BREXIT - Is This Really Still Rumbling On? 😴
Comments
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She won't as that will cause civil war in the Tory party. If it so happens through the courts or because it becomes a requirement through another means then of course that's a different matter.0
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I know, and no offence taken. I explained my own situation earlier so I know you get where I am coming from on that front.Joelsim wrote:It wasn't directed at Steve, just simply what I've seen happen on oh so many vox pops on the news."I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]0 -
The will of the people? You mean the referendum result? After the majority of MPs voted in favour of holding rhe referendum.Rick Chasey wrote:Disappointingly looks like May won't discuss leaving the single market in parliament.
The defence isn't great; that she's channelling the will of the people. It doesn't fill you with confidence in parliamentary democracy.
Then again, I would say that since I know most MPs want to remain (though, granted for good reason)."I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]0 -
Ah come on let's not do that argument again.
The big mainstream brexiters; BoJo etc campaign on the premise that remaining in the single market was on the table.
He even said so in his column immediately afterwards. The "Norway" solution was the solution I heard most often from Brexiters.0 -
Stevo 666 wrote:
The will of the people? You mean the referendum result? After the majority of MPs voted in favour of holding rhe referendum.Rick Chasey wrote:Disappointingly looks like May won't discuss leaving the single market in parliament.
The defence isn't great; that she's channelling the will of the people. It doesn't fill you with confidence in parliamentary democracy.
Then again, I would say that since I know most MPs want to remain (though, granted for good reason).
This does still go back to the £350m for the NHS, the blame put on immigrants, Turkey, having cake and eating it and so on. I argue with many people on facebook and Twitter every single day and all of these things are quoted as fact, mostly these idiots don't even know what the economy is or the role it plays in their lives. All lies and yet either these people really are f*cking stupid or they're hiding behind it. My sense is it's the former.
So, to my mind the whole 'will of the people' argument is deeply flawed and therefore irrelevant. Not to mention the will of the people who it'll affect the least i.e. The old. Whereas the will of the young who'll be picking up the pieces is the exact opposite.0 -
Disagree on the Ponzi scheme point because many will stay - this will be factored into the population forecast shown above in any event.Surrey Commuter wrote:Stevo 666 wrote:
I recognise the point about helping to fund the care for an ageing population and don't dispute the economic benefits from migrants coming here.Surrey Commuter wrote:I will take a stab at answering the immigration/population questions.
With our aging population we need more working age taxpayers. Migrants are great as we don't have to pay £5k a year to educate them and as they tend to leave it saves on retirement costs.
That said we should be stricter on criminals and could make benefits dependent on paying in. Personally I think as we "fill up" there will be a natural brake on people wanting to come here.
Anyway I think you are all underestimating the size of the task in reducing net immigration to sub 100,000 per annum
https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulation ... rt/may2016
Highlights of this report;
330,0000 net immigration
Roughly half EU
Roughly half have a job
we would have to refuse entry to people with job offers. Our only hope would be to encourage people to emigrate - which a long-term economic downturn might help
But as mentioned above, it all becomes a massive Ponzi scheme when an expanded population then ages and needs yet larger numbers of immigrants to fund their care. It has to stop at some point.
The idea that we simply let the place become less attractive as we 'fill up' is not a nice one as that implies sufficient issues with overcrowding, transport, even higher house prices, strain on services etc. Much better for us to deal with it before it gets to that.
As has been said, probably needs a separate thread to debate with the underlying issues.
Not a ponzi scheme as they tend to leave - and that is specific to the public sector.
But what specific measures would you suggest?
As for specific measures:
- Agree re not allowing criminals in.
- No forcing anyone to go home but would consider helping the whingers who want out, as you say.
Key questions are who we allow in going forwards and why, and to balance this against the numbers leaving (net migration management) so will be a moving feast rather than fixed quotas. Probably a few categories here, I would guess in this order:-
- Those being sponsored by employers, I.e with a job. As done for non-EU workers now
- Those with specific skills that are in demand although may not have a job offer
- Those not falling into the above
Maybe a time to lag in balancing these with emigration, but over to should be OK. Also need to take I to account the needs of employers - hopefully covered mostly by the above.
