BREXIT - Is This Really Still Rumbling On? 😴

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  • surrey_commuter
    surrey_commuter Posts: 18,867
    Coopster the 1st wrote:
    Surrey Commuter wrote:
    Coopster the 1st wrote:
    Surrey Commuter wrote:
    Morning Coopster
    In the light of our universal agreement with Professor Dougan what is your opinion of the utter rubbish spoken by Boris and Co in the debate last night. In particular their claim that 60% of laws come from the EU and that we could negotiate 50 trade agreements (the prof says we have the capacity to do 1 or 2 at a time)

    Easy answer on the laws - 35 seconds of your time needed - Jeremy Paxman - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XU_SWwDX3O0

    And what timing you have to raise trade negotiations

    German industry says it would be “very, very foolish” if the EU imposes trade barriers on Britain in the event it votes to leave the European Union.
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/business-36561059 (bottom of the page(06:07), no individual article for some reason. I would have thought this was important information)

    So common sense will prevail despite the scaremongering about this matter

    is that your way of saying you are now dismissing Prof Dougan?

    Are you disputing the figure of 59% laws coming from the EU in the period 2010-2013. Are you saying they have been getting less involved in our law making in recent time?

    I did not bother to look as I asked you a question and you replied by throwing up a smokescreen.

    I have a very low opinion of MPs in this country so also don't give a monkeys whether my laws are made in Brussels or Westminster
  • bobmcstuff
    bobmcstuff Posts: 11,435
    Coopster the 1st wrote:
    Surrey Commuter wrote:
    Coopster the 1st wrote:
    Surrey Commuter wrote:
    Morning Coopster
    In the light of our universal agreement with Professor Dougan what is your opinion of the utter rubbish spoken by Boris and Co in the debate last night. In particular their claim that 60% of laws come from the EU and that we could negotiate 50 trade agreements (the prof says we have the capacity to do 1 or 2 at a time)

    Easy answer on the laws - 35 seconds of your time needed - Jeremy Paxman - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XU_SWwDX3O0

    And what timing you have to raise trade negotiations

    German industry says it would be “very, very foolish” if the EU imposes trade barriers on Britain in the event it votes to leave the European Union.
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/business-36561059 (bottom of the page(06:07), no individual article for some reason. I would have thought this was important information)

    So common sense will prevail despite the scaremongering about this matter

    is that your way of saying you are now dismissing Prof Dougan?

    Are you disputing the figure of 59% laws coming from the EU in the period 2010-2013. Are you saying they have been getting less involved in our law making in recent time?

    The other issue is of course that a lot of the rules and regulations which come down from Europe are heavily influenced by us, which is a fact that seems to be ignored by the Leave people.

    My own personal in-depth experience is of the EU Offshore Safety Directive (2013/30/EU) which was essentially dictated by the UK offshore industry...
  • iPete
    iPete Posts: 6,076
    edited June 2016
    Been listening to Radio 4's More or Less today and on law making; over the same time period we've been outvoted 55 times but have voted yes on 2,500 occasions. So it seems we are in vast agreement with these policies, no?
  • coopster_the_1st
    coopster_the_1st Posts: 5,158
    ddraver wrote:
    Coopster the 1st wrote:
    So common sense will prevail despite the scaremongering about this matter

    I love the way you re still trying to pretend it's only the Remain campaign "scaremongering" :lol:

    You must be the only person left in the country...

    The way government has manipulated to get the result it wants has enraged me

    - The government pro-EU leaflet sent out 2 days before campaign spending rules came in
    - The unbalanced use of government resources e.g. the Treasury
    - The lack of independence of the governor of the BoE. Are we now going to hear the BoE views in the 2020 GE?

    n this referendum we have gone backwards with Government and politicians on both sides tell us what to do, expecting the electorate to follow, rather than giving us the information and letting the electorate decide. We are all poorer from this :(
  • coopster_the_1st
    coopster_the_1st Posts: 5,158
    edited June 2016
    Surrey Commuter wrote:
    Coopster the 1st wrote:
    Surrey Commuter wrote:
    Coopster the 1st wrote:
    Surrey Commuter wrote:
    Morning Coopster
    In the light of our universal agreement with Professor Dougan what is your opinion of the utter rubbish spoken by Boris and Co in the debate last night. In particular their claim that 60% of laws come from the EU and that we could negotiate 50 trade agreements (the prof says we have the capacity to do 1 or 2 at a time)

