Front Ring Changing problems on Orange Five NOW RESOLVED...

M9DBO

So, last weekend picked up my brand new Orange Five Mk2 from All Terrain Cycles in Bradford. http://www.allterraincycles.co.uk/

See here...viewtopic.php?f=10017&t=13028815

So, after just one week and less than 2 rides (due to front mech not chaigng up) had to drive back to All Terrain Cycles in Bradford to get one of the mechanics to check and re-adjust the front derailleur. After 10 mintes and a test ride in the car park this morning all was well and the bike was back on top of the car and off I went back home (a 40 mile round trip and and hour and a half later I might add)

Got ready went out and yet again, under load/pressure, the mech wouldn't change up to the large front ring. I live surrounded by hills and once I get to a medium incline I want to be in a big gear, out of the saddle and power up. Is that too much to ask from a £3k bike?

I call All Terrain Cycles back and 'gently wispered' my utter frustration and they want the bike back AGAIN. "There must be a fault, we'll have to speak to Orange and Shimano about it" Are they serious?

A one week old £3k Orange Five that won't change up on a medium incline to allow me to get a big gear and get out of the saddle. WTF?

Where do you think I stand on this? I'm within my 14 days on interest Free Credit via V12, but It was a specific option build and I'm just thinking whether I could reject the bike?

Really not sure what to do. I've waited years to get an Orange Five and after signing on the line and parting with a £600 deposit I now have a bike that won't change gears.

Gutted.

kajjal

Generally trying to change gear under real constant power on a mountain bike at best leads to some crunching of the gears.

Does it change smoothly when you are off the bike?
Does it change smoothly on the flat once you have got the speed up and you let the power drop a little when you change gear?

M9DBO

Kajjal wrote:

Generally trying to change gear under real constant power on a mountain bike at best leads to some crunching of the gears.

Does it change smoothly when you are off the bike?
Does it change smoothly on the flat once you have got the speed up and you let the power drop a little when you change gear?

It changes well off the bike. Fine on the flat, but riding on 'hardly any incline' in doesn't move up. I'm not trying to change it when standing and/or already under pressure, I mean; as I'm coming to a steep incline but still in the saddle, It won't change up to allow me to stand and power up. I've been riding my mates Five for 8 months on the same route and never had any issues at all.

lawman

While it's no excuse for it not working, this is just one of the reasons front mechs on MTBs should be a thing of the past. Tbf I work in a bike shop and they are largely at the mercy of whoever supplies the product to them when something like this happens and a component and/or bike is faulty. Sadly there isn't much they can do other than try to get it sorted for you as soon as they can.

I'd enquire about getting the drivetrain converted to a single chainring setup if you're continuously unhappy with it. Much simpler, lighter and more in keeping with the Five's and indeed any other modern trail bikes intentions and intended uses.

Alternatively I recommend not buying a bike made of recycled scaffolding :P

M9DBO

lawman wrote:

While it's no excuse for it not working, this is just one of the reasons front mechs on MTBs should be a thing of the past. Tbf I work in a bike shop and they are largely at the mercy of whoever supplies the product to them when something like this happens and a component and/or bike is faulty. Sadly there isn't much they can do other than try to get it sorted for you as soon as they can.

I'd enquire about getting the drivetrain converted to a single chainring setup if you're continuously unhappy with it. Much simpler, lighter and more in keeping with the Five's and indeed any other modern trail bikes intentions and intended uses.

Alternatively I recommend not buying a bike made of recycled scaffolding :P

Ha. Well maybe that might be an option. My issue is that my mates 2-3 year old Five copes well with this route. Why doesn't mine? The latest version. I await to hear what ATC do about it. They have been great with me this far. They now have my cash. I have an issue. Always a good test of a business's cusotmer service levels. We shall see.

Angus Young

lawman wrote:

I'd enquire about getting the drivetrain converted to a single chainring setup if you're continuously unhappy with it. Much simpler, lighter and more in keeping with the Five's and indeed any other modern trail bikes intentions and intended uses.

Although it in no way answers your issue, a big thumbs up for single rings. Getting rid of the front shifter is like letting out a big breath you've been holding for too long.

M9DBO

Angus Young wrote:

lawman wrote:

I'd enquire about getting the drivetrain converted to a single chainring setup if you're continuously unhappy with it. Much simpler, lighter and more in keeping with the Five's and indeed any other modern trail bikes intentions and intended uses.

Although it in no way answers your issue, a big thumbs up for single rings. Getting rid of the front shifter is like letting out a big breath you've been holding for too long.

