BREXIT - Is This Really Still Rumbling On? 😴

ballysmate · October 2016

Surrey Commuter wrote:

Ballysmate wrote:

briantrumpet wrote:

Ballysmate wrote:

For argument's sake, say that the court finds that Parliament must vote to trigger A50, what then? Will 17 and a half million just shrug their shoulders?

I think they should suck up to the fact that they had lost, stop whingeing, and make it work.

Naive

Parliament would be saying " We asked you to advise us on what to do but were never going to do it anyway."
Brexiters would point out, with some justification, that they won the vote. At what level of public support for Brexit do you think Parliament should vote to trigger A50?

That is easy - there should never have been a referendum.

Anyway they ditched their £350m a week to the NHS within hours so why not renege on leaving the EU?

People up in arms, who gives a sh1t? What are they going to do, refuse to colllect their pensions/subsidies/benefits or emigrate to get away from the foreigners?

There was and unless you have a time machine...
Should there have been a referendum? Moot point. It was in the Tory manifesto which people voted on in a GE. Parliament voted on providing a referendum and people voted on the issue.
I may be shocked at the result which went against my vote, but seems pretty democratic to me.

briantrumpet · October 2016

Ballysmate wrote:

Should there have been a referendum? [...] but seems pretty democratic to me.

Democracy is far more complex than asking an ill-informed electorate yes/no. If you want stupid answers, ask stupid questions. Even worse, ask stupid questions for which nobody knows the answers anyway.

http://time.com/4386655/brexit-referendums/

ballysmate · October 2016

briantrumpet wrote:

Ballysmate wrote:

Should there have been a referendum? [...] but seems pretty democratic to me.

Democracy is far more complex than asking an ill-informed electorate yes/no. If you want stupid answers, ask stupid questions. Even worse, ask stupid questions for which nobody knows the answers anyway.

http://time.com/4386655/brexit-referendums/

But you and some others on here seem so certain that we should remain. I wish I had your 'smarts'.
I am honest enough to admit that I haven't got a crystal ball to see whether leaving will be a disaster or whether it will be deemed a masterstroke in 10 years time.

Funny how it all seems to be remainers that think the issue is too complex. Perhaps it is we that are stupid?

briantrumpet · October 2016

Ballysmate wrote:

But you and some others on here seem so certain that we should remain. I wish I had your 'smarts'.
I am honest enough to admit that I haven't got a crystal ball to see whether leaving will be a disaster or whether it will be deemed a masterstroke in 10 years time.

Funny how it all seems to be remainers that think the issue is too complex. Perhaps it is we that are stupid?

I haven't got a crystal ball either, but at its most basic level a possible outcome of leaving is economic (and thereby social) disaster is not something I'd vote for, and a parliament whose primary aim should be the economic and social well-being of the country shouldn't take those risks either.

Maybe the EU will implode (though the UK's actions have made that more likely), but I still can't see enough possible economic gains to outweigh the possibly catastrophic economic & social risks of withdrawing prematurely, especially given the special status the UK had (and thus partially insulated from the shock that an EU/Euro collapse would entail).

rick_chasey · October 2016

Emperor's nose, innit.

mamba80 · October 2016

Ballysmate wrote:

briantrumpet wrote:

Ballysmate wrote:

Should there have been a referendum? [...] but seems pretty democratic to me.

Democracy is far more complex than asking an ill-informed electorate yes/no. If you want stupid answers, ask stupid questions. Even worse, ask stupid questions for which nobody knows the answers anyway.

http://time.com/4386655/brexit-referendums/

But you and some others on here seem so certain that we should remain. I wish I had your 'smarts'.
I am honest enough to admit that I haven't got a crystal ball to see whether leaving will be a disaster or whether it will be deemed a masterstroke in 10 years time.

