last year and had to pay £100 fine.

Your keen enough to take a pop at what appears to be a genuine mistake, poss by his Accountants and your right, i do pay alot in taxes, so fcuking what? am i complaining? no, i work hard to keep my cisco accreditation's which means i can prop up some of the idiots who will ensure this country is worse off because of Brexit... maybe it rankles that i am a higher wage earner who doesnt vote tory? a sort of inverse snobbery by yourself.

It would be good to see ALL our senior politicians publish theirs too, lets see if they practice what they preach....... after all if you ve nothing to hide????

JC has paid his taxes, doesnt avoid them by using a Panamanian account and appears to have little in savings, so why the story? though judging by his pension contributions, he is hoping for a long retirement? ???

Make it sooner rather than later Jeremy!

kingstongraham

Ballysmate wrote:

And along comes Jezza to publish his... forgetting 40k paid to him as leader of opposition.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... -of-114342

You couldn't make this sh1t up.

The gift that keeps on giving. Budget coming up as well.

Apparently it's included under the "state benefits" section as an allowance, not a salary. Bit weird but not a massive story.

If he actually had received £36,000 in benefits and pensions, that might have been a story.

ballysmate

mamba80 wrote:

Ballysmate wrote:

mamba80 wrote:

Still, i bet he paid more in Tax than you earn....... does he actually claim his opp leaders Salary?
and as its taxed at source whats the problem? at least he has published his.

As leading MPs go, he is a bit of a pauper isn't he.

And?
What's your point?
Perhaps it will give you the opportunity to tell us (again :roll: ) that you are a higher tax rate payer.

The point is that his Shadow Chancellor suggests that high earners publish their tax returns and then days later Corbyn publishes his, albeit incomplete. I have no doubt that he paid his full tax burden, but I would expect him to be able to fill the form in correctly.
Mind you, this is the same bloke who missed the deadline last year and had to pay £100 fine.

Your keen enough to take a pop at what appears to be a genuine mistake, poss by his Accountants and your right, i do pay alot in taxes, so fcuking what? am i complaining? no, i work hard to keep my cisco accreditation's which means i can prop up some of the idiots who will ensure this country is worse off because of Brexit... maybe it rankles that i am a higher wage earner who doesnt vote tory? a sort of inverse snobbery by yourself.

It would be good to see ALL our senior politicians publish theirs too, lets see if they practice what they preach....... after all if you ve nothing to hide????

JC has paid his taxes, doesnt avoid them by using a Panamanian account and appears to have little in savings, so why the story? though judging by his pension contributions, he is hoping for a long retirement? ???

Make it sooner rather than later Jeremy!

Genuine mistake or not, it just causes further embarrassment after his Shadow Chancellor's proposals published this week.
As regards your earnings, I don't give a flying fcuk, doesn't rankle in the least.
Panamanian account? Is that a reference to Cameron? If so, you will recall that he paid all taxes due.
As regards Corb's tax return, I am not interested in anyone's tax return and have no wish to scrutinise it, nor anyone else's for that matter.
It is his judgement. McDonnell comes up with a proposal, Corbyn does something to become the story.

rick_chasey

Curious chat from Balls et all, trying to goad the Tories into an election.

mamba80

Ballysmate wrote:

mamba80 wrote:

Ballysmate wrote:

mamba80 wrote:

Still, i bet he paid more in Tax than you earn....... does he actually claim his opp leaders Salary?
and as its taxed at source whats the problem? at least he has published his.

As leading MPs go, he is a bit of a pauper isn't he.

And?
What's your point?
Perhaps it will give you the opportunity to tell us (again :roll: ) that you are a higher tax rate payer.

The point is that his Shadow Chancellor suggests that high earners publish their tax returns and then days later Corbyn publishes his, albeit incomplete. I have no doubt that he paid his full tax burden, but I would expect him to be able to fill the form in correctly.
Mind you, this is the same bloke who missed the deadline last year and had to pay £100 fine.

Your keen enough to take a pop at what appears to be a genuine mistake, poss by his Accountants and your right, i do pay alot in taxes, so fcuking what? am i complaining? no, i work hard to keep my cisco accreditation's which means i can prop up some of the idiots who will ensure this country is worse off because of Brexit... maybe it rankles that i am a higher wage earner who doesnt vote tory? a sort of inverse snobbery by yourself.

It would be good to see ALL our senior politicians publish theirs too, lets see if they practice what they preach....... after all if you ve nothing to hide????

