BREXIT - Is This Really Still Rumbling On? 😴
Comments
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Stevo, do you believe there is more red tape and paperwork for business before or after Brexit?0
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Commented on it a week ago. Gosh, a whole billion. 😮Stevo_666 said:1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
Pinnacle Monzonite
Part of the anti-growth coalition0 -
Nice try to turn my position into a binary that you created.Stevo_666 said:
So you're not in favour of ever more regulation?morstar said:
Would still be interesting the hear which inserted (by you) dots you connected to get there.Stevo_666 said:
It was my take from your post. You didn't need to say it explicitly.morstar said:
You need to explain your workings there for how I said more regulations = better.Stevo_666 said:
I see you're in the knee jerk 'more regulation = better' camp, which is no surprise. I have to deal with ever increasing amounts of this cr@p as part of my job and in my view the value add is patchy and limited. It's more effective at putting up prices and making politicians and bureaucrats feel important.morstar said:
If you have no red tape, those with the lowest standards of behaviour define how far you must sink in order to be competitive.Stevo_666 said:
So reduction of red tape is a bad thing in your view?skyblueamateur said:
It was discussed a few pages back. I think I pointed out that Brexit has caused export businesses more red tape then anything I can think of in at least the last 25 years so not sure whether this is one for the Brexit win box.Stevo_666 said:
Absolutely no problem with well written legislation thank you very much.
Kids up chimneys and all manner of exploitative behaviour is the logical outcome of being anti red tape for being antis sake.
Name a censored rule that’s going and I’ll celebrate its passing. Just being anti red tape as a principle is populist nonsense.
I simply explained why simply supporting a reduction in red tape without any specific detail is a vacuous position.
I have made no indication of supporting or dislike of ever more regulation.
I stated I don’t have a problem with well written regulation and will happily celebrate removal of bad regulation. ( sh1te was replaced with censored).
You need to explain why a vague anti red tape position is good seeing as you made the point it was something to celebrate.0 -
If not through parliament, how are they planning to change these laws?0
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There was definitely red tape that was an unnecessary burden on business such as Intrastat. I welcome the fact that post Brexit we don’t have to do this anymore as for small businesses it was a pain.morstar said:
Nice try to turn my position into a binary that you created.Stevo_666 said:
So you're not in favour of ever more regulation?morstar said:
Would still be interesting the hear which inserted (by you) dots you connected to get there.Stevo_666 said:
It was my take from your post. You didn't need to say it explicitly.morstar said:
You need to explain your workings there for how I said more regulations = better.Stevo_666 said:
I see you're in the knee jerk 'more regulation = better' camp, which is no surprise. I have to deal with ever increasing amounts of this cr@p as part of my job and in my view the value add is patchy and limited. It's more effective at putting up prices and making politicians and bureaucrats feel important.morstar said:
If you have no red tape, those with the lowest standards of behaviour define how far you must sink in order to be competitive.Stevo_666 said:
So reduction of red tape is a bad thing in your view?skyblueamateur said:
It was discussed a few pages back. I think I pointed out that Brexit has caused export businesses more red tape then anything I can think of in at least the last 25 years so not sure whether this is one for the Brexit win box.Stevo_666 said:
Absolutely no problem with well written legislation thank you very much.
Kids up chimneys and all manner of exploitative behaviour is the logical outcome of being anti red tape for being antis sake.
Name a censored rule that’s going and I’ll celebrate its passing. Just being anti red tape as a principle is populist nonsense.
I simply explained why simply supporting a reduction in red tape without any specific detail is a vacuous position.
I have made no indication of supporting or dislike of ever more regulation.
I stated I don’t have a problem with well written regulation and will happily celebrate removal of bad regulation. ( sh1te was replaced with censored).
You need to explain why a vague anti red tape position is good seeing as you made the point it was something to celebrate.
The fact this has been replaced with an unbelievable amount of paperwork due to the awful ‘deal’ they signed is my issue. Small export businesses are drowning in a sea of CI’s, packing lists, commodity codes, custom clearance forms and duty.
That is before even discussing the extra costs and my pet peeve UKCA.
