BREXIT - Is This Really Still Rumbling On? 😴
Comments
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This is all a live issue following the 'De Souza case'
My understanding of that case is that in order for Ms De Souza's US born husband to claim residence in NI under her Irish Passport , Ms De Souza would have to renounce her British Citzenship. Her argument is that British Citizenship should not be imposed upon her.
It's an intersection of citizenship, identity and immigration law that I don't really understand...to the point were I may be totally misstating the facts of the case..
“New York has the haircuts, London has the trousers, but Belfast has the reason!0 -
I can help you out with this one. If she is Irish then she gets to use her EU treaty rights which contain rights to family immigration, and make it very cheap and easy to live with her husband. If she is British she loses these rights and needs to use the very expensive and time consuming immigration route.tailwindhome said:This is all a live issue following the 'De Souza case'
My understanding of that case is that in order for Ms De Souza's US born husband to claim residence in NI under her Irish Passport , Ms De Souza would have to renounce her British Citzenship. Her argument is that British Citizenship should not be imposed upon her.
It's an intersection of citizenship, identity and immigration law that I don't really understand...to the point were I may be totally misstating the facts of the case..
Presumably the UK is arguing she is both as she was born in NI, so for the purposes immigration she needs to be use the shoddy British one, and she is arguing it's an outrage, she has been only Irish and would like to use the cheap and easy route.
See Surrinder Singh for immigration EU routes.0 -
That seems like a perfectly reasonable argument. Not sure it is consistent with your initial post though, but there is no need to squabble over that.kingstongraham said:
No, I'm saying that merely a nebulous desire for "sovereignty" shouldn't be a justification for leaving the EU.TheBigBean said:
The way I see your argument is as follows: There is no point to exercising a right to self-determination, because the existence of such a right, negates the point of exercising it.kingstongraham said:
What's wrong with it? We had the sovereignty, now we've exercised it.TheBigBean said:
You are better than that.kingstongraham said:As we have left via a unilateral decision, we clearly always had the sovereignty. It was never taken away.
The SNP are therefore mistaken about its desire to see an independent sovereign Scotland, because Scotland is already a independent sovereign country and is currently just choosing not to exercise such a decision.
Any sovereignty justification should be that those who wanted to leave didn't like some of the specific things that were done with the sovereignty we had decided to temporarily pool with the other members, and that these specifics were worth the cost.0 -
Sovereignty is pretty well defined:kingstongraham said:
No, I'm saying that merely a nebulous desire for "sovereignty" shouldn't be a justification for leaving the EU.TheBigBean said:
The way I see your argument is as follows: There is no point to exercising a right to self-determination, because the existence of such a right, negates the point of exercising it.kingstongraham said:
What's wrong with it? We had the sovereignty, now we've exercised it.TheBigBean said:
You are better than that.kingstongraham said:As we have left via a unilateral decision, we clearly always had the sovereignty. It was never taken away.
The SNP are therefore mistaken about its desire to see an independent sovereign Scotland, because Scotland is already a independent sovereign country and is currently just choosing not to exercise such a decision.
Any sovereignty justification should be that those who wanted to leave didn't like some of the specific things that were done with the sovereignty we had decided to temporarily pool with the other members, and that these specifics were worth the cost.
https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/sovereignty
It was also one of the main factors determining how people voted and thus the outcome of the 2016 referendum - and why we are no longer a member of the EU.
How nebulous is that?"I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]0 -
Erm... very? Is that right?Stevo_666 said:
Sovereignty is pretty well defined:kingstongraham said:
No, I'm saying that merely a nebulous desire for "sovereignty" shouldn't be a justification for leaving the EU.TheBigBean said:
The way I see your argument is as follows: There is no point to exercising a right to self-determination, because the existence of such a right, negates the point of exercising it.kingstongraham said:
What's wrong with it? We had the sovereignty, now we've exercised it.TheBigBean said:
You are better than that.kingstongraham said:As we have left via a unilateral decision, we clearly always had the sovereignty. It was never taken away.
