Front Ring Changing problems on Orange Five NOW RESOLVED...

Dirtydog11

Changing up to the big ring when going uphill is just asking for trouble, on initial pick-up up all of your power will going through just a couple of links until the chain is fully engaged, don't be surprised if your chain snaps.

Re:- front mechs.
Been running front mechs for years as have many of my riding friends, don't recall any of us have ever having any particular problems with them, much more likely to have an issues with rear indexing IME, they only become an issue when 1X started to take off.....mmm :?

Dirtydog11

You probably wont believe it but I was about to...came into my head whilst I was trying to go to sleep.

OP You should be able to read Shimano on the outward facing links if not it's on backwards, outer links are chamfered to aid pick up, it does make a difference, made the mistake myself.

Now hopefully I can get asleep.

paul.skibum

M9DBO wrote:

Angus Young wrote:

RockmonkeySC wrote:

The problem is with the rider, not the bike.

And yet he's already stated that he's ridden another version of the same bike without issue nor any trouble with other bikes.

Thanks Angus. Maybe at age 44 and almost 40 years of cycling I may need to go back to complete a cycling proficiency course.

Some people, not me but some people, might say if you have been riding 40 years you should know how to adjust a front mech to make it work.

But, for what it's worth, I agree with Rockmonkey

kajjal

Dirtydog11 wrote:

Changing up to the big ring when going uphill is just asking for trouble, on initial pick-up up all of your power will going through just a couple of links until the chain is fully engaged, don't be surprised if your chain snaps.

Re:- front mechs.
Been running front mechs for years as have many of my riding friends, don't recall any of us have ever having any particular problems with them, much more likely to have an issues with rear indexing IME, they only become an issue when 1X started to take off.....mmm :?

1x gearing suits some people but for others is just marketing induced change for the sake of change.

M9DBO

paul.skibum wrote:

M9DBO wrote:

Angus Young wrote:

RockmonkeySC wrote:

The problem is with the rider, not the bike.

And yet he's already stated that he's ridden another version of the same bike without issue nor any trouble with other bikes.

Thanks Angus. Maybe at age 44 and almost 40 years of cycling I may need to go back to complete a cycling proficiency course.

Some people, not me but some people, might say if you have been riding 40 years you should know how to adjust a front mech to make it work.

But, for what it's worth, I agree with Rockmonkey

Know how to adjust the front front mech to make it work? Yeah and so then should the shop full of professionals where I bought it from.

M9DBO

If it is my technique then a 2x10 is not for me as my mates five with a 3x works well. Didn't get out to try again yesterday. Believe it or not my 18 month old BMW 5 series touring got towed away as it wouldn't start. Maybe I was pressing the stater button the wrong way. Hang on...it was parked facing up hill.

paul.skibum

You have a BMW and an Orange. Its so clichéd it is almost funny.

And neither of them work.

Anyone a member of a bmw owners forum? I bet there is a lot of useful advice you can ignore on them too.

Going back to the bike, have you tried adjusting the limit screws on the mech? Have you checked the backward forward chain orientation? Although I think that is a road chain thing not a mtb thing or i have been very lucky.

I mention the limit screws because they would have been first thing I did before driving back to the shop for an hour or more. And before posting on the net about the failings of shimano who are pretty well known for having some decent drivetrain components. Or before filming myself demonstrating poor shifting technique.

Angus Young

paul.skibum wrote:

Or before filming myself demonstrating poor shifting technique.

Still doesn't explain why he doesn't have this issue on any other bike.

cubedean

I would suggest that if 3x works fine on your riding style then 2x is too much of a jump for the mech to handle at such low cadence.

I'd be grabbing as many cogs off the back before going up into the big ring if I ran 2x.

Just my 2p.

FishFish

I think that you are right that if you can change gear in your mates bike then you ought to be able to change gear on your bike. Are you sure that the two bikes have identical gears? I saw the video and saw you adjusting the cable tension on the move - on the front gears. That does not work!. You need to get the thing indexed properly and as in previous advice gent the cables lubed and take it from there. Gear changing is very sensistive to set up and a quarter turn can throw it out and doing it on the move is just unscientific. Judging from the video you may be messing about with it too much. And I don't like your gloves. They are fastidious.

M9DBO

Angus Young wrote:

paul.skibum wrote:

Or before filming myself demonstrating poor shifting technique.