I’ll be accused of moaning now and strangely being ‘pro red-tape’.0 -
I don't know, but presumably the same way that other regulations are changed. I don't think it is a good proposal though. Parliament can be made to vote on lots of things in one go.kingstongraham said:If not through parliament, how are they planning to change these laws?
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There's surely a lot of laws that were carried over from EU law that are more consequential than the angle of bend in a banana. This feels like taking power away from parliament.TheBigBean said:
I don't know, but presumably the same way that other regulations are changed. I don't think it is a good proposal though. Parliament can be made to vote on lots of things in one go.kingstongraham said:If not through parliament, how are they planning to change these laws?
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I can see both arguments. A lot of the rules arrived without a vote in parliament and having a vote on every slight variance in regulation would be too much; however, how do you draft a bill that is sufficiently tight it prevents abuse but covers all things Brexit?kingstongraham said:
There's surely a lot of laws that were carried over from EU law that are more consequential than the angle of bend in a banana. This feels like taking power away from parliament.TheBigBean said:
I don't know, but presumably the same way that other regulations are changed. I don't think it is a good proposal though. Parliament can be made to vote on lots of things in one go.kingstongraham said:If not through parliament, how are they planning to change these laws?
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Now, or longer term? The long term result is the more important one.skyblueamateur said:Stevo, do you believe there is more red tape and paperwork for business before or after Brexit?
"I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]0 -
Both.Stevo_666 said:
Now, or longer term? The long term result is the more important one.skyblueamateur said:Stevo, do you believe there is more red tape and paperwork for business before or after Brexit?
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Now - probably not a lot of difference overall. Long term - there will be less of a burden I think.skyblueamateur said:
Both.Stevo_666 said:
Now, or longer term? The long term result is the more important one.skyblueamateur said:Stevo, do you believe there is more red tape and paperwork for business before or after Brexit?
"I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]0 -
Sure, it's just that a billion is pretty trivial in the scheme of UK business. ~£250 per limited company. And this ignores all the added costs that skyblueamateur mentions above. It all feels a lot like the Levelling Up white paper. Vague hand-wavey promises of savings but no detail and no net benefit analysis.Stevo_666 said:1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
Pinnacle Monzonite
Part of the anti-growth coalition0 -
Is that 'gut feeling' or something more detailed?Stevo_666 said:
Now - probably not a lot of difference overall. Long term - there will be less of a burden I think.skyblueamateur said:
Both.Stevo_666 said:
Now, or longer term? The long term result is the more important one.skyblueamateur said:Stevo, do you believe there is more red tape and paperwork for business before or after Brexit?
Are there particular areas where you see scope for reduction in regulations? In my field the push is very much in the opposite direction, particularly in building regulation, both of products and services. This is independent of Brexit and more to do with the obvious failings of the current Building Regulations system.1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
Pinnacle Monzonite
Part of the anti-growth coalition0 -
I would disagree I’m afraid. As stated this has been the biggest increase in red-tape in my working life. Maybe different for FS but anyone else has seen a huge increase.Stevo_666 said:
Now - probably not a lot of difference overall. Long term - there will be less of a burden I think.skyblueamateur said:
Both.Stevo_666 said:
Now, or longer term? The long term result is the more important one.skyblueamateur said:Stevo, do you believe there is more red tape and paperwork for business before or after Brexit?
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Gut feeling. Do you have any info?rjsterry said:
Is that 'gut feeling' or something more detailed?Stevo_666 said:
Now - probably not a lot of difference overall. Long term - there will be less of a burden I think.skyblueamateur said:
Both.Stevo_666 said:
Now, or longer term? The long term result is the more important one.skyblueamateur said:Stevo, do you believe there is more red tape and paperwork for business before or after Brexit?