The SNP are therefore mistaken about its desire to see an independent sovereign Scotland, because Scotland is already a independent sovereign country and is currently just choosing not to exercise such a decision.
Any sovereignty justification should be that those who wanted to leave didn't like some of the specific things that were done with the sovereignty we had decided to temporarily pool with the other members, and that these specifics were worth the cost.
https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/sovereignty
It was also one of the main factors determining how people voted and thus the outcome of the 2016 referendum - and why we are no longer a member of the EU.
How nebulous is that?0 -
“New York has the haircuts, London has the trousers, but Belfast has the reason!0
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that is just a reworking of the old theory that Boris will sign a deal whilst claiming victory because we now chose to follow their rules rather than being bound by themtailwindhome said:0 -
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Remove the passion for it and just imagine it was Trump.rick_chasey said:I mean, that's a stunning piece of spin.
Turn a normal situation inflammatory and then when you accept the original starting point claim victory and abuse the opposition some more.
Nobody who voted for Boris Trump will have changed their mind with anything they have seen since the election. They already knew he was a lying, bigoted unprincipled charlatan so have learned nothing new0 -
Fudge is what deals are made from.
“New York has the haircuts, London has the trousers, but Belfast has the reason!0 -
“New York has the haircuts, London has the trousers, but Belfast has the reason!0
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He is doing an AMA here tomorrow in case you are interested
https://www.reddit.com/r/ukpolitics/comments/hbbi4k/come_and_join_us_tomorrow_friday_the_19th_of_june/
The FT stats guy did one last week.1 -
It is right:kingstongraham said:
Erm... very? Is that right?Stevo_666 said:
Sovereignty is pretty well defined:kingstongraham said:
No, I'm saying that merely a nebulous desire for "sovereignty" shouldn't be a justification for leaving the EU.TheBigBean said:
The way I see your argument is as follows: There is no point to exercising a right to self-determination, because the existence of such a right, negates the point of exercising it.kingstongraham said:
What's wrong with it? We had the sovereignty, now we've exercised it.TheBigBean said:
You are better than that.kingstongraham said:As we have left via a unilateral decision, we clearly always had the sovereignty. It was never taken away.
The SNP are therefore mistaken about its desire to see an independent sovereign Scotland, because Scotland is already a independent sovereign country and is currently just choosing not to exercise such a decision.
Any sovereignty justification should be that those who wanted to leave didn't like some of the specific things that were done with the sovereignty we had decided to temporarily pool with the other members, and that these specifics were worth the cost.
https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/sovereignty
It was also one of the main factors determining how people voted and thus the outcome of the 2016 referendum - and why we are no longer a member of the EU.
How nebulous is that?
https://ukandeu.ac.uk/research-papers/peoples-stated-reasons-for-voting-leave-or-remain/
A well defined concept with a clear impact.
"I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]0 -
Interesting potential compromise. Looks like there is still the will to do a deal.tailwindhome said:"I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]0 -
So with this new deal where we accept the level playing field, set by the EU, but retain the sovereignty which gives us the ability to leave it..... That must be us giving up our sovereignty and therefore unacceptable.Stevo_666 said:
It is right:kingstongraham said:
Erm... very? Is that right?Stevo_666 said:
Sovereignty is pretty well defined:kingstongraham said:
No, I'm saying that merely a nebulous desire for "sovereignty" shouldn't be a justification for leaving the EU.TheBigBean said:
The way I see your argument is as follows: There is no point to exercising a right to self-determination, because the existence of such a right, negates the point of exercising it.kingstongraham said:
What's wrong with it? We had the sovereignty, now we've exercised it.TheBigBean said:
You are better than that.kingstongraham said:As we have left via a unilateral decision, we clearly always had the sovereignty. It was never taken away.
The SNP are therefore mistaken about its desire to see an independent sovereign Scotland, because Scotland is already a independent sovereign country and is currently just choosing not to exercise such a decision.