JC has paid his taxes, doesnt avoid them by using a Panamanian account and appears to have little in savings, so why the story? though judging by his pension contributions, he is hoping for a long retirement? ???

Make it sooner rather than later Jeremy!

Genuine mistake or not, it just causes further embarrassment after his Shadow Chancellor's proposals published this week.
As regards your earnings, I don't give a flying fcuk, doesn't rankle in the least.
Panamanian account? Is that a reference to Cameron? If so, you will recall that he paid all taxes due.
As regards Corb's tax return, I am not interested in anyone's tax return and have no wish to scrutinise it, nor anyone else's for that matter.
It is his judgement. McDonnell comes up with a proposal, Corbyn does something to become the story.

Really? you were quick enough to bring it up, i didnt.. YOU did!
so it clearly does......
also if you have no interest in any ones TR, why home in on JC s one?? just something to gossip about isnt it.

Like DC, JC has paid ALL taxes due, as he is PAYE - Panamanian style accounts are usually used to hide monies, avoid tax, other wise DC and others would have it all down the local high street bank wouldnt they.

j

Stevo_666

mamba80 wrote:

Your keen enough to take a pop at what appears to be a genuine mistake, poss by his Accountants and your right, i do pay alot in taxes, so fcuking what? am i complaining? no, i work hard to keep my cisco accreditation's which means i can prop up some of the idiots who will ensure this country is worse off because of Brexit... maybe it rankles that i am a higher wage earner who doesnt vote tory? a sort of inverse snobbery by yourself.

It would be good to see ALL our senior politicians publish theirs too, lets see if they practice what they preach....... after all if you ve nothing to hide????

JC has paid his taxes, doesnt avoid them by using a Panamanian account and appears to have little in savings, so why the story? though judging by his pension contributions, he is hoping for a long retirement? ???

Make it sooner rather than later Jeremy!

If that's your view then publish your last tax return info on here, after all, what's the harm? Then we can see all this tax that you claim you pay

BTW, the pension contributions are probably high because they are tax deductible at your top marginal rate of income tax - very good tax planning by comrade Jezza, I do that myself

Stevo_666

Rick Chasey wrote:

Curious chat from Balls et all, trying to goad the Tories into an election.

http://www.ukpolitical.info/General_election_polls.htm

Latest gap getting ever wider - currently 18% lead over Labour and 35% lead over Lib Dems. Bring it on! Although I suspect Balls etc know that Labour need a massive kicking in a GE before Corbyn can be unseated, hence the on the face of it suicidal request.

rick_chasey

Stevo 666 wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

Curious chat from Balls et all, trying to goad the Tories into an election.

http://www.ukpolitical.info/General_election_polls.htm

Latest gap getting ever wider - currently 18% lead over Labour and 35% lead over Lib Dems. Bring it on! Although I suspect Balls etc know that Labour need a massive kicking in a GE before Corbyn can be unseated, hence the on the face of it suicidal request.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... rty-leader

“If I was [Theresa May] I’d be calling early general election to destroy Labour, because Labour are currently rather weak.”

rjsterry

Not sure whether they are trying to prove that the Tories don't have the nerve for it or begging to be put out of their misery.

rick_chasey

rjsterry wrote:

Not sure whether they are trying to prove that the Tories don't have the nerve for it or begging to be put out of their misery.

That's why it's curious.

Odd thing to say.

Presumably it's aimed at Corbyn.

Stevo_666

I'm starting to feel sorry for Jezza now - even Stephen Hawking is having a pop at him
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-39191876

But he is determined to fight on: Mr Corbyn told the BBC's Victoria Derbyshire: "Do not underestimate the support there is for the Labour Party."
Don't worry Jezza, we don't

Alain Quay

Re; your beyond tedious gloatfest, most people recognise that a healthy democracy is paramount, not the success of any one political party. The UK is effectively a one party state party and a glance around the world or at history will tell us it's not a great situation to be in. Competence, scrutiny, integrity, transparency, accountability, etc. all suffer and the public loses. I do agree though and have always felt that Corbyn is an utter disaster and a populist leader who shares many more similarities with the current U.S. President than he would ever admit.

rjsterry

Alain Quay wrote:

Re; your beyond tedious gloatfest, most people recognise that a healthy democracy is paramount, not the success of any one political party. The UK is effectively a one party state party and a glance around the world or at history will tell us it's not a great situation to be in. Competence, scrutiny, integrity, transparency, accountability, etc. all suffer and the public loses. I do agree though and have always felt that Corbyn is an utter disaster and a populist leader who shares many more similarities with the current U.S. President than he would ever admit.

