BREXIT - Is This Really Still Rumbling On? 😴

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Comments

  • joelsim
    joelsim Posts: 7,552
    I'll add a social element to this.

    The liberal elite (those that often stick up and campaign for people less fortunate) have been made to look like the enemy to the poor by the right wingers, who historically haven't given the slightest consideration for anyone but themselves.

    That isn't good in any way, shape or form.
  • kingstongraham
    kingstongraham Posts: 28,154
    I thought Boris set out the situation pretty well in his "remain" article. I can agree with most of that.

    The thing that stands out from re-reading his "leave" article is that he expected a leave vote to result in changes to the EU, and by implication not actually having to fully leave. I only hope that he was right with that bit, but he could do with telling his colleagues.
  • wallace_and_gromit
    wallace_and_gromit Posts: 3,618
    Joelsim wrote:
    The vote means nothing...

    You've got to like a man so arrogant that he casually dismisses over 17 million votes as meaning nothing. Of course the vote means something. The trick is to find out what the vote does mean in practical terms and find a solution that is tolerably sub-optimal to the majority (*). Of course the fruitcakes at either end of the spectrum e.g. Farage and yourself will never be happy unless they get exactly what they want but there's little mileage in pandering to any sort of minority as it will lead to an outcome that p*sses of the majority one way or another.

    Whether TM's approach to tackling this problem is a good one remains to be seen. There's too much "smoke and mirrors" from all sides at the moment to know what's really happening. But dismissing the largest popular vote for anything ever in the UK's history seems like a worse starting point than TM's approach.

    (*) This is the best that can be hoped for. A "hard" exit will be too much for the remainers and a "leave but don't address real issues" approach will be too much for the leavers. We need something that inspires a feeling of "well it's not ideal but it will do in the circumstances" from the masses. It's not very glamorous, but that's the reality.
  • bigmat
    bigmat Posts: 5,134
    Wallace and Gromit wrote:
    We need something that inspires a feeling of "well it's not ideal but it will do in the circumstances" from the masses. It's not very glamorous, but that's the reality.

    I honestly think that the best "well it's not ideal but it will do in the circumstances" was the status quo. Neither soft-Brexit or hard-Brexit will make things better in any meaningful way and will in all likelihood make things a hell of a lot worse (hard-Brexit anyway). The real irony is that the whole raft of unnecessary trade negotiations that will result in this country being in a significantly worse position will probably take up to a decade, by which point based on the demographic breakdown of the referendum vote, a significant proportion of Brexiters will have died and the majority won't be in favour of the outcome after all. Its a monumental **** up.
    http://www.flickr.com/photos/41991871@N ... otostream/
  • wallace_and_gromit
    wallace_and_gromit Posts: 3,618
    BigMat wrote:
    Wallace and Gromit wrote:
    We need something that inspires a feeling of "well it's not ideal but it will do in the circumstances" from the masses. It's not very glamorous, but that's the reality.

    I honestly think that the best "well it's not ideal but it will do in the circumstances" was the status quo.

    Economically yes. However, in terms of satisfying the voters (*) it clearly wasn't, as otherwise a majority would have voted to remain.

    (*) on a simple average basis. If votes were weighted by years left to experience the impact of the vote then the vote was clearly to remain!
  • Stevo_666
    Stevo_666 Posts: 61,428
    Joelsim wrote:
    TheBigBean wrote:
    The big picture is a combination of things. My point still stands - overall, you can think Brexit is a bad thing, but if you have any balance at all you will see some upsides.

    Of course.
    So what upsides do you see from BREXIT?
    "I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]
  • joelsim
    joelsim Posts: 7,552
    Stevo 666 wrote:
    Joelsim wrote:
    TheBigBean wrote:
    The big picture is a combination of things. My point still stands - overall, you can think Brexit is a bad thing, but if you have any balance at all you will see some upsides.

    Of course.
    So what upsides do you see from BREXIT?

    None mate. The downsides heavily outweigh anything else, but I'm sure there will be a minor win or two.
  • Stevo_666
    Stevo_666 Posts: 61,428
    Joelsim wrote:
    Stevo 666 wrote:
    Joelsim wrote:
    TheBigBean wrote:
    The big picture is a combination of things. My point still stands - overall, you can think Brexit is a bad thing, but if you have any balance at all you will see some upsides.