    Easy answer on the laws - 35 seconds of your time needed - Jeremy Paxman - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XU_SWwDX3O0

    And what timing you have to raise trade negotiations

    German industry says it would be “very, very foolish” if the EU imposes trade barriers on Britain in the event it votes to leave the European Union.
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/business-36561059 (bottom of the page(06:07), no individual article for some reason. I would have thought this was important information)

    So common sense will prevail despite the scaremongering about this matter

    is that your way of saying you are now dismissing Prof Dougan?

    Are you disputing the figure of 59% laws coming from the EU in the period 2010-2013. Are you saying they have been getting less involved in our law making in recent time?

    I did not bother to look as I asked you a question and you replied by throwing up a smokescreen.

    I have a very low opinion of MPs in this country so also don't give a monkeys whether my laws are made in Brussels or Westminster

    You asked me about a 24 minute video which I viewed but you did not give me the courtesy of 35 seconds where I disproved your point. I think that says more about you than me!
  • coopster_the_1st
    coopster_the_1st Posts: 5,158
    iPete wrote:
    Been listening to Radio 4's More or Less today and on law making; over the same time period we've been outvoted 55 times but have voted yes on 2,500 occasions. So it seems we are in vast agreement with these policies, no?

    But yet, every person says the EU needs reforming. This is not a vote of confidence for the structure of the EU and says we disagree with much of it

    I don't believe the EU will reform, particularly as it has so many issues with Euro based countries to resolve first hence it's simple that my position is to Leave
  • ddraver
    ddraver Posts: 26,697
    Coopster the 1st wrote:
    ddraver wrote:
    Coopster the 1st wrote:
    We are all poorer from this :(

    well we agree on one thing at least...
    We're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
    - @ddraver
  • iPete
    iPete Posts: 6,076
    Well I've enjoyed mostly lurking this thread and especially bendertherobots views on sovereignty but I don't think anyone here is left sitting on fence, so see you all on Friday.

    Suspect it'll be tin-foil hat talk about rigged votes by then.
  • kingstongraham
    kingstongraham Posts: 28,152
    Surrey Commuter wrote:
    KingstonGraham wrote:
    Surrey Commuter wrote:
    Morning Coopster
    In the light of our universal agreement with Professor Dougan what is your opinion of the utter rubbish spoken by Boris and Co in the debate last night. In particular their claim that 60% of laws come from the EU and that we could negotiate 50 trade agreements (the prof says we have the capacity to do 1 or 2 at a time)


    The 50 countries the EU has trade deals with include Syria, Haiti and Zimbabwe. The only "big deal" countries would be Mexico and South Korea.

    I reckon the UK could do a deal with St Kitts and Nevis or Barbados.

    but we would have to sort out the EU first so this would all be down the track

    But it doesn't really matter much. Is a non-issue.
    The relationship with the EU does. We would be the minor party in that negotiation, and that side doesn't generally get everything they want.
  • surrey_commuter
    surrey_commuter Posts: 18,867
    Coopster the 1st wrote:
    Surrey Commuter wrote:
    Coopster the 1st wrote:
    Surrey Commuter wrote:
    Coopster the 1st wrote:
    Surrey Commuter wrote:
    Morning Coopster
    In the light of our universal agreement with Professor Dougan what is your opinion of the utter rubbish spoken by Boris and Co in the debate last night. In particular their claim that 60% of laws come from the EU and that we could negotiate 50 trade agreements (the prof says we have the capacity to do 1 or 2 at a time)

    Easy answer on the laws - 35 seconds of your time needed - Jeremy Paxman - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XU_SWwDX3O0

    And what timing you have to raise trade negotiations

    German industry says it would be “very, very foolish” if the EU imposes trade barriers on Britain in the event it votes to leave the European Union.
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/business-36561059 (bottom of the page(06:07), no individual article for some reason. I would have thought this was important information)

    So common sense will prevail despite the scaremongering about this matter

    is that your way of saying you are now dismissing Prof Dougan?