Funny how it all seems to be remainers that think the issue is too complex. Perhaps it is we that are stupid?

why does anyone think we ll be better off out? we ve been out before, in a far less competitive world market and with much greater commonwealth ties and yet we still failed, thats why we joined the EEC in the first place and we ve done rather better in than out.

its hardly the EU s fault we ve not chosen to invest in services and infrastructure, hence the seemingly extra burden migrants place on services, housing and transport.

ballysmate · October 2016

mamba80 wrote:

Ballysmate wrote:

briantrumpet wrote:

Ballysmate wrote:

Should there have been a referendum? [...] but seems pretty democratic to me.

Democracy is far more complex than asking an ill-informed electorate yes/no. If you want stupid answers, ask stupid questions. Even worse, ask stupid questions for which nobody knows the answers anyway.

http://time.com/4386655/brexit-referendums/

But you and some others on here seem so certain that we should remain. I wish I had your 'smarts'.
I am honest enough to admit that I haven't got a crystal ball to see whether leaving will be a disaster or whether it will be deemed a masterstroke in 10 years time.

Funny how it all seems to be remainers that think the issue is too complex. Perhaps it is we that are stupid?

why does anyone think we ll be better off out? we ve been out before, in a far less competitive world market and with much greater commonwealth ties and yet we still failed, thats why we joined the EEC in the first place and we ve done rather better in than out.

its hardly the EU s fault we ve not chosen to invest in services and infrastructure, hence the seemingly extra burden migrants place on services, housing and transport.

As salesman of financial products are at pains to say to potential investors, "Past performance is no guarantee to future performance"

briantrumpet · October 2016

Ballysmate wrote:

As salesman of financial products are at pains to say to potential investors, "Past performance is no guarantee to future performance"

Indeed, but you'd be daft not to look at past performance as a guide to the possible outcomes of future performance.

joelsim · October 2016

Just hold your horses. This is far from over, just beginning in fact.

Common sense will prevail I'm sure.

We can't have the economic policy of the country decided by a bunch of self-interested idiots, and time is our friend.

Every day that goes by shows more folly, and the people who are wanting Brexit get ever more ridiculous.

briantrumpet · October 2016

Joelsim wrote:

Common sense will prevail I'm sure.

Hang on, I thought satire was dead?

https://www.theguardian.com/culture/201 ... few-laughs

ballysmate · October 2016

Joelsim wrote:

Just hold your horses. This is far from over, just beginning in fact.

Common sense will prevail I'm sure.

We can't have the economic policy of the country decided by a bunch of self-interested idiots, and time is our friend.

Every day that goes by shows more folly, and the people who are wanting Brexit get ever more ridiculous.

Self interested? I'm sure that everyone that voted did so in the belief that they were serving their own interests, including you.

joelsim · October 2016

Ballysmate wrote:

Joelsim wrote:

Just hold your horses. This is far from over, just beginning in fact.

Common sense will prevail I'm sure.

We can't have the economic policy of the country decided by a bunch of self-interested idiots, and time is our friend.

Every day that goes by shows more folly, and the people who are wanting Brexit get ever more ridiculous.

Self interested? I'm sure that everyone that voted did so in the belief that they were serving their own interests, including you.

Nope. Unless you count unity and humanity as a self-interest.

And before you ask, no I don't want to be poorer, and no I don't want millions of others to be poorer.

ballysmate · October 2016

Joelsim wrote:

Ballysmate wrote:

Joelsim wrote:

Just hold your horses. This is far from over, just beginning in fact.

Common sense will prevail I'm sure.

We can't have the economic policy of the country decided by a bunch of self-interested idiots, and time is our friend.

Every day that goes by shows more folly, and the people who are wanting Brexit get ever more ridiculous.

Self interested? I'm sure that everyone that voted did so in the belief that they were serving their own interests, including you.

Nope. Unless you count unity and humanity as a self-interest.

And before you ask, no I don't want to be poorer, and no I don't want millions of others to be poorer.

Why would I ask that? :?