    Of course.
    So what upsides do you see from BREXIT?

    None mate. The downsides heavily outweigh anything else, but I'm sure there will be a minor win or two.
    I think this demonstrates BigBean's case about balance. I happen to agree with him...

    Are you really going to spend the next few years posting on this thread on a daily basis that we are doomed?
    "I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]
  • narbs
    narbs Posts: 593
    Joelsim wrote:
    Stevo 666 wrote:
    Joelsim wrote:
    TheBigBean wrote:
    The big picture is a combination of things. My point still stands - overall, you can think Brexit is a bad thing, but if you have any balance at all you will see some upsides.

    Of course.
    So what upsides do you see from BREXIT?

    None mate. The downsides heavily outweigh anything else, but I'm sure there will be a minor win or two.

    We'll be producing much more jam for a start.
  • joelsim
    joelsim Posts: 7,552
    Stevo 666 wrote:
    Joelsim wrote:
    Stevo 666 wrote:
    Joelsim wrote:
    TheBigBean wrote:
    The big picture is a combination of things. My point still stands - overall, you can think Brexit is a bad thing, but if you have any balance at all you will see some upsides.

    Of course.
    So what upsides do you see from BREXIT?

    None mate. The downsides heavily outweigh anything else, but I'm sure there will be a minor win or two.
    I think this demonstrates BigBean's case about balance. I happen to agree with him...

    Are you really going to spend the next few years posting on this thread on a daily basis that we are doomed?

    Balance as in we have a wintertime Ulrich vs Kenny Ellissonde's embryo?

    Any minor benefits that result are virtually irrelevant in the scheme of things.
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 75,661
    MORE JAM FOR EVERYONEZ.

    JAM WILL SAVE US.

    JAM WILL SAVE US FROM A PICKLE.





    OPPORTUNITIES.
    _
  • finchy
    finchy Posts: 6,686
    One silver lining - maybe we'll be forced into educating and training our workforce properly and not quite so dependent on importing foreign labour (a supply which might in the future dry up anyway) to do so many jobs like doctor, nurse, engineer or teacher.

    Of course, that would depend on a coherent education and training policy, so it might not actually happen, but we can dream a little.
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 75,661
    finchy wrote:
    One silver lining - maybe we'll be forced into educating and training our workforce properly and not quite so dependent on importing foreign labour (a supply which might in the future dry up anyway) to do so many jobs like doctor, nurse, engineer or teacher.

    Of course, that would depend on a coherent education and training policy, so it might not actually happen, but we can dream a little.

    BREXIT GIVES US SMARTZ INNIT.

    DONT WANT NO EXPERTS THO.





    OPPORTUNITIES.
    _
  • joelsim
    joelsim Posts: 7,552
    Airlines Trade Assoc: Brexit could reduce no. of UK air passengers by 25m fewer than Govt. forecast = > entire annual traffic of Stansted.

    Quick let's build a 3rd runway.*



    *Not that there'd be anything quick about it.
  • finchy
    finchy Posts: 6,686
    Rick Chasey wrote:
    finchy wrote:
    One silver lining - maybe we'll be forced into educating and training our workforce properly and not quite so dependent on importing foreign labour (a supply which might in the future dry up anyway) to do so many jobs like doctor, nurse, engineer or teacher.

    Of course, that would depend on a coherent education and training policy, so it might not actually happen, but we can dream a little.

    BREXIT GIVES US SMARTZ INNIT.

    DONT WANT NO EXPERTS THO.





    OPPORTUNITIES.

    You should send that to Richard Desmond, you might get a job editing the Daily Express.
  • rolf_f
    rolf_f Posts: 16,015
    finchy wrote:
    One silver lining - maybe we'll be forced into educating and training our workforce properly and not quite so dependent on importing foreign labour (a supply which might in the future dry up anyway) to do so many jobs like doctor, nurse, engineer or teacher.

    Of course, that would depend on a coherent education and training policy, so it might not actually happen, but we can dream a little.

    Of course, any training requiring a post graduate qualification may be in future out of reach as so many post graduate courses depend on the income gained from the foreign students who TM seems to have it most in for.
    Faster than a tent.......
  • finchy
    finchy Posts: 6,686
    Rolf F wrote:
    finchy wrote:
    One silver lining - maybe we'll be forced into educating and training our workforce properly and not quite so dependent on importing foreign labour (a supply which might in the future dry up anyway) to do so many jobs like doctor, nurse, engineer or teacher.