Are there particular areas where you see scope for reduction in regulations? In my field the push is very much in the opposite direction, particularly in building regulation, both of products and services. This is independent of Brexit and more to do with the obvious failings of the current Building Regulations system."I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]0 -
If you're, looking at import export as I recall, you have, then that probably has increased. I'm talking about all regs. We also have the benefit of not beiny subject to the future EU regs, of which there is always lots coming out. Its part of the EU's reason for existing to spew out regs.skyblueamateur said:
I would disagree I’m afraid. As stated this has been the biggest increase in red-tape in my working life. Maybe different for FS but anyone else has seen a huge increase.Stevo_666 said:
Now - probably not a lot of difference overall. Long term - there will be less of a burden I think.skyblueamateur said:
Both.Stevo_666 said:
Now, or longer term? The long term result is the more important one.skyblueamateur said:Stevo, do you believe there is more red tape and paperwork for business before or after Brexit?
"I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]0 -
In an evolving world, new regulations are inevitable.
AI, self driving cars, online abuse. Basically any new industry or evolution of society will introduce new regulations.
Name a regulation and it is reasonable to debate whether it’s good or bad with respect to that regulation.
To suggest red tape is a bad thing in and of itself as a principle or that GB doesn’t need them is either simplistic at best or possibly more sinister.0 -
Red tape is bad by definition. Regulation is not.1
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No, which is why I was asking. EU regulation wasn't something that impinged on our business to any great degree in the first place, so there is little to save.Stevo_666 said:
Gut feeling. Do you have any info?rjsterry said:
Is that 'gut feeling' or something more detailed?Stevo_666 said:
Now - probably not a lot of difference overall. Long term - there will be less of a burden I think.skyblueamateur said:
Both.Stevo_666 said:
Now, or longer term? The long term result is the more important one.skyblueamateur said:Stevo, do you believe there is more red tape and paperwork for business before or after Brexit?
Are there particular areas where you see scope for reduction in regulations? In my field the push is very much in the opposite direction, particularly in building regulation, both of products and services. This is independent of Brexit and more to do with the obvious failings of the current Building Regulations system.
I wondered if you had any examples where there was a significant burden and a probable reduction in that burden from diverging UK regulation.1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
Pinnacle Monzonite
Part of the anti-growth coalition0 -
This is just bollox. You can just as easily say part of the UK government's reason for existing is to spew out regulations.Stevo_666 said:
If you're, looking at import export as I recall, you have, then that probably has increased. I'm talking about all regs. We also have the benefit of not beiny subject to the future EU regs, of which there is always lots coming out. Its part of the EU's reason for existing to spew out regs.skyblueamateur said:
I would disagree I’m afraid. As stated this has been the biggest increase in red-tape in my working life. Maybe different for FS but anyone else has seen a huge increase.Stevo_666 said:
Now - probably not a lot of difference overall. Long term - there will be less of a burden I think.skyblueamateur said:
Both.Stevo_666 said:
Now, or longer term? The long term result is the more important one.skyblueamateur said:Stevo, do you believe there is more red tape and paperwork for business before or after Brexit?
1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
Pinnacle Monzonite
Part of the anti-growth coalition0 -
It's another of those terms which has been weaponised to suggest that all regulation is 'regulation gone mad'. But if you look at the vast bulk of progress in health and safety, in financial protection, and so on, it is the result of regulation/red tape. whatever you want to call it. And if you want to see why a lot of it is there, just look at the people who pushed the regulations as they were to the absolute limit, and beyond. Nearly all of it is reactive.TheBigBean said:Red tape is bad by definition. Regulation is not.
BTW, red tape originated in Wirksworth, at this factory. True story. (See, every day is a school day
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@skyblueamateur I think many of us service based desk jockeys would be very interested to hear your story on the impact of Brexit for you and your customers0
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With all that red tape, I'm surprised they got so much done.briantrumpet said:TheBigBean said:Red tape is bad by definition. Regulation is not.
BTW, red tape originated in Wirksworth, at this factory. True story. (See, every day is a school day )0 -
Fair point.TheBigBean said:Red tape is bad by definition. Regulation is not.
Although I’d argue the classification of a regulation as red tape is subjective.
What feels pointless and burdensome to one may be necessary to another.
I don’t think many regulations are implemented with a red tape flag attached to them.0 -
morstar said:
Fair point.TheBigBean said:Red tape is bad by definition. Regulation is not.
Although I’d argue the classification of a regulation as red tape is subjective.