    Are you disputing the figure of 59% laws coming from the EU in the period 2010-2013. Are you saying they have been getting less involved in our law making in recent time?

    I did not bother to look as I asked you a question and you replied by throwing up a smokescreen.

    I have a very low opinion of MPs in this country so also don't give a monkeys whether my laws are made in Brussels or Westminster

    You asked me about a 24 minute video which I viewed but you did not give me the courtesy of 35 seconds where I disproved your point. I think that says more about you than me!

    No I asked you a specific question and you answered by talking about other things.

    Now I have watched that heavily edited clip... it means nothing without the context of the rest of his sentence.

    It makes little sense to treat major Acts of Parliament such as the 457-page Health and Social Care Act 2012 which reformed the whole NHS the same as, say, three pages of technical regulations on VAT fraud.

    The House of Commons Library has warned that "there is no totally accurate, rational or useful way of calculating the percentage of national laws based on or influenced by the EU."

    So no set of figures can give us a good measure of the influence of the EU on law in the UK.
  • 4kicks
    4kicks Posts: 549
    Coopster the 1st wrote:
    ddraver wrote:
    Coopster the 1st wrote:
    So common sense will prevail despite the scaremongering about this matter

    I love the way you re still trying to pretend it's only the Remain campaign "scaremongering" :lol:

    You must be the only person left in the country...

    The way government has manipulated to get the result it wants has enraged me

    - The government pro-EU leaflet sent out 2 days before campaign spending rules came in
    - The unbalanced use of government resources e.g. the Treasury
    - The lack of independence of the governor of the BoE. Are we now going to hear the BoE views in the 2020 GE?

    n this referendum we have gone backwards with Government and politicians on both sides tell us what to do, expecting the electorate to follow, rather than giving us the information and letting the electorate decide. We are all poorer from this :(

    I too think its completely disgusting that people who actually know what they are talking about are allowed to, you know, talk. :roll: The fact is that the Brexit camp have ALREADY made up their minds, and any facts they have been provided with merely serve to cement their views that "The institutions is [/deliberate grammatical error] out to get them"
    Fitter....healthier....more productive.....
  • surrey_commuter
    surrey_commuter Posts: 18,867
    KingstonGraham wrote:
    Surrey Commuter wrote:
    KingstonGraham wrote:
    Surrey Commuter wrote:
    Morning Coopster
    In the light of our universal agreement with Professor Dougan what is your opinion of the utter rubbish spoken by Boris and Co in the debate last night. In particular their claim that 60% of laws come from the EU and that we could negotiate 50 trade agreements (the prof says we have the capacity to do 1 or 2 at a time)


    The 50 countries the EU has trade deals with include Syria, Haiti and Zimbabwe. The only "big deal" countries would be Mexico and South Korea.

    I reckon the UK could do a deal with St Kitts and Nevis or Barbados.

    but we would have to sort out the EU first so this would all be down the track

    But it doesn't really matter much. Is a non-issue.
    The relationship with the EU does. We would be the minor party in that negotiation, and that side doesn't generally get everything they want.

    so you were not convinced by Boris's tub-thumping rhetoric?
  • 4kicks
    4kicks Posts: 549
    Coopster the 1st wrote:
    Surrey Commuter wrote:
    Morning Coopster
    In the light of our universal agreement with Professor Dougan what is your opinion of the utter rubbish spoken by Boris and Co in the debate last night. In particular their claim that 60% of laws come from the EU and that we could negotiate 50 trade agreements (the prof says we have the capacity to do 1 or 2 at a time)

    Easy answer on the laws - 35 seconds of your time needed - Jeremy Paxman - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XU_SWwDX3O0

    And what timing you have to raise trade negotiations

    German industry says it would be “very, very foolish” if the EU imposes trade barriers on Britain in the event it votes to leave the European Union.
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/business-36561059 (bottom of the page(06:07), no individual article for some reason. I would have thought this was important information)