Unity? We have a referendum and your (and my) side were in the minority, you refuse to accept the result in the name of unity?
Nope, can't follow that logic.

surrey_commuter · October 2016

Ballysmate wrote:

Surrey Commuter wrote:

Ballysmate wrote:

briantrumpet wrote:

Ballysmate wrote:

For argument's sake, say that the court finds that Parliament must vote to trigger A50, what then? Will 17 and a half million just shrug their shoulders?

I think they should suck up to the fact that they had lost, stop whingeing, and make it work.

Naive

Parliament would be saying " We asked you to advise us on what to do but were never going to do it anyway."
Brexiters would point out, with some justification, that they won the vote. At what level of public support for Brexit do you think Parliament should vote to trigger A50?

That is easy - there should never have been a referendum.

Anyway they ditched their £350m a week to the NHS within hours so why not renege on leaving the EU?

People up in arms, who gives a sh1t? What are they going to do, refuse to colllect their pensions/subsidies/benefits or emigrate to get away from the foreigners?

There was and unless you have a time machine...
Should there have been a referendum? Moot point. It was in the Tory manifesto which people voted on in a GE. Parliament voted on providing a referendum and people voted on the issue.
I may be shocked at the result which went against my vote, but seems pretty democratic to me.

surrey_commuter · October 2016

Ballysmate wrote:

Joelsim wrote:

Ballysmate wrote:

Joelsim wrote:

Just hold your horses. This is far from over, just beginning in fact.

Common sense will prevail I'm sure.

We can't have the economic policy of the country decided by a bunch of self-interested idiots, and time is our friend.

Every day that goes by shows more folly, and the people who are wanting Brexit get ever more ridiculous.

Self interested? I'm sure that everyone that voted did so in the belief that they were serving their own interests, including you.

Nope. Unless you count unity and humanity as a self-interest.

And before you ask, no I don't want to be poorer, and no I don't want millions of others to be poorer.

Why would I ask that? :?

Unity? We have a referendum and your (and my) side were in the minority, you refuse to accept the result in the name of unity?
Nope, can't follow that logic.

But it is not the overwhelming mandate that many would have us believe. It is not being opposed by tiny minority. Roughly equal numbers voted in either direction and the same again could not be bothered.

The vote was to leave not what the alternative should be and that is where the argument has shifted

ballysmate · October 2016

Surrey Commuter wrote:

Ballysmate wrote:

Joelsim wrote:

Ballysmate wrote:

Joelsim wrote:

Just hold your horses. This is far from over, just beginning in fact.

Common sense will prevail I'm sure.

We can't have the economic policy of the country decided by a bunch of self-interested idiots, and time is our friend.

Every day that goes by shows more folly, and the people who are wanting Brexit get ever more ridiculous.

Self interested? I'm sure that everyone that voted did so in the belief that they were serving their own interests, including you.

Nope. Unless you count unity and humanity as a self-interest.

And before you ask, no I don't want to be poorer, and no I don't want millions of others to be poorer.

Why would I ask that? :?

Unity? We have a referendum and your (and my) side were in the minority, you refuse to accept the result in the name of unity?
Nope, can't follow that logic.

But it is not the overwhelming mandate that many would have us believe. It is not being opposed by tiny minority. Roughly equal numbers voted in either direction and the same again could not be bothered.

The vote was to leave not what the alternative should be and that is where the argument has shifted

Not for some on here. They think the courts will decide that Parliament must vote, the MPs will vote down Brexit and everything will be hunky dory.

bendertherobot · October 2016

Do "they"?

surrey_commuter · October 2016

Ballysmate wrote:

Surrey Commuter wrote:

Ballysmate wrote:

Joelsim wrote:

Ballysmate wrote:

Joelsim wrote:

Just hold your horses. This is far from over, just beginning in fact.

Common sense will prevail I'm sure.

We can't have the economic policy of the country decided by a bunch of self-interested idiots, and time is our friend.

Every day that goes by shows more folly, and the people who are wanting Brexit get ever more ridiculous.