    Of course, that would depend on a coherent education and training policy, so it might not actually happen, but we can dream a little.

    Of course, any training requiring a post graduate qualification may be in future out of reach as so many post graduate courses depend on the income gained from the foreign students who TM seems to have it most in for.

    Not to worry, we can just ask our own population to load up with more debt. See, simple solution to every problem.
  • TheBigBean
    TheBigBean Posts: 21,921
    Joelsim wrote:
    Airlines Trade Assoc: Brexit could reduce no. of UK air passengers by 25m fewer than Govt. forecast = > entire annual traffic of Stansted.

    Quick let's build a 3rd runway.*



    *Not that there'd be anything quick about it.

    Traffic forecasts are a bit like economic forecasts - best done after the event with hindsight.
  • mamba80
    mamba80 Posts: 5,032
    Stevo 666 wrote:
    Joelsim wrote:
    Stevo 666 wrote:
    Joelsim wrote:
    TheBigBean wrote:
    The big picture is a combination of things. My point still stands - overall, you can think Brexit is a bad thing, but if you have any balance at all you will see some upsides.

    Of course.
    So what upsides do you see from BREXIT?

    None mate. The downsides heavily outweigh anything else, but I'm sure there will be a minor win or two.
    I think this demonstrates BigBean's case about balance. I happen to agree with him...

    Are you really going to spend the next few years posting on this thread on a daily basis that we are doomed?

    you mean as you do about the Labour party and Corbyn? :lol:

    anyhow, what meaningful upsides do you see Steve? convince me and Joel there are some........
  • coopster_the_1st
    coopster_the_1st Posts: 5,158
    BigMat wrote:
    Wallace and Gromit wrote:
    We need something that inspires a feeling of "well it's not ideal but it will do in the circumstances" from the masses. It's not very glamorous, but that's the reality.

    I honestly think that the best "well it's not ideal but it will do in the circumstances" was the status quo.

    There is no 'status quo' from remaining in the EU. To believe so is as foolish as those who believe leaving the EU will result in EU citizens being removed from the UK. If the vote had been to remain, it would have been seen as validation by the UK population for the EU project which we know over the very long term is to achieve a European superstate. Short term it would have been a European army(tick), a european budget dictating taxes, and any number of other power transfers to Brussels.
  • bigmat
    bigmat Posts: 5,134
    Coopster the 1st wrote:
    BigMat wrote:
    Wallace and Gromit wrote:
    We need something that inspires a feeling of "well it's not ideal but it will do in the circumstances" from the masses. It's not very glamorous, but that's the reality.

    I honestly think that the best "well it's not ideal but it will do in the circumstances" was the status quo.

    There is no 'status quo' from remaining in the EU. To believe so is as foolish as those who believe leaving the EU will result in EU citizens being removed from the UK. If the vote had been to remain, it would have been seen as validation by the UK population for the EU project which we know over the very long term is to achieve a European superstate. Short term it would have been a European army(tick), a european budget dictating taxes, and any number of other power transfers to Brussels.

    If only we had a veto preventing any of those things from ever happening...
    http://www.flickr.com/photos/41991871@N ... otostream/
  • kingstongraham
    kingstongraham Posts: 28,154
    Coopster the 1st wrote:
    BigMat wrote:
    Wallace and Gromit wrote:
    We need something that inspires a feeling of "well it's not ideal but it will do in the circumstances" from the masses. It's not very glamorous, but that's the reality.

    I honestly think that the best "well it's not ideal but it will do in the circumstances" was the status quo.

    There is no 'status quo' from remaining in the EU. To believe so is as foolish as those who believe leaving the EU will result in EU citizens being removed from the UK. If the vote had been to remain, it would have been seen as validation by the UK population for the EU project which we know over the very long term is to achieve a European superstate. Short term it would have been a European army(tick), a european budget dictating taxes, and any number of other power transfers to Brussels.

    Not if it had only been 51.9% vs 48.1%.
  • mamba80
    mamba80 Posts: 5,032
    Coopster the 1st wrote:
    BigMat wrote:
    Wallace and Gromit wrote:
    We need something that inspires a feeling of "well it's not ideal but it will do in the circumstances" from the masses. It's not very glamorous, but that's the reality.