    So common sense will prevail despite the scaremongering about this matter
    Sorry but that's not how trade negotiations work, its not driven by "common sense", most are incremental and seemingly benign. There are political points to be gained by EU politicians with their own communities by, for example, insisting that non-EU fish imports be "quality checked" by a one-man and his dog outfit based, ideally, as far from the sea as possible, or another one that works well, used by the Japanese MITI a lot, is to "protect nascent industries" by aplpying a single prohibitory tariff, or declaring youghurt as something as a National strategic interest. Without the EU in place the only way to avoid these issues is either 1) to try and hash it out under the WTO, which is a confederation of clusterf**cks, or 2) to use economic might, of which we have little, to bash it through; as an aside, this is why comparisons with Norway and Switzerland are erroneous both countries had a resource which the EU countries needed and couldn't provide for themselves.
    Fitter....healthier....more productive.....
  • kingstongraham
    kingstongraham Posts: 28,152
    Surrey Commuter wrote:
    KingstonGraham wrote:
    Surrey Commuter wrote:
    KingstonGraham wrote:
    Surrey Commuter wrote:
    Morning Coopster
    In the light of our universal agreement with Professor Dougan what is your opinion of the utter rubbish spoken by Boris and Co in the debate last night. In particular their claim that 60% of laws come from the EU and that we could negotiate 50 trade agreements (the prof says we have the capacity to do 1 or 2 at a time)


    The 50 countries the EU has trade deals with include Syria, Haiti and Zimbabwe. The only "big deal" countries would be Mexico and South Korea.

    I reckon the UK could do a deal with St Kitts and Nevis or Barbados.

    but we would have to sort out the EU first so this would all be down the track

    But it doesn't really matter much. Is a non-issue.
    The relationship with the EU does. We would be the minor party in that negotiation, and that side doesn't generally get everything they want.

    so you were not convinced by Boris's tub-thumping rhetoric?

    I haven't watched any of the debates.

    Search Youtube for "Day Today Question Time". That programme was uncannily accurate.
  • coopster_the_1st
    coopster_the_1st Posts: 5,158
    4kicks wrote:
    Coopster the 1st wrote:
    Surrey Commuter wrote:
    Morning Coopster
    In the light of our universal agreement with Professor Dougan what is your opinion of the utter rubbish spoken by Boris and Co in the debate last night. In particular their claim that 60% of laws come from the EU and that we could negotiate 50 trade agreements (the prof says we have the capacity to do 1 or 2 at a time)

    Easy answer on the laws - 35 seconds of your time needed - Jeremy Paxman - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XU_SWwDX3O0

    And what timing you have to raise trade negotiations

    German industry says it would be “very, very foolish” if the EU imposes trade barriers on Britain in the event it votes to leave the European Union.
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/business-36561059 (bottom of the page(06:07), no individual article for some reason. I would have thought this was important information)

    So common sense will prevail despite the scaremongering about this matter
    Sorry but that's not how trade negotiations work, its not driven by "common sense", most are incremental and seemingly benign. There are political points to be gained by EU politicians with their own communities by, for example, insisting that non-EU fish imports be "quality checked" by a one-man and his dog outfit based, ideally, as far from the sea as possible, or another one that works well, used by the Japanese MITI a lot, is to "protect nascent industries" by aplpying a single prohibitory tariff, or declaring youghurt as something as a National strategic interest. Without the EU in place the only way to avoid these issues is either 1) to try and hash it out under the WTO, which is a confederation of clusterf**cks, or 2) to use economic might, of which we have little, to bash it through; as an aside, this is why comparisons with Norway and Switzerland are erroneous both countries had a resource which the EU countries needed and couldn't provide for themselves.

    I suggest a £62bn trade deficit is a huge resource for an economic area with a fragile economy. When 20% of all German cars are sold into the UK I suggest that is also a huge amount of influence from the inside. Any French industry, they are going to let politicians to get their way to hurt their industry?