I am guessing some sort of time limited arrangement as for Aus/Kiwi workers in the UK could work, potentially renewable.
Clearly not the finished article, just my thoughts."I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]0 -
It still is on the table, the main obstacle is those spiteful little twerps in Europe who are trying to discourage others from leaving...Rick Chasey wrote:Ah come on let's not do that argument again.
The big mainstream brexiters; BoJo etc campaign on the premise that remaining in the single market was on the table.
He even said so in his column immediately afterwards. The "Norway" solution was the solution I heard most often from Brexiters."I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]0 -
Good evening remoaners,
How are we all on this lovely Sunday evening? Are you enjoying a beer? Or is your glass half empty
Joel, your life must be really poor if it is any reflection of your negativity on here. Chill out. And how long before the penny drops that A50 will be served by TM. I thought you had it a few pages ago but I see your are still in denial mode :roll:
Let's be clear on a few things that are not going to change as some seem to have lost sight of it while drowning in negativity(most have moved on following their shock at the vote)
- France will still only be 23 miles off the English coast thus we are not moving further away from Europe. It's only the political project that we are leaving.
- Business will still transact all over the UK & EU and this will not cease upon us leaving
- All the problems that are in the EU are still there, and they are only getting worse. These are being masked by the Brexit commentary. Will we have left before one of these becomes a full crisis?
- If the BOE thought the pound losing value was an issue they would take steps to correct it. Simples
Have a good week all
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I don't know why this is even being discussed. Its been very clear for many years that we accept free movement or we don't. There is no middle ground.
Moving forwards May has to justify to herself first and foremost that destroying the economy is a price worth paying simply to appease a load of scumbags, who will turn on her anyway as soon as they start noticing that the price of a pint has increased vastly, they can't afford a holiday, their weekly shop is costing them £20 more, some of their friends have lost their jobs, there are cuts to the NHS happening regularly, and there are still just as many Polski Skleps on the high street...0 -
Coopster the 1st wrote:Good evening remoaners,
How are we all on this lovely Sunday evening? Are you enjoying a beer? Or is your glass half empty
Joel, your life must be really poor if it is any reflection of your negativity on here. Chill out. And how long before the penny drops that A50 will be served by TM. I thought you had it a few pages ago but I see your are still in denial mode :roll:
Let's be clear on a few things that are not going to change as some seem to have lost sight of it while drowning in negativity(most have moved on following their shock at the vote)
- France will still only be 23 miles off the English coast thus we are not moving further away from Europe. It's only the political project that we are leaving.
- Business will still transact all over the UK & EU and this will not cease upon us leaving
- All the problems that are in the EU are still there, and they are only getting worse. These are being masked by the Brexit commentary. Will we have left before one of these becomes a full crisis?
- If the BOE thought the pound losing value was an issue they would take steps to correct it. Simples
Have a good week all
F*ck off.0 -
Not when the lumpen proleteriat are manipulated by liars, charlatans and political opportunists. When one only has to fool enough of the people once then 'democracy' is a fragile thing. Thank you Shiny Faced Dave, your place in history is secure.Stevo 666 wrote:
So you're not a great believer in democracy then?Joelsim wrote:So, to my mind the whole 'will of the people' argument is deeply flawed and therefore irrelevant.0 -
Stevo 666 wrote:
So you're not a great believer in democracy then?Joelsim wrote:So, to my mind the whole 'will of the people' argument is deeply flawed and therefore irrelevant.
This isn't democracy. It was a non-binding referendum which was conducted using a pile of untruths which the easily-led like Coopster fell for hook, line and sinker.0 -
You know the hanging argument: democracy isn't a simple "give the masses what they want" exercise. We elect politicians to make sensible decisions on our behalf. The electorate can't be trusted with emotive or complicated stuff. As we've proved all too recently.Stevo 666 wrote:
So you're not a great believer in democracy then?Joelsim wrote:So, to my mind the whole 'will of the people' argument is deeply flawed and therefore irrelevant.0 -
briantrumpet wrote:
You know the hanging argument: democracy isn't a simple "give the masses what they want" exercise. We elect politicians to make sensible decisions on our behalf. The electorate can't be trusted with emotive or complicated stuff. As we've proved all too recently.Stevo 666 wrote:
So you're not a great believer in democracy then?Joelsim wrote:So, to my mind the whole 'will of the people' argument is deeply flawed and therefore irrelevant.