    I honestly think that the best "well it's not ideal but it will do in the circumstances" was the status quo.

    There is no 'status quo' from remaining in the EU. To believe so is as foolish as those who believe leaving the EU will result in EU citizens being removed from the UK. If the vote had been to remain, it would have been seen as validation by the UK population for the EU project which we know over the very long term is to achieve a European superstate. Short term it would have been a European army(tick), a european budget dictating taxes, and any number of other power transfers to Brussels.

    why are you repeating stuff that is nt true?

    the euro army is nonsense, at most it would be some sort of rapid reaction force, something that could enforce a border, much like the EU naval ships in the Med, no one is saying that is an EU Navy.

    last time i looked ALL eu states have their own tax policy.... why is that going to change???? and more importantly, how?

    Superstate... ? where is your evidence for this?

    we ve a list of opt outs as long as your arm, as well you know, plus a veto, tbh i m surprised you didnt mention us being overun with turks and how we can now spend that 350m.

    as for eu citizens being made to leave UK? they wont have to be forced, they are already starting to leave and there is evidence less are choosing the UK, they need stability and the UK isnt it right now.
  • orraloon
    orraloon Posts: 13,230
    Meanwhile, back in the real world part...

    My eye consultant (you know, highly experienced and knowledgeable in matters health) at JR Oxford this morning, Spanish.

    Just telling it like it is.
  • coopster_the_1st
    coopster_the_1st Posts: 5,158
    Chancellor admits pre-referendum Treasury analysis on Brexit and possible economic loss now at least partially invalid..

    Maybe the remoaners are now going to drop this from their arguments as it cannot be relied on to be factual.

    How foolish do you feel for falling for the lies of the establishment regarding brexit economic forecasts?
  • bendertherobot
    bendertherobot Posts: 11,684
    Coopster the 1st wrote:
    Chancellor admits pre-referendum Treasury analysis on Brexit and possible economic loss now at least partially invalid..

    Maybe the remoaners are now going to drop this from their arguments as it cannot be relied on to be factual.

    How foolish do you feel for falling for the lies of the establishment regarding brexit economic forecasts?

    Have you read his testimony yet? One of the reasons being, well, you know ;)
    My blog: http://www.roubaixcycling.cc (kit reviews and other musings)
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    Facebook? No. Just say no.
  • joelsim
    joelsim Posts: 7,552
    Coopster the 1st wrote:
    Chancellor admits pre-referendum Treasury analysis on Brexit and possible economic loss now at least partially invalid..

    Maybe the remoaners are now going to drop this from their arguments as it cannot be relied on to be factual.

    How foolish do you feel for falling for the lies of the establishment regarding brexit economic forecasts?

    Duh. Keep reading the Daily Express fella.
  • coopster_the_1st
    coopster_the_1st Posts: 5,158
    bendertherobot wrote:
    Coopster the 1st wrote:
    Chancellor admits pre-referendum Treasury analysis on Brexit and possible economic loss now at least partially invalid..

    Maybe the remoaners are now going to drop this from their arguments as it cannot be relied on to be factual.

    How foolish do you feel for falling for the lies of the establishment regarding brexit economic forecasts?

    Have you read his testimony yet? One of the reasons being, well, you know ;)

    Two very basic assumptions were made in the analysis
    - That A50 would be served the day after the vote
    - That their would be no remedial actions taken to assist the economy.

    Even before the vote, it is plainly obvious that neither of these assumptions were going to be the case upon a leave vote. So why did they base their analysis on these? How many of the 16m voted because they believed this bollocks :roll:

    You are being lied to, or at least being fed disinformation, by those that you are fully trusting your future with.
  • coopster_the_1st
    coopster_the_1st Posts: 5,158
    An now the lower pound is hurting the EU's budget.

    As the UK pay their contributions to the EU in sterling, it means that our contribution for 2017 is worth £2.5bn less than it was in 2016. So every time a Euro politician opens their mouth to try and damage the UK, they make their own lives harder by reducing our EU budget contribution. You could not make it up!

    So who is going to make up this shortfall even before we have served A50?

    'Don't bit the hand that feeds you' is a pretty appropiate quote for this. And remoaners continually say we have no hands to our negotiation. The reality will be somewhat different to those who only aim is to undermine the Brexit process
  • joelsim
    joelsim Posts: 7,552
    I don't know which planet you live on.

    Do some reading.

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