Self interested? I'm sure that everyone that voted did so in the belief that they were serving their own interests, including you.

Nope. Unless you count unity and humanity as a self-interest.

And before you ask, no I don't want to be poorer, and no I don't want millions of others to be poorer.

Why would I ask that? :?

Unity? We have a referendum and your (and my) side were in the minority, you refuse to accept the result in the name of unity?
Nope, can't follow that logic.

But it is not the overwhelming mandate that many would have us believe. It is not being opposed by tiny minority. Roughly equal numbers voted in either direction and the same again could not be bothered.

The vote was to leave not what the alternative should be and that is where the argument has shifted

Not for some on here. They think the courts will decide that Parliament must vote, the MPs will vote down Brexit and everything will be hunky dory.

Labour will never get it together to all vote one way so the 20-30 Tories who will rebel will be irrelevant.

FWIW I believe this all to be a complete irrelevance as the EU will decide what we can have. These famous "negotiations" will become a farce.
We bicker over the single market - we are out, accept it
we bicker over customs union - we need to leave to forge these new trade deals

Brexit is an insanity based upon heroic assumptions. Those heroic assumptions are impossible to even dream of without a clean break from the EU

rolf_f · October 2016

Ballysmate wrote:

briantrumpet wrote:

Ballysmate wrote:

Should there have been a referendum? [...] but seems pretty democratic to me.

Democracy is far more complex than asking an ill-informed electorate yes/no. If you want stupid answers, ask stupid questions. Even worse, ask stupid questions for which nobody knows the answers anyway.

http://time.com/4386655/brexit-referendums/

But you and some others on here seem so certain that we should remain. I wish I had your 'smarts'.
I am honest enough to admit that I haven't got a crystal ball to see whether leaving will be a disaster or whether it will be deemed a masterstroke in 10 years time.

Funny how it all seems to be remainers that think the issue is too complex. Perhaps it is we that are stupid?

Broadly speaking, the deciding argument for remain was (primarily) economics and for leave (primarily) sovereignty. The economic issues are pretty clear and the Brexit camp mostly acknowledged that. On the other hand, if you ask anyone to name any EU legislation that has had a significant negative impact on their life (and then explain how a UK Government would have done any better) they rarely can. If the leavers could come up with a single rational reason why they voted out then maybe those of us who voted remain might be a little less certain.

To me, it one of the stupidest first world decisions ever made (along with the decision to have the referendum in the first place) - absolutely no benefits and huge negatives. If it happens, then there will be no deal with Europe at all as we have no negotiating cards in our favour and those who want out don't seem to care if we have a deal anyway. Sadly, all a soft Brexit means is the same as being in the EU but paying a lot more for it than we do now so it seems hard to see that happening. On a selfish level, I'm just glad that I can afford a hard Brexit. A high proportion of the population really have no idea what is going to hit them.

bigmat · October 2016

Rolf F wrote:

Ballysmate wrote:

briantrumpet wrote:

Ballysmate wrote:

Should there have been a referendum? [...] but seems pretty democratic to me.

Democracy is far more complex than asking an ill-informed electorate yes/no. If you want stupid answers, ask stupid questions. Even worse, ask stupid questions for which nobody knows the answers anyway.

http://time.com/4386655/brexit-referendums/

But you and some others on here seem so certain that we should remain. I wish I had your 'smarts'.
I am honest enough to admit that I haven't got a crystal ball to see whether leaving will be a disaster or whether it will be deemed a masterstroke in 10 years time.

Funny how it all seems to be remainers that think the issue is too complex. Perhaps it is we that are stupid?

Broadly speaking, the deciding argument for remain was (primarily) economics and for leave (primarily) sovereignty. The economic issues are pretty clear and the Brexit camp mostly acknowledged that. On the other hand, if you ask anyone to name any EU legislation that has had a significant negative impact on their life (and then explain how a UK Government would have done any better) they rarely can. If the leavers could come up with a single rational reason why they voted out then maybe those of us who voted remain might be a little less certain.