Any sovereignty justification should be that those who wanted to leave didn't like some of the specific things that were done with the sovereignty we had decided to temporarily pool with the other members, and that these specifics were worth the cost.
https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/sovereignty
It was also one of the main factors determining how people voted and thus the outcome of the 2016 referendum - and why we are no longer a member of the EU.
How nebulous is that?
https://ukandeu.ac.uk/research-papers/peoples-stated-reasons-for-voting-leave-or-remain/
A well defined concept with a clear impact.
I know people say that us "no longer being a sovereign nation" was a reason for leaving. I'm just saying that it's a bit of a catch 22 when you unilaterally exercise your sovereignty because you are no longer a sovereign nation.0 -
Stevo_666 said:
It is right:kingstongraham said:
Erm... very? Is that right?Stevo_666 said:
Sovereignty is pretty well defined:kingstongraham said:
No, I'm saying that merely a nebulous desire for "sovereignty" shouldn't be a justification for leaving the EU.TheBigBean said:
The way I see your argument is as follows: There is no point to exercising a right to self-determination, because the existence of such a right, negates the point of exercising it.kingstongraham said:
What's wrong with it? We had the sovereignty, now we've exercised it.TheBigBean said:
You are better than that.kingstongraham said:As we have left via a unilateral decision, we clearly always had the sovereignty. It was never taken away.
The SNP are therefore mistaken about its desire to see an independent sovereign Scotland, because Scotland is already a independent sovereign country and is currently just choosing not to exercise such a decision.
Any sovereignty justification should be that those who wanted to leave didn't like some of the specific things that were done with the sovereignty we had decided to temporarily pool with the other members, and that these specifics were worth the cost.
https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/sovereignty
It was also one of the main factors determining how people voted and thus the outcome of the 2016 referendum - and why we are no longer a member of the EU.
How nebulous is that?
https://ukandeu.ac.uk/research-papers/peoples-stated-reasons-for-voting-leave-or-remain/
A well defined concept with a clear impact.
Just because a word made a clear impact on the outcome doesn't make it any better defined, in practical terms, as to what it is. People voted for 'taking back control', but asked what they specifically wanted to take back control of, they mostly had no idea.0 -
You're changing the subject now. I was explaining that sovereignty is not a nebulous concept (see link to definition) and had a clear impact (influenced the referendum result). I notice you're not disputing either of those points.kingstongraham said:
So with this new deal where we accept the level playing field, set by the EU, but retain the sovereignty which gives us the ability to leave it..... That must be us giving up our sovereignty and therefore unacceptable.Stevo_666 said:
It is right:kingstongraham said:
Erm... very? Is that right?Stevo_666 said:
Sovereignty is pretty well defined:kingstongraham said:
No, I'm saying that merely a nebulous desire for "sovereignty" shouldn't be a justification for leaving the EU.TheBigBean said:
The way I see your argument is as follows: There is no point to exercising a right to self-determination, because the existence of such a right, negates the point of exercising it.kingstongraham said:
What's wrong with it? We had the sovereignty, now we've exercised it.TheBigBean said:
You are better than that.kingstongraham said:As we have left via a unilateral decision, we clearly always had the sovereignty. It was never taken away.
The SNP are therefore mistaken about its desire to see an independent sovereign Scotland, because Scotland is already a independent sovereign country and is currently just choosing not to exercise such a decision.
Any sovereignty justification should be that those who wanted to leave didn't like some of the specific things that were done with the sovereignty we had decided to temporarily pool with the other members, and that these specifics were worth the cost.
https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/sovereignty
It was also one of the main factors determining how people voted and thus the outcome of the 2016 referendum - and why we are no longer a member of the EU.
How nebulous is that?
https://ukandeu.ac.uk/research-papers/peoples-stated-reasons-for-voting-leave-or-remain/
A well defined concept with a clear impact.