My biggest worry is that I would miss some of the range of gearing on a 2x or 3x set up. I've always had a 3x set up and obvs my latest experience of a 2x set up is not great (albeit it may be a fault). I'm a year back into MTB and not at peak fitness yet, far from it. What do you think any downsides would be for me going single ring? and what brand and model would you recommend?

rockmonkeysc

Front mech are just rubbish. They are very difficult to set spot on and very temperamental.
It's very normal for gears to need adjustment after a couple rides, if you can't do it yourself then it's best to buy a bike from a shop local to you.

kajjal

M9DBO wrote:

Kajjal wrote:

Generally trying to change gear under real constant power on a mountain bike at best leads to some crunching of the gears.

Does it change smoothly when you are off the bike?
Does it change smoothly on the flat once you have got the speed up and you let the power drop a little when you change gear?

It changes well off the bike. Fine on the flat, but riding on 'hardly any incline' in doesn't move up. I'm not trying to change it when standing and/or already under pressure, I mean; as I'm coming to a steep incline but still in the saddle, It won't change up to allow me to stand and power up. I've been riding my mates Five for 8 months on the same route and never had any issues at all.

In that case they need to fix it. Typical causes are :-

Limit screws
Setting shifting properly
Cable sticking
Mech needs the four pivots oiling (mine did this and the changing was appalling until oiled.)

I do alot of remote xc riding and 2x10 works very well for me. Use the big chain ring most of the time with the small on long steep climbs. Unlike a single chainring it gives me more closer gears to use which makes riding smoother for me.

paul.skibum

I am a little confused - so you are riding along, you get to a hill and you change up to a bigger ring at the front to power up the hill? What gear are you in at the back? What were you riding on before you got to the hill, a gentler incline? Downhill? Flat?

I enjoy a good pedal out of the saddle to get up hills, although typically on the hardtail rather than the full suss, but I dont think when I had a triple I ever shifted into the 48t on the front to do it up a hill - surely if its a moderate incline a 32t and 11t (rear) would be more than enough of a grunt up pretty much anything?

I used the 48t to get up to speed on downhills or long flat road sections or to aid taking up chain slack (before clutches and so on).

The reason it changes ok on flat and in a stand is you arent supposed to change gears under heavy power such as uphill.

paul.skibum

Didn't notice we were talking 2x10 but still I dont see why you'd be in the small ring and being going up to the big to go up hill. Whatever you were on before must have been easy enough to ride in the big too surely?

I am going to say that All Terrain and Orange and Shimano are not to blame for the problems this user is encountering.

M9DBO

paul.skibum wrote:

I am going to say that All Terrain and Orange and Shimano are not to blame for the problems this user is encountering.

I'm pleased you have enlightened us with your opinion. So, I shouldn't be able to change from the 24 ring to the 32 ring when I want to? That's in the manual is it?, that I can only change to the big ring in certain conditions?

M9DBO

In an effort to not act like a spoilt brat, I'm going out later and will try the route using all of the cassette gears whilst staying in the 32t. If the range on that works for me on the local 'quick' route I do, then fair enough. One more try...

lawman

M9DBO wrote:

In an effort to not act like a spoilt brat, I'm going out later and will try the route using all of the cassette gears whilst staying in the 32t. If the range on that works for me on the local 'quick' route I do, then fair enough. One more try...

if you can do that, 1x is the way to go. Fit a 32t narrow/wide chainring and a cassette expander such as hope T-rex and leave the front mech behind. Honestly it's the best thing to do, you may even be able to get All Terrain to cover the cost of it for you given the situation

Lewis A

M9DBO wrote:

paul.skibum wrote:

I am going to say that All Terrain and Orange and Shimano are not to blame for the problems this user is encountering.

I'm pleased you have enlightened us with your opinion. So, I shouldn't be able to change from the 24 ring to the 32 ring when I want to? That's in the manual is it?, that I can only change to the big ring in certain conditions?

You might not expect to shift to a bigger chainring if you're in the largest ring on the cassette. Because that would be dumb.

Angus Young

M9DBO wrote:

I'm a year back into MTB and not at peak fitness yet, far from it. What do you think any downsides would be for me going single ring? and what brand and model would you recommend?

I'm not nearly knowledgeable enough to start advising on specifics on stuff like this (there are plenty her who are, though). But what I will say is...

There's lots of ways to go about it, from simple range expanders to full on "Let me help myself to the contents of your wallet, Sir." set ups.

For me, I've yet to sort the back end out (busy as hell at work) so I'm in a sort of halfway house. I've ditched the front mech and fitted a 34T up front. Haven't tackled the back yet and have yet to decide what I'm going to do there (though I'm prone to terrible bouts of GAS so I'll probably spend more than I really need to...). Also, my shifter won't go into the biggest ring at the back and I can't really be bothered to fiddle with that as everything is going to change back there shortly. So, not an ideal set up right now by any means. And I still absolutely love it!