Many pages back, we've already touched on the fact that even a number of Conservative MPs think that such a weak opposition is bad for the government as well.

bobmcstuff

Rick Chasey wrote:

rjsterry wrote:

Not sure whether they are trying to prove that the Tories don't have the nerve for it or begging to be put out of their misery.

That's why it's curious.

Odd thing to say.

Presumably it's aimed at Corbyn.

One assumes these people believe that that were a snap election held tomorrow, Labour would be destroyed and that would kick them into sorting their act out and getting rid of Corbyn.

A bit of a long game, but actually might be a better solution than the alternatives. If they were to wait till May's approval ratings possibly start going down when the actual Brexit negotiations start, they might suffer a less horrible defeat which might allow Corbyn to cling on...

By 2020 anything could have happened, I assume they don't want Corbyn limping along until then.

bobmcstuff

Also an interesting article on Corbyn I read the other day in FT https://www.ft.com/content/4736adec-fdc ... 00c5664d30

Chosen (twice) as leader by the party rank and file, he can claim the firm support of perhaps 10 or 15 of 220-odd Labour MPs. This does not seem to bother him. Mr Corbyn’s career has been lived on the far left fringes of politics, where ideological orthodoxy comes well ahead of a serious desire to wield power. He has never forgiven Tony Blair for winning three elections.

The way to understand Mr Corbyn is to place him in his time warp. The year is 1974. The war in Vietnam is drawing to a bloody close. With US help General Augusto Pinochet’s brutal regime has replaced Salvador Allende’s government in Chile. The CIA is plotting the violent overthrow of leftish parties everywhere. Richard Nixon is fighting to stay in the White House.

Here was a ready-made identity. To be progressive was to be anti-American — defenders of the oppressed against Washington’s imperialism, whether in Latin America, Indochina or southern Africa. Doubtless Mr Corbyn marched in protest to the American embassy in London. He has never stopped. Nothing better defines his politics than anti-Americanism. Hence the sympathy towards Vladimir Putin’s Russia, the reluctance to condemn Islamist terrorism, and the blind insistence that Hugo Chávez’s Venezuela was a success story.

International revolutionaries such as Mr Corbyn are not interested in the banal politics required to gather votes at home. Who can worry about housing, schools or transport, let alone the mundane aspirations of Middle England, ahead of the great liberation struggles? Who cares about Hartlepool when they are so closely acquainted with Havana?

All of that stuff about his support for violent dissenters and his dodgy friends from the IRA will really hurt him in an election.

Lookyhere

Labour has lost the last 2 GE complete with moderate centralist leaders and if the UK economy does well during and post brexit, Labour can forget winning the next GE and very likely 2025 too.
they need a charismatic leader, a sort of replacement Blair, that the media and the population can get behind and of course the Tories need to screw up, though given the state of education, nhs & other public services you have to wonder why on earth Labour and the libdems are so far behind in the polls?
there does appear to be a sort of brexit phoney war, where people believe that post EU, we ll be fine and dandy, so no need to blame the tories as all will be well.

mrfpb

Lookyhere wrote:

Labour has lost the last 2 GE complete with moderate centralist leaders and if the UK economy does well during and post brexit, Labour can forget winning the next GE and very likely 2025 too.
they need a charismatic leader, a sort of replacement Blair, that the media and the population can get behind and of course the Tories need to screw up, though given the state of education, nhs & other public services you have to wonder why on earth Labour and the libdems are so far behind in the polls?
there does appear to be a sort of brexit phoney war, where people believe that post EU, we ll be fine and dandy, so no need to blame the tories as all will be well.

Blair is dismissed as a Tory-lite war monger now, but he built an effective coalition of the left. He had Gordon Brown to represent the traditional social reformers, John Prescott to represent the unions. He also had ambitious men like Robin Cook who wanted to reform foreign policy and Donald Dewar who had the blueprint for Scots devolution.

Keeping such a disparate bunch together required leadership and discipline, it required that the individuals/groups get their way in certain matters in exchange for a commitment to enough party reform to convince the electorate to trust them.

Do you see any of this in Corbin's cabinet? He put his cronies in the top jobs, and doesn't let anyone else have a free hand. He represents a narrow sliver of the far left, and the whole PLP know it. (edit: and the whole country knows it too)