Still doesn't explain why he doesn't have this issue on any other bike.

Thanks Angus, You seem to be getting the point rather than bashing me for bad technique and being an Orange and BMW owner. Bitterness is a hard thing to live with I guess.

Angus Young

M9DBO wrote:

Angus Young wrote:

paul.skibum wrote:

Or before filming myself demonstrating poor shifting technique.

Still doesn't explain why he doesn't have this issue on any other bike.

Thanks Angus, You seem to be getting the point rather than bashing me for bad technique and being an Orange and BMW owner. Bitterness is a hard thing to live with I guess.

I'm President of The Bad Technique Club so I don't hold that against anyone!

M9DBO

Angus Young wrote:

M9DBO wrote:

Angus Young wrote:

paul.skibum wrote:

Or before filming myself demonstrating poor shifting technique.

Still doesn't explain why he doesn't have this issue on any other bike.

Thanks Angus, You seem to be getting the point rather than bashing me for bad technique and being an Orange and BMW owner. Bitterness is a hard thing to live with I guess.

I'm President of The Bad Technique Club so I don't hold that against anyone!

M9DBO

Update: The test that ends my testing.

I dug out my 18 year old Giant ATX that has been dormat at the back of the garage for 5 or 6 years. Just done the same route on both back to back. So that's a brand new £3k Orange Five and an 18 year old Giant that's worth nothing as scrap.

On the flat for 1/4 mile the Orange was changing up (not smoothly) from 24t to 32t up front. Tested on various cogs on rear, then I turned right into the 'slightly' steeper incline, wouldnt change to 32t. In any rear gear.

The Giant did this no problem what so ever. Now the gearing on the Giant is a 3x9 set up, SRAM 7.0 (again this kit is almost 20 years old). On all parts of this quick route, changed up from 1 to 2 to 3, no problem at all. A bit crunchy due to age and dirt, but on all counts no issues what so ever.

So, it's not the fact I have a BMW, not the fact my gloves are a fastidious, or that I don't know how to change gear.

This 2x10 Shimano set up, that is the lastest technology on a bloody expensive bike, cannot handle changes that my relic Giant can.

The Orange Five is being delivered back to All Terrain Cycles as soon as I can get it there.

Thanks for all of your help and input guys. I knew it wasn't me.

I will give and update in due course.

Angus Young

Super frustrating when you just want to play with your new toy.

Chunkers1980

You and/or the set-up HAVE to be doing something wrong.

M9DBO

Angus Young wrote:

Super frustrating when you just want to play with your new toy.

Man, I can't even tell you. I'm absolutely furious. Seriously. I know in the scheme of things I'm pretty lucky to be able to buy such a bike. Like many I work bloody hard for my money and as we all know it doesn't come easy. It sticks in my throat when you buy something and it doesn't work.

kajjal

The only other thing I can think of is the front mech is not in the right position from where it attaches to the frame and over hangs the chain rings. If this is wrong gear changes can be very poor. Also are there any signs of it being bent or damaged?

M9DBO

Kajjal wrote:

The only other thing I can think of is the front mech is not in the right position from where it attaches to the frame and over hangs the chain rings. If this is wrong gear changes can be very poor. Also are there any signs of it being bent or damaged?

Thanks for the thoughts Kajjal, I'm not sure. I'm not really well versed on this, so I'm taking it back later this week. I do not want to attempt to try to second guess any longer. It's not working as it should, so it's going back. Thanks anyway. Michael.

paul.skibum

Take 5 minutes to adjust the f**king limiter screws, what works on a work stand at the shop may not work with the suspension under load. All you need to do is make sure the limiter screw is pushing the chain to the right f**king place to shift. Adjusting the cable as you ride does nothing if the limiter is stopping the mech moving.

M9DBO wrote:

Bitterness is a hard thing to live with I guess.

What do I have to be bitter about? I have a car and bike that work.

I also know how to fix both of them if they don't.

paul.skibum

Just so no one can accuse me of not being helpful:

http://www.parktool.com/blog/repair-help/front-derailleur-adjustments

http://www.bmw.com/com/en/insights/technology/technology_guide/articles/start_button.html?source=categories&article=start_button

M9DBO

paul.skibum wrote:

Take 5 minutes to adjust the f**king limiter screws, what works on a work stand at the shop may not work with the suspension under load. All you need to do is make sure the limiter screw is pushing the chain to the right f**king place to shift. Adjusting the cable as you ride does nothing if the limiter is stopping the mech moving.