At the moment I am being defeated by a few more hills than I might have previously (though I'm not in the best of shape) but I'm pretty sure that sorting the back end out will more than sort that. So, done properly, I can see no downsides at all, only upsides. Not having to think about that left shifter just makes the whole riding experience more relaxed. Until you've gotten rid of it you don't realise how it sits in the back of your mind, even if you're not consciously thinking about it. Your mind is always trying to keep a mental note of where you are on the front rings, whether you realise it or not. Once you get rid of the front shifter there's nothing think about - if it's too hard, push your thumb, if it's too easy, pull your finger. I did it about 4 months ago and I'm weirdly enjoying every gear change I make, still. Besides, I always found the lower gears oddly ineffective - still have to put loads of effort in and don't seem to get very far in return.

Ever worked in an office with a photocopier in the room? That quiet hum most of them make? You sit there all day and you don't even notice it... then at the end of the day someone switches off the machine and you let out a breath as you relax a little, suddenly realising how much that hum had been bothering you all day. That's what getting rid of the front shifter is like.

M9DBO

http://vid1004.photobucket.com/albums/a ... s6tfvz.mp4

Just done a video. Not the best video but you can see where I turn into a medium incline whilst still in the saddle and after locking out the RockShox, I then sit down and try to change the front up to the 32t ring. You can hear it struggling to change. After a couple of tries you can see that as soon as I turn and head back down, it switches straight away.

You have to understand that although I sound out of breath (so unfit) this is not a serious incline until a bit further up, but I prefer to get in a big gear at this point and cycle it out of the saddle. Any thoughts on this would be welcome. I just want to be able to get in the big ring at this point and can't believe that is causing the front mech so much issue. If it can't handle this then what about when i'm throwing something more serious at it?

Cheers, Michael

cooldad

Pointless to pedal at that speed, but change while you still have some cadence.

But you must think you have thighs like the Hulk.

JBA

Changing up to the big ring under load is never particularly smooth.
Why are changing UP to go up a hill anyway? I don't understand the logic of riding on the middle ring on the flat and then changing to the big ring to go up a hill.
You're better off using the gears to maintain a decent cadence and spin a bit.

M9DBO

JBA wrote:

Changing up to the big ring under load is never particularly smooth.
Why are changing UP to go up a hill anyway? I don't understand the logic of riding on the middle ring on the flat and then changing to the big ring to go up a hill.
You're better off using the gears to maintain a decent cadence and spin a bit.

Okay, so on hills like this I prefer to get in a big gear and stand up. That is how I prefer to climb this hill. That should have no bearing though on why the front mech won't change in these conditions.

Angus Young

M9DBO wrote:

JBA wrote:

Changing up to the big ring under load is never particularly smooth.
Why are changing UP to go up a hill anyway? I don't understand the logic of riding on the middle ring on the flat and then changing to the big ring to go up a hill.
You're better off using the gears to maintain a decent cadence and spin a bit.

Okay, so on hills like this I prefer to get in a big gear and stand up. That is how I prefer to climb this hill. That should have no bearing though on why the front mech won't change in these conditions.

I agree, odd decisions or not as far as riding style goes, your gears should change. Mine change fine no matter how daft my gear change choice.

cooldad

Any front mech will struggle at 2 RPM

paul.skibum

I watched the video and I still think your use of gears is bizarre and flawed technique. If you shifted to the 32t on the flat bit before taking the right turn, anticipating the climb and the fact you are going to put power through the pedals it might shift easier?

I havent used a double except on the road bike but I can say that on my roadie if I did what you are attempting it wouldnt work. I used to have a triple on my Bronson (now 1x10) and I think I'd say that the gear shift from 22 to 32 would be less than perfect if I tried to shift onto the big ring whilst standing up and heaving on the pedals. I'd have to find a bike and try it again to be sure.

One thing I was thinking that might have an impact is that the 5 as a single pivot set up, I believe, experiences chain growth with the rear suspension being active, that being the case, with you hauling away on the pedals, your suspension is in use, the chain is taught and likely to be less capable of shifting on the front cog than might be found on a different suspension set up.

In the video, which cog are you on at the back? Looks like you shift down a couple of gears on the cassette at some point as you approach the farm buildings. Consider that the 5 largest rings on the cassette and the small front ring are to be used together and the 5 smallest rings on the cassette go with the bigger ring on the front. you could probably take a couple of gears extra in either ring but if you try to operate to that rule you might help your shifting and prolong the life of your drivechain.