    We're never going to agree on this as I am in the economic will is greater than political will camp.
  • veronese68
    veronese68 Posts: 27,815
    ddraver wrote:
    Coopster the 1st wrote:
    So common sense will prevail despite the scaremongering about this matter

    I love the way you re still trying to pretend it's only the Remain campaign "scaremongering" :lol:

    You must be the only person left in the country...
    If only that were the case...
    Kinesis Pro6
    Marin Nail Trail
    Cotic Solaris
  • surrey_commuter
    surrey_commuter Posts: 18,867
    Coopster the 1st wrote:
    4kicks wrote:
    Coopster the 1st wrote:
    Surrey Commuter wrote:
    Morning Coopster
    In the light of our universal agreement with Professor Dougan what is your opinion of the utter rubbish spoken by Boris and Co in the debate last night. In particular their claim that 60% of laws come from the EU and that we could negotiate 50 trade agreements (the prof says we have the capacity to do 1 or 2 at a time)

    Easy answer on the laws - 35 seconds of your time needed - Jeremy Paxman - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XU_SWwDX3O0

    And what timing you have to raise trade negotiations

    German industry says it would be “very, very foolish” if the EU imposes trade barriers on Britain in the event it votes to leave the European Union.
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/business-36561059 (bottom of the page(06:07), no individual article for some reason. I would have thought this was important information)

    So common sense will prevail despite the scaremongering about this matter
    Sorry but that's not how trade negotiations work, its not driven by "common sense", most are incremental and seemingly benign. There are political points to be gained by EU politicians with their own communities by, for example, insisting that non-EU fish imports be "quality checked" by a one-man and his dog outfit based, ideally, as far from the sea as possible, or another one that works well, used by the Japanese MITI a lot, is to "protect nascent industries" by aplpying a single prohibitory tariff, or declaring youghurt as something as a National strategic interest. Without the EU in place the only way to avoid these issues is either 1) to try and hash it out under the WTO, which is a confederation of clusterf**cks, or 2) to use economic might, of which we have little, to bash it through; as an aside, this is why comparisons with Norway and Switzerland are erroneous both countries had a resource which the EU countries needed and couldn't provide for themselves.

    I suggest a £62bn trade deficit is a huge resource for an economic area with a fragile economy. When 20% of all German cars are sold into the UK I suggest that is also a huge amount of influence from the inside. Any French industry, they are going to let politicians to get their way to hurt their industry?

    We're never going to agree on this as I am in the economic will is greater than political will camp.

    4kicks seems to know his onions - why did you not think to check his background and find out whether this is an area of expertise that he can use to enlighten us all?

    If we assume that you are both right then Germany will want to settle. The other 26 will be less bothered and that is when they will start quibbling over minor points.
  • gaffer_slow
    gaffer_slow Posts: 417
    iPete wrote:
    Well I've enjoyed mostly lurking this thread and especially bendertherobots views on sovereignty but I don't think anyone here is left sitting on fence, so see you all on Friday.

    Suspect it'll be tin-foil hat talk about rigged votes by then.

    The tin foil hats will go well with their swivel eyes.
  • bobmcstuff
    bobmcstuff Posts: 11,435
    Surrey Commuter wrote:
    Now I have watched that heavily edited clip... it means nothing without the context of the rest of his sentence.

    It makes little sense to treat major Acts of Parliament such as the 457-page Health and Social Care Act 2012 which reformed the whole NHS the same as, say, three pages of technical regulations on VAT fraud.

    The House of Commons Library has warned that "there is no totally accurate, rational or useful way of calculating the percentage of national laws based on or influenced by the EU."

    So no set of figures can give us a good measure of the influence of the EU on law in the UK.

    Especially when you try to consider the proportion of EU rules and regulations which we had a strong role in developing, as I mentioned above.
  • joenobody
    joenobody Posts: 563
    Coopster the 1st wrote:
    In this referendum we have gone backwards with Government and politicians on both sides tell us what to do, expecting the electorate to follow, rather than giving us the information and letting the electorate decide. We are all poorer from this :(
    Doesn't that say more about the electorate than the gov/politicians? I know I've been following up on the provided reasons for leaving and drawing my own conclusions. However, I know several people who still believe claims that are demonstrably wrong. In fact, while discussing immigration someone countered with "but what about Turkey". When I explained that they are a long way from joining, based on my investigation of their accession status, he came back with "you believe that rubbish?" The facts relating to their accession are easily found, yet this person chose to believe what he'd read in a newspaper (or, more likely, what his Dad told him) because it supported his point of view, and he clearly wasn't interested in searching out the truth himself.
  • joenobody
    joenobody Posts: 563
    Coopster the 1st wrote:
    20% of all German cars are sold into the UK
    When you flip that over to "80% of all German cars are sold outside of the UK" it doesn't sound quite so bad for the Germans...