To me, it one of the stupidest first world decisions ever made (along with the decision to have the referendum in the first place) - absolutely no benefits and huge negatives. If it happens, then there will be no deal with Europe at all as we have no negotiating cards in our favour and those who want out don't seem to care if we have a deal anyway. Sadly, all a soft Brexit means is the same as being in the EU but paying a lot more for it than we do now so it seems hard to see that happening. On a selfish level, I'm just glad that I can afford a hard Brexit. A high proportion of the population really have no idea what is going to hit them.

Agree with this except I think you are being generous to a large proportion of the Brexit camp as I think their primary motivation was to end immigration. Still waiting for a few examples of how Brexit will be beneficial - there must be a silver lining, right? (my international corporate lawyer chum who gets paid in $ not £ doesn't count...)

joelsim · October 2016

Exactly BigMat, there doesn't appear to be an upside.

And as I said this is only just beginning, to accept that we are already out is defeatist. We need to stick up for what we believe is right. That's in economic terms for the majority of the people, and of course because we can't allow the far right to gain the upper hand with regard to social cohesion.

The vote means nothing, it was based on a pack of lies which people fell for.

And as regards the will of the people, we shall see how that develops over the next few months as the effects become apparent.

rolf_f · October 2016

BigMat wrote:

Agree with this except I think you are being generous to a large proportion of the Brexit camp as I think their primary motivation was to end immigration.

Well yes, fair point. I was trying to give benefit of the doubt and focus on the reasoning that made at least some vague theoretical sense.

It's a bit like Rolls Royces. A lot of people would quite like one. If we had a referendum on whether or not we should all be given Rolls Royces, probably most people would vote for it. Doesn't mean we can actually afford it though. And I'd still be voting no for that one - partly because of the economics and partly because I'd rather have my old Saab anyway. And the Daily Mail would be constantly screaming for us to be given our Rolls Royces. It's all completely nuts.

TheBigBean · October 2016

Meanwhile

The employment rate (the proportion of people aged from 16 to 64 who were in work) was 74.5%, the joint highest since comparable records began in 1971.

joelsim · October 2016

TheBigBean wrote:

Meanwhile

The employment rate (the proportion of people aged from 16 to 64 who were in work) was 74.5%, the joint highest since comparable records began in 1971.

And it appears it's highly likely that it won't stay like that if we leave.

TheBigBean · October 2016

Joelsim wrote:

Exactly BigMat, there doesn't appear to be an upside.

If you can't think of a single upside of Brexit, then I think you have no balance at all.

I'll give you a random one - cheaper solar panels as the UK will no longer be obliged to pay over the odds for Chinese panels in order to protect Germany's now bankrupt industry.

joelsim · October 2016

TheBigBean wrote:

Joelsim wrote:

Exactly BigMat, there doesn't appear to be an upside.

If you can't think of a single upside of Brexit, then I think you have no balance at all.

I'll give you a random one - cheaper solar panels as the UK will no longer be obliged to pay over the odds for Chinese panels in order to protect Germany's now bankrupt industry.

Big picture.

TheBigBean · October 2016

Joelsim wrote:

TheBigBean wrote:

Joelsim wrote:

Exactly BigMat, there doesn't appear to be an upside.

If you can't think of a single upside of Brexit, then I think you have no balance at all.

I'll give you a random one - cheaper solar panels as the UK will no longer be obliged to pay over the odds for Chinese panels in order to protect Germany's now bankrupt industry.

Big picture.

The big picture is a combination of things. My point still stands - overall, you can think Brexit is a bad thing, but if you have any balance at all you will see some upsides.

surrey_commuter · October 2016

Rolf F wrote:

Ballysmate wrote:

briantrumpet wrote:

Ballysmate wrote:

Should there have been a referendum? [...] but seems pretty democratic to me.