Quite right. How there can be so much difference in members of the same species never fails to stagger me.0 -
Stevo 666 wrote:
It still is on the table, the main obstacle is those spiteful little twerps in Europe who are trying to discourage others from leaving...Rick Chasey wrote:Ah come on let's not do that argument again.
The big mainstream brexiters; BoJo etc campaign on the premise that remaining in the single market was on the table.
He even said so in his column immediately afterwards. The "Norway" solution was the solution I heard most often from Brexiters.
From what I remember the single market access, freedom of movement mantra was stated several times before the vote. Is it spite when you give a choice and then stick to your word after the decision?0 -
I'm impressed how she's managed to appoint the most incompetent possible trio to oversee Brexit. The only thing I have much confidence in is that they'll balls it up.
We'll probably end up being ruled by Scotland or something.
I'm glad I have dual nationality. Crack on with stuffing up your country!0 -
Ive asked this before to someome else: if the UK had never joined the EU and we were now being asked if we wanted to join, would you agree that there should be a referendum on it?briantrumpet wrote:
You know the hanging argument: democracy isn't a simple "give the masses what they want" exercise. We elect politicians to make sensible decisions on our behalf. The electorate can't be trusted with emotive or complicated stuff. As we've proved all too recently.Stevo 666 wrote:
So you're not a great believer in democracy then?Joelsim wrote:So, to my mind the whole 'will of the people' argument is deeply flawed and therefore irrelevant."I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]0 -
Coopster the 1st wrote:Good evening remoaners,
- Business will still transact all over the UK & EU and this will not cease upon us leaving
- no but it is predicted to decrease
- If the BOE thought the pound losing value was an issue they would take steps to correct it. Simples
What steps would they be? Stand in the market and buy pounds? Increase interest rates and strangle the economy or make reassuring comments?0 -
Stevo 666 wrote:
Ive asked this before to someome else: if the UK had never joined the EU and we were now being asked if we wanted to join, would you agree that there should be a referendum on it?briantrumpet wrote:
You know the hanging argument: democracy isn't a simple "give the masses what they want" exercise. We elect politicians to make sensible decisions on our behalf. The electorate can't be trusted with emotive or complicated stuff. As we've proved all too recently.Stevo 666 wrote:
So you're not a great believer in democracy then?Joelsim wrote:So, to my mind the whole 'will of the people' argument is deeply flawed and therefore irrelevant.
No - because the general public are not qualified to make the decision.0 -
Joelsim wrote:Coopster the 1st wrote:Good evening remoaners,
How are we all on this lovely Sunday evening? Are you enjoying a beer? Or is your glass half empty
Joel, your life must be really poor if it is any reflection of your negativity on here. Chill out. And how long before the penny drops that A50 will be served by TM. I thought you had it a few pages ago but I see your are still in denial mode :roll:
Let's be clear on a few things that are not going to change as some seem to have lost sight of it while drowning in negativity(most have moved on following their shock at the vote)
- France will still only be 23 miles off the English coast thus we are not moving further away from Europe. It's only the political project that we are leaving.
- Business will still transact all over the UK & EU and this will not cease upon us leaving
- All the problems that are in the EU are still there, and they are only getting worse. These are being masked by the Brexit commentary. Will we have left before one of these becomes a full crisis?
- If the BOE thought the pound losing value was an issue they would take steps to correct it. Simples
Have a good week all
F*ck off.
Looks like someone touched a raw nerve..."I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]0 -
Surrey Commuter wrote:Coopster the 1st wrote:Good evening remoaners,
- Business will still transact all over the UK & EU and this will not cease upon us leaving
- no but it is predicted to decrease
- If the BOE thought the pound losing value was an issue they would take steps to correct it. Simples
What steps would they be? Stand in the market and buy pounds? Increase interest rates and strangle the economy or make reassuring comments?