    Personally I don't believe the predictions for renegotiation would be as bad as fellow Remainers claim. However, neither do I believe they'd be as good as the Leavers claim. Best hope is as good as we have now, with a likely outcome being less good than now, but not terrible. For which we'd give up our influence inside the EU?
  • 4kicks
    4kicks Posts: 549
    Coopster the 1st wrote:
    4kicks wrote:
    Coopster the 1st wrote:
    Surrey Commuter wrote:
    Morning Coopster
    In the light of our universal agreement with Professor Dougan what is your opinion of the utter rubbish spoken by Boris and Co in the debate last night. In particular their claim that 60% of laws come from the EU and that we could negotiate 50 trade agreements (the prof says we have the capacity to do 1 or 2 at a time)

    Easy answer on the laws - 35 seconds of your time needed - Jeremy Paxman - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XU_SWwDX3O0

    And what timing you have to raise trade negotiations

    German industry says it would be “very, very foolish” if the EU imposes trade barriers on Britain in the event it votes to leave the European Union.
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/business-36561059 (bottom of the page(06:07), no individual article for some reason. I would have thought this was important information)

    So common sense will prevail despite the scaremongering about this matter
    Sorry but that's not how trade negotiations work, its not driven by "common sense", most are incremental and seemingly benign. There are political points to be gained by EU politicians with their own communities by, for example, insisting that non-EU fish imports be "quality checked" by a one-man and his dog outfit based, ideally, as far from the sea as possible, or another one that works well, used by the Japanese MITI a lot, is to "protect nascent industries" by aplpying a single prohibitory tariff, or declaring youghurt as something as a National strategic interest. Without the EU in place the only way to avoid these issues is either 1) to try and hash it out under the WTO, which is a confederation of clusterf**cks, or 2) to use economic might, of which we have little, to bash it through; as an aside, this is why comparisons with Norway and Switzerland are erroneous both countries had a resource which the EU countries needed and couldn't provide for themselves.

    I suggest a £62bn trade deficit is a huge resource for an economic area with a fragile economy. When 20% of all German cars are sold into the UK I suggest that is also a huge amount of influence from the inside. Any French industry, they are going to let politicians to get their way to hurt their industry?

    We're never going to agree on this as I am in the economic will is greater than political will camp.
    Its not an "economic versus political" argument. Trade constraints, be they hard (duties) or soft (import regulations) always benefit the nation imposing them in the short run, But not in the long run. The point is almost all political legislation is short term focused cos politicians want to get reelected, and all decisions by politicians, even German ones, are by their nature political. ( as an aside, theres a reason why the first real book about Economics featured "the invisible hand"):.... . No-one looks at it as "how can I maintain the positive balance of trade for my country over the next twenty-five years¨, its how can I get the voters in the Bosch factory to vote for me next time round. The concept of economic principles triumphing political expediency is a false paradigm akin to unicorns being able to outrun shetland ponies. Only one thing exists. .
    Fitter....healthier....more productive.....
  • 4kicks
    4kicks Posts: 549
    And as an aside, wasnt it you who last night bereated Economists such as Carney and those at the treasury from getting involved in what you saw was the political process?
    Fitter....healthier....more productive.....
  • coopster_the_1st
    coopster_the_1st Posts: 5,158
    4kicks wrote:
    Its not an "economic versus political" argument. Trade constraints, be they hard (duties) or soft (import regulations) always benefit the nation imposing them in the short run, But not in the long run. The point is almost all political legislation is short term focused cos politicians want to get reelected, and all decisions by politicians, even German ones, are by their nature political. ( as an aside, theres a reason why the first real book about Economics featured "the invisible hand"):.... . No-one looks at it as "how can I maintain the positive balance of trade for my country over the next twenty-five years¨, its how can I get the voters in the Bosch factory to vote for me next time round. The concept of economic principles triumphing political expediency is a false paradigm akin to unicorns being able to outrun shetland ponies. Only one thing exists. .