I know people say that us "no longer being a sovereign nation" was a reason for leaving. I'm just saying that it's a bit of a catch 22 when you unilaterally exercise your sovereignty because you are no longer a sovereign nation."I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]0 -
Sovereignty is well defined as "the authority of a state to govern itself or another state" but given all the absolute rubbish in the tabloids and repeated by the leave lobby about how the EU were meant to be dictating UK laws, I really don't believe that the majority of leave voters who had this as a main reason for their choice really understood what they were doing. In any event, this is all old news now. We can see clearly that the promises by the leave lobby have been broken one by one and now the farmers are scrambling to avoid the US dumping their sub-standard offerings here and undercutting the local producers. And the government has continued to put out rubbish propaganda while failing daily in the general business of governing.0
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I am definitely not disputing that sovereignty had an impact on the result, I'm not an idiot. But I don't agree that I am changing the subject at all. If it is clear cut, why would you think I was?Stevo_666 said:
You're changing the subject now. I was explaining that sovereignty is not a nebulous concept (see link to definition) and had a clear impact (influenced the referendum result). I notice you're not disputing either of those points.kingstongraham said:
So with this new deal where we accept the level playing field, set by the EU, but retain the sovereignty which gives us the ability to leave it..... That must be us giving up our sovereignty and therefore unacceptable.Stevo_666 said:
It is right:kingstongraham said:
Erm... very? Is that right?Stevo_666 said:
Sovereignty is pretty well defined:kingstongraham said:
No, I'm saying that merely a nebulous desire for "sovereignty" shouldn't be a justification for leaving the EU.TheBigBean said:
The way I see your argument is as follows: There is no point to exercising a right to self-determination, because the existence of such a right, negates the point of exercising it.kingstongraham said:
What's wrong with it? We had the sovereignty, now we've exercised it.TheBigBean said:
You are better than that.kingstongraham said:As we have left via a unilateral decision, we clearly always had the sovereignty. It was never taken away.
The SNP are therefore mistaken about its desire to see an independent sovereign Scotland, because Scotland is already a independent sovereign country and is currently just choosing not to exercise such a decision.
Any sovereignty justification should be that those who wanted to leave didn't like some of the specific things that were done with the sovereignty we had decided to temporarily pool with the other members, and that these specifics were worth the cost.
https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/sovereignty
It was also one of the main factors determining how people voted and thus the outcome of the 2016 referendum - and why we are no longer a member of the EU.
How nebulous is that?
https://ukandeu.ac.uk/research-papers/peoples-stated-reasons-for-voting-leave-or-remain/
A well defined concept with a clear impact.
I know people say that us "no longer being a sovereign nation" was a reason for leaving. I'm just saying that it's a bit of a catch 22 when you unilaterally exercise your sovereignty because you are no longer a sovereign nation.0 -
Its true that a lot of people probably didn't properly understand or appreciate it, but that doesn't mean it is not a well defined concept. That was my point, apart from the impact.briantrumpet said:Stevo_666 said:
It is right:kingstongraham said:
Erm... very? Is that right?Stevo_666 said:
Sovereignty is pretty well defined:kingstongraham said:
No, I'm saying that merely a nebulous desire for "sovereignty" shouldn't be a justification for leaving the EU.TheBigBean said:
The way I see your argument is as follows: There is no point to exercising a right to self-determination, because the existence of such a right, negates the point of exercising it.kingstongraham said:
What's wrong with it? We had the sovereignty, now we've exercised it.TheBigBean said:
You are better than that.kingstongraham said:As we have left via a unilateral decision, we clearly always had the sovereignty. It was never taken away.
The SNP are therefore mistaken about its desire to see an independent sovereign Scotland, because Scotland is already a independent sovereign country and is currently just choosing not to exercise such a decision.
Any sovereignty justification should be that those who wanted to leave didn't like some of the specific things that were done with the sovereignty we had decided to temporarily pool with the other members, and that these specifics were worth the cost.
https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/sovereignty
It was also one of the main factors determining how people voted and thus the outcome of the 2016 referendum - and why we are no longer a member of the EU.