Democracy is far more complex than asking an ill-informed electorate yes/no. If you want stupid answers, ask stupid questions. Even worse, ask stupid questions for which nobody knows the answers anyway.

http://time.com/4386655/brexit-referendums/

But you and some others on here seem so certain that we should remain. I wish I had your 'smarts'.
I am honest enough to admit that I haven't got a crystal ball to see whether leaving will be a disaster or whether it will be deemed a masterstroke in 10 years time.

Funny how it all seems to be remainers that think the issue is too complex. Perhaps it is we that are stupid?

Broadly speaking, the deciding argument for remain was (primarily) economics and for leave (primarily) sovereignty. The economic issues are pretty clear and the Brexit camp mostly acknowledged that. On the other hand, if you ask anyone to name any EU legislation that has had a significant negative impact on their life (and then explain how a UK Government would have done any better) they rarely can. If the leavers could come up with a single rational reason why they voted out then maybe those of us who voted remain might be a little less certain.

To me, it one of the stupidest first world decisions ever made (along with the decision to have the referendum in the first place) - absolutely no benefits and huge negatives. If it happens, then there will be no deal with Europe at all as we have no negotiating cards in our favour and those who want out don't seem to care if we have a deal anyway. Sadly, all a soft Brexit means is the same as being in the EU but paying a lot more for it than we do now so it seems hard to see that happening. On a selfish level, I'm just glad that I can afford a hard Brexit. A high proportion of the population really have no idea what is going to hit them.

I could have saved myself a couple of hundred posts by just agreeing with this

joelsim · October 2016

TheBigBean wrote:

Joelsim wrote:

TheBigBean wrote:

Joelsim wrote:

Exactly BigMat, there doesn't appear to be an upside.

If you can't think of a single upside of Brexit, then I think you have no balance at all.

I'll give you a random one - cheaper solar panels as the UK will no longer be obliged to pay over the odds for Chinese panels in order to protect Germany's now bankrupt industry.

Big picture.

The big picture is a combination of things. My point still stands - overall, you can think Brexit is a bad thing, but if you have any balance at all you will see some upsides.

Of course. But I'm talking about the big picture which, according to experts, is going to be a disaster of epic proportions.

joelsim · October 2016

Surrey Commuter wrote:

Rolf F wrote:

Ballysmate wrote:

briantrumpet wrote:

Ballysmate wrote:

Should there have been a referendum? [...] but seems pretty democratic to me.

Democracy is far more complex than asking an ill-informed electorate yes/no. If you want stupid answers, ask stupid questions. Even worse, ask stupid questions for which nobody knows the answers anyway.

http://time.com/4386655/brexit-referendums/

But you and some others on here seem so certain that we should remain. I wish I had your 'smarts'.
I am honest enough to admit that I haven't got a crystal ball to see whether leaving will be a disaster or whether it will be deemed a masterstroke in 10 years time.

Funny how it all seems to be remainers that think the issue is too complex. Perhaps it is we that are stupid?

Broadly speaking, the deciding argument for remain was (primarily) economics and for leave (primarily) sovereignty. The economic issues are pretty clear and the Brexit camp mostly acknowledged that. On the other hand, if you ask anyone to name any EU legislation that has had a significant negative impact on their life (and then explain how a UK Government would have done any better) they rarely can. If the leavers could come up with a single rational reason why they voted out then maybe those of us who voted remain might be a little less certain.

To me, it one of the stupidest first world decisions ever made (along with the decision to have the referendum in the first place) - absolutely no benefits and huge negatives. If it happens, then there will be no deal with Europe at all as we have no negotiating cards in our favour and those who want out don't seem to care if we have a deal anyway. Sadly, all a soft Brexit means is the same as being in the EU but paying a lot more for it than we do now so it seems hard to see that happening. On a selfish level, I'm just glad that I can afford a hard Brexit. A high proportion of the population really have no idea what is going to hit them.

I could have saved myself a couple of hundred posts by just agreeing with this

Yep, pretty good précis of the situation.

BREXIT - Is This Really Still Rumbling On? 😴

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