Pointless trying to debate with him, he's a clueless moron. His post shows that he has absolutely no idea.0 -
Surrey Commuter wrote:Stevo 666 wrote:
Ive asked this before to someome else: if the UK had never joined the EU and we were now being asked if we wanted to join, would you agree that there should be a referendum on it?briantrumpet wrote:
You know the hanging argument: democracy isn't a simple "give the masses what they want" exercise. We elect politicians to make sensible decisions on our behalf. The electorate can't be trusted with emotive or complicated stuff. As we've proved all too recently.Stevo 666 wrote:
So you're not a great believer in democracy then?Joelsim wrote:So, to my mind the whole 'will of the people' argument is deeply flawed and therefore irrelevant.
No - because the general public are not qualified to make the decision.
I'd say no-one is qualified to make that decision as after all you are being asked to consider an alternative reality. It just doesn't fit. If the UK never joined how ever many years ago then who knows how world events would've panned out.0 -
verylonglegs wrote:Surrey Commuter wrote:Stevo 666 wrote:
Ive asked this before to someome else: if the UK had never joined the EU and we were now being asked if we wanted to join, would you agree that there should be a referendum on it?briantrumpet wrote:
You know the hanging argument: democracy isn't a simple "give the masses what they want" exercise. We elect politicians to make sensible decisions on our behalf. The electorate can't be trusted with emotive or complicated stuff. As we've proved all too recently.Stevo 666 wrote:
So you're not a great believer in democracy then?Joelsim wrote:So, to my mind the whole 'will of the people' argument is deeply flawed and therefore irrelevant.
No - because the general public are not qualified to make the decision.
I'd say no-one is qualified to make that decision as after all you are being asked to consider an alternative reality. It just doesn't fit. If the UK never joined how ever many years ago then who knows how world events would've panned out.
Correct, who knows.
What we do know though is that there is no leaving scenario that will benefit the UK economically or socially.0 -
Stevo 666 wrote:Joelsim wrote:Coopster the 1st wrote:Good evening remoaners,
How are we all on this lovely Sunday evening? Are you enjoying a beer? Or is your glass half empty
Joel, your life must be really poor if it is any reflection of your negativity on here. Chill out. And how long before the penny drops that A50 will be served by TM. I thought you had it a few pages ago but I see your are still in denial mode :roll:
Let's be clear on a few things that are not going to change as some seem to have lost sight of it while drowning in negativity(most have moved on following their shock at the vote)
- France will still only be 23 miles off the English coast thus we are not moving further away from Europe. It's only the political project that we are leaving.
- Business will still transact all over the UK & EU and this will not cease upon us leaving
- All the problems that are in the EU are still there, and they are only getting worse. These are being masked by the Brexit commentary. Will we have left before one of these becomes a full crisis?
- If the BOE thought the pound losing value was an issue they would take steps to correct it. Simples
Have a good week all
F*ck off.
Looks like someone touched a raw nerve...
There are very few things more annoying than a gloating f*ckwit.0 -
Em, there was. In 1975 to join/ stay in the 'Common Market'. I'm old enough to remember that. And the result was 60 something % to join/stay.Stevo 666 wrote:
Ive asked this before to someome else: if the UK had never joined the EU and we were now being asked if we wanted to join, would you agree that there should be a referendum on it?briantrumpet wrote:
You know the hanging argument: democracy isn't a simple "give the masses what they want" exercise. We elect politicians to make sensible decisions on our behalf. The electorate can't be trusted with emotive or complicated stuff. As we've proved all too recently.Stevo 666 wrote:
So you're not a great believer in democracy then?Joelsim wrote:So, to my mind the whole 'will of the people' argument is deeply flawed and therefore irrelevant.0 -
Stevo 666 wrote:
It still is on the table, the main obstacle is those spiteful little twerps in Europe who are trying to discourage others from leaving...Rick Chasey wrote:Ah come on let's not do that argument again.