    Let's take Bosch and Germany as your example

    Germany has federal elections in 2017

    Bosch has UK sales of £2.7bn, it's second biggest European market after Germany.

    Any negative political legislation will already be causing nervousness in Bosch employees if not job losses because of it. That will influence the vote as the employees will be seeing this.

    Bar your last sentence you have validated my reasoning.
  • coopster_the_1st
    coopster_the_1st Posts: 5,158
    4kicks wrote:
    And as an aside, wasnt it you who last night bereated Economists such as Carney and those at the treasury from getting involved in what you saw was the political process?

    It was Carney getting involved.

    The BoE were talking down the economy. I've never known this ever done before as it is obviously irresponsible.

    He does not know the outcome of the referendum.

    It is the same as Osborne saying "No" he does not have a plan for 24th June if we Brexit. He is putting getting the result he wants ahead of his responsibility to the country. Whatever results he wants he has to accept his responsibility. Shocking behaviour IMO as well as it being an obvious lie. :x
  • Bo Duke
    Bo Duke Posts: 1,058
    Great debate guys!
    'Performance analysis and Froome not being clean was a media driven story. I haven’t heard one guy in the peloton say a negative thing about Froome, and I haven’t heard a single person in the peloton suggest Froome isn’t clean.' TSP
  • ddraver
    ddraver Posts: 26,697
    Dougan on immigration - https://news.liverpool.ac.uk/2016/06/20 ... oes-viral/
    When it comes to the particular situation of Eastern European migrants, we are rarely reminded of the fact that the UK was one of only three Member States (the others being Ireland and Sweden) that chose not to impose transitional restrictions on the rights to free movement of new EU citizens during the “Big Bang” enlargement of 2004. We chose to let these people come here as we did; no one forced us to and we could have decided otherwise. Small wonder that many other Europeans regard the UK debate as rather hypocritical.
    It is also worth recalling that the accession of future Member States requires the unanimous agreement of the 28 governments plus their national ratification processes. The only large applicant is Turkey – and there is no realistic prospect of Turkey joining the EU within any of our lifetimes – not least since several countries have indicated that they would hold national referenda on any Turkish deal, obviously in the expectation that their populations would overwhelmingly reject it.”
    We're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
    - @ddraver
  • veronese68
    veronese68 Posts: 27,815
    Coopster the 1st wrote:
    It was Carney getting involved.
    ...
    He is putting getting the result he wants ahead of his responsibility to the country. Whatever results he wants he has to accept his responsibility. Shocking behaviour IMO
    Maybe he believes it's his duty to warn people as he believes, as do many others, that leaving would be that bad for the country. He is putting the country first with a stark warning people like you are happy to ignore. If we do vote leave and it all goes pear shaped you'll probably blame him for giving the warning, not people like you that ignored it because you think you know better. :roll:
    Kinesis Pro6
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  • TheBigBean
    TheBigBean Posts: 21,915
    ddraver wrote:
    Dougan on immigration - https://news.liverpool.ac.uk/2016/06/20 ... oes-viral/

    I struggle a bit with all the pundits (for want of a better word) that can only see arguments one way. This has meant the entire debate is a struggle for me. Dougan, despite his credentials, seems to fit into that category.
  • coopster_the_1st
    coopster_the_1st Posts: 5,158
    Veronese68 wrote:
    Coopster the 1st wrote:
    It was Carney getting involved.
    ...
    He is putting getting the result he wants ahead of his responsibility to the country. Whatever results he wants he has to accept his responsibility. Shocking behaviour IMO
    Maybe he believes it's his duty to warn people as he believes, as do many others, that leaving would be that bad for the country. He is putting the country first with a stark warning people like you are happy to ignore. If we do vote leave and it all goes pear shaped you'll probably blame him for giving the warning, not people like you that ignored it because you think you know better. :roll:

    I await his comments on the 2020 GE

    That would be entirely fair wouldn't it as it is in the countries interest? How can you not see a difference?

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