M9DBO wrote:

Bitterness is a hard thing to live with I guess.

What do I have to be bitter about? I have a car and bike that work.

I also know how to fix both of them if they don't.

I dont know what the limiter screws are. If they are the two little crub screws, then the guy at the bike shop told me NEVER to adjust those. Like, EVER.

FishFish

paul.skibum wrote:

Just so no one can accuse me of not being helpful:

http://www.parktool.com/blog/repair-help/front-derailleur-adjustments

http://www.bmw.com/com/en/insights/technology/technology_guide/articles/start_button.html?source=categories&article=start_button

Thanks and you are not helpful!

Angus Young

paul.skibum wrote:

what works on a work stand at the shop may not work with the suspension under load.

Is that your idea of service then, adjusting on a stand and just hoping it works out on the trail?

cooldad

Angus Young wrote:

paul.skibum wrote:

what works on a work stand at the shop may not work with the suspension under load.

Is that your idea of service then, adjusting on a stand and just hoping it works out on the trail?

Obviously not or he wouldn't have made that point.
But it might be the opinion of the shop.

cooldad

M9DBO wrote:

paul.skibum wrote:

Take 5 minutes to adjust the f**king limiter screws, what works on a work stand at the shop may not work with the suspension under load. All you need to do is make sure the limiter screw is pushing the chain to the right f**king place to shift. Adjusting the cable as you ride does nothing if the limiter is stopping the mech moving.

M9DBO wrote:

Bitterness is a hard thing to live with I guess.

What do I have to be bitter about? I have a car and bike that work.

I also know how to fix both of them if they don't.

I dont know what the limiter screws are. If they are the two little crub screws, then the guy at the bike shop told me NEVER to adjust those. Like, EVER.

That's the same guy who can't set up a front mech?
May I suggest a second opinion?

paul.skibum

M9DBO wrote:

paul.skibum wrote:

Take 5 minutes to adjust the f**king limiter screws, what works on a work stand at the shop may not work with the suspension under load. All you need to do is make sure the limiter screw is pushing the chain to the right f**king place to shift. Adjusting the cable as you ride does nothing if the limiter is stopping the mech moving.

M9DBO wrote:

Bitterness is a hard thing to live with I guess.

What do I have to be bitter about? I have a car and bike that work.

I also know how to fix both of them if they don't.

I dont know what the limiter screws are. If they are the two little crub screws, then the guy at the bike shop told me NEVER to adjust those. Like, EVER.

OK, so the grub or limited screws set the high and low positions of the mech. On a 2 speed set up as you have they are pretty easy to set up correctly. All you have to do is make sure the low allows the chain to be derailed onto the smaller cog and that the high allows the mech to push the chain up onto the larger cog and that it stops moving in both cases before it gets to a point where it throws the chain off the ring.

In a repair stand this can sometimes feel like it has been achieved with the suspension not underload and feel like it is crisp and clean shifting. Indeed, you say yours works when not being pedalled under significant load.

It is often the case a bike builder or mechanic does not have the opportunity to put all bikes through a road test and even if they do it might be that its still only a light pedal around a car park and still with the suspension not significantly under load, especially if the mechanic is a spotty teenager weighing 50kg and the owner is a larger built gentleman with the suspension set up accordingly - in those cases the rear shock may as well be locked out so no chain growth is being exhibited which may again alter the shifting characteristics of the mech.

I suggest your high limiter needs to be adjusted to allow the mech to push the chain further to the right (as you are looking at it from a seated position). However that adjustment in itself may not give you crisp shifting, you may also need to adjust the low limiter to make sure you get enough movement of the mech from a single throw of the thumb adjuster.

Triples are harder to adjust correctly and definitely on both front mechs I would never adjust the limiters after they are set until I either change the mech or the cranks, unless I was feeling particularly frisky.

The adjustments are best made with the chain off and you may need to release the cable and reclamp it to allow the cable to be reset to correct position. If you have the chain off, could be a good time to check directional use but like I say I think that might be a red herring.