The big mainstream brexiters; BoJo etc campaign on the premise that remaining in the single market was on the table.
He even said so in his column immediately afterwards. The "Norway" solution was the solution I heard most often from Brexiters.
I don't think that any of the other governments have said that they want to block our membership of the single market, they've just said that we'll only be allowed in if we play by the rules and don't expect to be some special case.
This is what is starting to really p1ss me off about the whole thing. If we did the soft Brexit, I can't see Britain suffering too badly, whereas hard Brexit we probably will. I think that one day we'll probably be knocking on the door of the EU and re-applying for membership. The question is, do we want to be going back in with our heads held high (i.e. we're doing OK, but want back in because the younger generations who will be the majority in a couple of decades' time are just generally more Europhile) or with our tails between our legs?0 -
Coopster the 1st wrote:- France will still only be 23 miles off the English coast thus we are not moving further away from Europe. It's only the political project that we are leaving.
Actually, we are moving very, very slowly away from the European continent (a few mm per year, I believe) and sea-level rise may well add another few dozen metres to the distance between Dover and Calais.Coopster the 1st wrote:- If the BOE thought the pound losing value was an issue they would take steps to correct it. Simples
Umberto Eco — 'As the man said, for every complex problem there's a simple solution, and it's wrong.'0 -
If we took the analogy of a trial by jury...Surrey Commuter wrote:Stevo 666 wrote:
Ive asked this before to someome else: if the UK had never joined the EU and we were now being asked if we wanted to join, would you agree that there should be a referendum on it?briantrumpet wrote:
You know the hanging argument: democracy isn't a simple "give the masses what they want" exercise. We elect politicians to make sensible decisions on our behalf. The electorate can't be trusted with emotive or complicated stuff. As we've proved all too recently.Stevo 666 wrote:
So you're not a great believer in democracy then?Joelsim wrote:So, to my mind the whole 'will of the people' argument is deeply flawed and therefore irrelevant.
No - because the general public are not qualified to make the decision.
Yes, non-experts (the jurors) are asked to consider sometimes some very complicated matters... but, they are both overseen by a non-partisan judge, who can provide guidance on points of law, and prevent the barristers abusing their position... and the jury's decision is usually only accepted if it is unanimous or a very clear majority.
Other than that, sensible non-experts hire people with more knowledge and experience to make decisions on their behalves (doctors, lawyers, etc.) where complex problems or life-changing decisions are involved.
Putting complex problems with life-long ramifications to the electorate in simple yes/no terms is rather like having a jury trial with no judge, unscrupulous barristers, and a majority decision of 7/5.
I think the the Brexit vote shows what a flawed system referendums are for questions more complicated than "Does 2+2=4?"0 -
finchy wrote:Stevo 666 wrote:
It still is on the table, the main obstacle is those spiteful little twerps in Europe who are trying to discourage others from leaving...Rick Chasey wrote:Ah come on let's not do that argument again.
The big mainstream brexiters; BoJo etc campaign on the premise that remaining in the single market was on the table.
He even said so in his column immediately afterwards. The "Norway" solution was the solution I heard most often from Brexiters.
I don't think that any of the other governments have said that they want to block our membership of the single market, they've just said that we'll only be allowed in if we play by the rules and don't expect to be some special case.
This is what is starting to really p1ss me off about the whole thing. If we did the soft Brexit, I can't see Britain suffering too badly, whereas hard Brexit we probably will. I think that one day we'll probably be knocking on the door of the EU and re-applying for membership. The question is, do we want to be going back in with our heads held high (i.e. we're doing OK, but want back in because the younger generations who will be the majority in a couple of decades' time are just generally more Europhile) or with our tails between our legs?
Correct. Their stance has not changed in the slightest. We are either a member of this club and enjoying the full benefits. Or we aren't.
Even if we become a semi-member we still have to pay to use it but we'll get less benefits. But even as a semi-member we have to abide by the rules.
The EU cannot give us a deal that is more beneficial than the full members. If anyone thinks they can then they're delusional.0