To illustrate, if you consider the ratios in play here, you have a 24t ring and a 32t ring. At the back the cogs run 36, 32, 28, 24, 21, 19, 17, 15, 13, 11. So in the small ring at the front and 7th largest at back you have a 1:1 ratio - from there up through the 28, 32 and 36 cogs is where you should be running the smallest ring as that is where you get the benefit from having that extra ring.

I still dont blame Shimano or All Terrain, I maybe put a little blame on Orange for the suspension issue I mention.

If your front shifting works on the flat and not underload, go out and practice shifting under increasing load conditions, is there a point where the problem shows up more? ie it works sitting spinning, it doesnt work hauling away on the gears standing.

M9DBO

cooldad wrote:

Any front mech will struggle at 2 RPM

Not on any other bike I've riden. Just this one. I've not changed my riding technique just the bike.

M9DBO

paul.skibum wrote:

I watched the video and I still think your use of gears is bizarre and flawed technique. If you shifted to the 32t on the flat bit before taking the right turn, anticipating the climb and the fact you are going to put power through the pedals it might shift easier?

I havent used a double except on the road bike but I can say that on my roadie if I did what you are attempting it wouldnt work. I used to have a triple on my Bronson (now 1x10) and I think I'd say that the gear shift from 22 to 32 would be less than perfect if I tried to shift onto the big ring whilst standing up and heaving on the pedals. I'd have to find a bike and try it again to be sure.

One thing I was thinking that might have an impact is that the 5 as a single pivot set up, I believe, experiences chain growth with the rear suspension being active, that being the case, with you hauling away on the pedals, your suspension is in use, the chain is taught and likely to be less capable of shifting on the front cog than might be found on a different suspension set up.

In the video, which cog are you on at the back? Looks like you shift down a couple of gears on the cassette at some point as you approach the farm buildings. Consider that the 5 largest rings on the cassette and the small front ring are to be used together and the 5 smallest rings on the cassette go with the bigger ring on the front. you could probably take a couple of gears extra in either ring but if you try to operate to that rule you might help your shifting and prolong the life of your drivechain.

To illustrate, if you consider the ratios in play here, you have a 24t ring and a 32t ring. At the back the cogs run 36, 32, 28, 24, 21, 19, 17, 15, 13, 11. So in the small ring at the front and 7th largest at back you have a 1:1 ratio - from there up through the 28, 32 and 36 cogs is where you should be running the smallest ring as that is where you get the benefit from having that extra ring.

I still dont blame Shimano or All Terrain, I maybe put a little blame on Orange for the suspension issue I mention.

If your front shifting works on the flat and not underload, go out and practice shifting under increasing load conditions, is there a point where the problem shows up more? ie it works sitting spinning, it doesnt work hauling away on the gears standing.

it wont change on the flat-ish section before I turn right either. I wasn't atempting to change stood up. With plenty of momentum, seated, it still doesn't change up. Unless it's flat or downhill.

schmako

Either take it to the/a shop and have them adjust the mech, learn how to adjust a mech - check the park tools website (2x10 is easier to sort than 3xwhatever too) or go 1x10.

Had zero issues with 2x10 on my new bike (also had no front mech issues on my patriot 2x9), really liking it especially considering my old xc bikes gears (mech, derailleur, cable, chain, cassette, cranks) were all needing replaced/serviced.

kajjal

You seem to be continually fiddling with the gear adustment which won't help you.

Check the web for guides on how to correctly setup a front mech. Since the shop setup the front mech it should be about right. A quick setup is adjust the mech so when you are off the bike it just fails to shift into the big chainring. Then note how much you have to turn the adjuster to make it just start to shift just beyond the top ring (not so far the chain falls off). Then turn it back half as much to find a rough clear changing setup. If it won't go too far either way the limit screws are not set correctly.

Make sure you take your time doing this and then only make minor adjustments as needed.

rockmonkeysc

The problem is with the rider, not the bike.

Angus Young

RockmonkeySC wrote:

The problem is with the rider, not the bike.

And yet he's already stated that he's ridden another version of the same bike without issue nor any trouble with other bikes.

M9DBO

RockmonkeySC wrote:

The problem is with the rider, not the bike.

I ride down my road and it changes up no issue. I turn and cycle up the road and it refuses to change up. Maybe my finger works differently when I'm going in a different direction.

M9DBO

Angus Young wrote:

RockmonkeySC wrote:

The problem is with the rider, not the bike.

And yet he's already stated that he's ridden another version of the same bike without issue nor any trouble with other bikes.

Thanks Angus. Maybe at age 44 and almost 40 years of cycling I may need to go back to complete a cycling proficiency course.