What feels pointless and burdensome to one may be necessary to another.
I don’t think many regulations are implemented with a red tape flag attached to them.
That's rather what I was driving at, though I see its use as a pejorative term has a very long history...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_tape
I might have overstated Wirksworth's place in the scheme of things, though it did produce most of Whitehall's red tape at one stage.The two mills together employed 230; their weekly output was said to equal the circumference of the earth; Wirksworth was the main producer of red tape for Whitehall.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wirksworth
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They certainly produce a lot of the stuff, so while they would never put it in their mission statement, it's self evident. How else are they going to tell 27 diverse member states what to do?rjsterry said:
This is just bollox. You can just as easily say part of the UK government's reason for existing is to spew out regulations.Stevo_666 said:
If you're, looking at import export as I recall, you have, then that probably has increased. I'm talking about all regs. We also have the benefit of not beiny subject to the future EU regs, of which there is always lots coming out. Its part of the EU's reason for existing to spew out regs.skyblueamateur said:
I would disagree I’m afraid. As stated this has been the biggest increase in red-tape in my working life. Maybe different for FS but anyone else has seen a huge increase.Stevo_666 said:
Now - probably not a lot of difference overall. Long term - there will be less of a burden I think.skyblueamateur said:
Both.Stevo_666 said:
Now, or longer term? The long term result is the more important one.skyblueamateur said:Stevo, do you believe there is more red tape and paperwork for business before or after Brexit?
"I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]0 -
No intrastats reporting, no EU mandatory disclosure regs, elimination of various EU import tariffs, EU ATAD 3 doesn't impact UK entities, etc. Those are the ones I can see in my area.rjsterry said:
No, which is why I was asking. EU regulation wasn't something that impinged on our business to any great degree in the first place, so there is little to save.Stevo_666 said:
Gut feeling. Do you have any info?rjsterry said:
Is that 'gut feeling' or something more detailed?Stevo_666 said:
Now - probably not a lot of difference overall. Long term - there will be less of a burden I think.skyblueamateur said:
Both.Stevo_666 said:
Now, or longer term? The long term result is the more important one.skyblueamateur said:Stevo, do you believe there is more red tape and paperwork for business before or after Brexit?
Are there particular areas where you see scope for reduction in regulations? In my field the push is very much in the opposite direction, particularly in building regulation, both of products and services. This is independent of Brexit and more to do with the obvious failings of the current Building Regulations system.
I wondered if you had any examples where there was a significant burden and a probable reduction in that burden from diverging UK regulation.
Point is more the that we can set rules to suit our own needs rather than have to adopt a compromise set of rules."I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]0 -
Roughly what savings are you seeing from those and how do they compare with added costs elsewhere?Stevo_666 said:
No intrastats reporting, no EU mandatory disclosure regs, elimination of various EU import tariffs, EU ATAD 3 doesn't impact UK entities, etc. Those are the ones I can see in my area.rjsterry said:
No, which is why I was asking. EU regulation wasn't something that impinged on our business to any great degree in the first place, so there is little to save.Stevo_666 said:
Gut feeling. Do you have any info?rjsterry said:
Is that 'gut feeling' or something more detailed?Stevo_666 said:
Now - probably not a lot of difference overall. Long term - there will be less of a burden I think.skyblueamateur said:
Both.Stevo_666 said:
Now, or longer term? The long term result is the more important one.skyblueamateur said:Stevo, do you believe there is more red tape and paperwork for business before or after Brexit?
Are there particular areas where you see scope for reduction in regulations? In my field the push is very much in the opposite direction, particularly in building regulation, both of products and services. This is independent of Brexit and more to do with the obvious failings of the current Building Regulations system.
I wondered if you had any examples where there was a significant burden and a probable reduction in that burden from diverging UK regulation.
Point is more the that we can set rules to suit our own needs rather than have to adopt a compromise set of rules.
The freedom to set our own rules is not a benefit in itself. Only if we can identify specific areas of regulation where a divergence can produce a net saving is it a benefit.1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
Pinnacle Monzonite
Part of the anti-growth coalition0