When I first got my bike last year, despite knowing it had been built by the simian underlings at the Whistler owned bike shop, I didn't check over the gears or brakes and went for a ride, first hill I came to I changed into the granny ring on the front and the chain was thrown off the ring and took a chunk out of the carbon fibre bottom bracket shell. Bike shops aren't perfect and its always worth giving your bike a once over and knowing how things work before you ride. As another aside, my new bikes brakes were set up the wrong way round too.

paul.skibum

I did some looking into this.

I found on the internet, reference to 7901, 6701 and 5701 being the Shimano Asymmetrical chains which would have a logo on one plate which should face outward which are all Road chains. A specific search for MTB chains shows that the XTR M981 10 speed chain is asymmetrical. So there are some unidirectional chains out there but only XTR. I doubt his bike is fitted with them as the other gearing is Deore but worth a quick check I guess.

loudog

M9DBO wrote:

paul.skibum wrote:

Take 5 minutes to adjust the f**king limiter screws, what works on a work stand at the shop may not work with the suspension under load. All you need to do is make sure the limiter screw is pushing the chain to the right f**king place to shift. Adjusting the cable as you ride does nothing if the limiter is stopping the mech moving.

M9DBO wrote:

Bitterness is a hard thing to live with I guess.

What do I have to be bitter about? I have a car and bike that work.

I also know how to fix both of them if they don't.

I dont know what the limiter screws are. If they are the two little crub screws, then the guy at the bike shop told me NEVER to adjust those. Like, EVER.

Or what? Do you think it's going to explode? Forget the spotty twerps at the bike shop. If your mates' works and yours doesn't, go onto the park tools site, check out how to set up front mech and sort it yourself. It's easy once you start and will help you understand your bike better. It's clearly the only way your going to have it set up properly.

But I should also add, I too would be disgruntled if you picked up a brand new bike that had shifting issues from the start...

M9DBO

paul.skibum wrote:

M9DBO wrote:

paul.skibum wrote:

Take 5 minutes to adjust the f**king limiter screws, what works on a work stand at the shop may not work with the suspension under load. All you need to do is make sure the limiter screw is pushing the chain to the right f**king place to shift. Adjusting the cable as you ride does nothing if the limiter is stopping the mech moving.

OK, so the grub or limited screws set the high and low positions of the mech. On a 2 speed set up as you have they are pretty easy to set up correctly. All you have to do is make sure the low allows the chain to be derailed onto the smaller cog and that the high allows the mech to push the chain up onto the larger cog and that it stops moving in both cases before it gets to a point where it throws the chain off the ring.

In a repair stand this can sometimes feel like it has been achieved with the suspension not underload and feel like it is crisp and clean shifting. Indeed, you say yours works when not being pedalled under significant load.

It is often the case a bike builder or mechanic does not have the opportunity to put all bikes through a road test and even if they do it might be that its still only a light pedal around a car park and still with the suspension not significantly under load, especially if the mechanic is a spotty teenager weighing 50kg and the owner is a larger built gentleman with the suspension set up accordingly - in those cases the rear shock may as well be locked out so no chain growth is being exhibited which may again alter the shifting characteristics of the mech.

I suggest your high limiter needs to be adjusted to allow the mech to push the chain further to the right (as you are looking at it from a seated position). However that adjustment in itself may not give you crisp shifting, you may also need to adjust the low limiter to make sure you get enough movement of the mech from a single throw of the thumb adjuster.

Triples are harder to adjust correctly and definitely on both front mechs I would never adjust the limiters after they are set until I either change the mech or the cranks, unless I was feeling particularly frisky.

The adjustments are best made with the chain off and you may need to release the cable and reclamp it to allow the cable to be reset to correct position. If you have the chain off, could be a good time to check directional use but like I say I think that might be a red herring.

When I first got my bike last year, despite knowing it had been built by the simian underlings at the Whistler owned bike shop, I didn't check over the gears or brakes and went for a ride, first hill I came to I changed into the granny ring on the front and the chain was thrown off the ring and took a chunk out of the carbon fibre bottom bracket shell. Bike shops aren't perfect and its always worth giving your bike a once over and knowing how things work before you ride. As another aside, my new bikes brakes were set up the wrong way round too.

So, after some slight adjustment on the outside screw last night, it seemed to be 'better'. I'm going to try a bit more this morning. Hold the line...