How nebulous is that?
https://ukandeu.ac.uk/research-papers/peoples-stated-reasons-for-voting-leave-or-remain/
A well defined concept with a clear impact.
Just because a word made a clear impact on the outcome doesn't make it any better defined, in practical terms, as to what it is. People voted for 'taking back control', but asked what they specifically wanted to take back control of, they mostly had no idea."I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]0 -
Simply because I was talking about the concept and the past impact that it had. You were then talking about what may happen in future.kingstongraham said:
I am definitely not disputing that sovereignty had an impact on the result, I'm not an idiot. But I don't agree that I am changing the subject at all. If it is clear cut, why would you think I was?Stevo_666 said:
You're changing the subject now. I was explaining that sovereignty is not a nebulous concept (see link to definition) and had a clear impact (influenced the referendum result). I notice you're not disputing either of those points.kingstongraham said:
So with this new deal where we accept the level playing field, set by the EU, but retain the sovereignty which gives us the ability to leave it..... That must be us giving up our sovereignty and therefore unacceptable.Stevo_666 said:
It is right:kingstongraham said:
Erm... very? Is that right?Stevo_666 said:
Sovereignty is pretty well defined:kingstongraham said:
No, I'm saying that merely a nebulous desire for "sovereignty" shouldn't be a justification for leaving the EU.TheBigBean said:
The way I see your argument is as follows: There is no point to exercising a right to self-determination, because the existence of such a right, negates the point of exercising it.kingstongraham said:
What's wrong with it? We had the sovereignty, now we've exercised it.TheBigBean said:
You are better than that.kingstongraham said:As we have left via a unilateral decision, we clearly always had the sovereignty. It was never taken away.
The SNP are therefore mistaken about its desire to see an independent sovereign Scotland, because Scotland is already a independent sovereign country and is currently just choosing not to exercise such a decision.
Any sovereignty justification should be that those who wanted to leave didn't like some of the specific things that were done with the sovereignty we had decided to temporarily pool with the other members, and that these specifics were worth the cost.
https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/sovereignty
It was also one of the main factors determining how people voted and thus the outcome of the 2016 referendum - and why we are no longer a member of the EU.
How nebulous is that?
https://ukandeu.ac.uk/research-papers/peoples-stated-reasons-for-voting-leave-or-remain/
A well defined concept with a clear impact.
I know people say that us "no longer being a sovereign nation" was a reason for leaving. I'm just saying that it's a bit of a catch 22 when you unilaterally exercise your sovereignty because you are no longer a sovereign nation.
Also you seemed to be assuming that there was not a 'grey scale' when it came to sovereignty with your comment about exercising sovereignty despite allegedly not having it . What bothers many people is the gradual erosion of sovereignty as the EU expands its remit."I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]0 -
Scrub that. The argument there is "I don't like what the EU is doing with us as a part of it". Not "we have lost sovereignty".
But I'll leave it there.0 -
Hope dies last 😄Stevo_666 said:
Interesting potential compromise. Looks like there is still the will to do a deal.tailwindhome said:1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
Pinnacle Monzonite
Part of the anti-growth coalition0 -
Who's hoping?rjsterry said:
Hope dies last 😄Stevo_666 said:
Interesting potential compromise. Looks like there is still the will to do a deal.tailwindhome said:
"I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]0 -
Fair enough, it won't change the end outcome anyway.kingstongraham said:Scrub that. The argument there is "I don't like what the EU is doing with us as a part of it". Not "we have lost sovereignty".
But I'll leave it there."I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]0 -
Not me. BTW, the provision for this 'compromise' has been in the EU's draft legal text since March, so hardly a new development.Stevo_666 said:
Who's hoping?rjsterry said:
Hope dies last 😄Stevo_666 said:
Interesting potential compromise. Looks like there is still the will to do a deal.tailwindhome said:
1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
Pinnacle Monzonite
Part of the anti-growth coalition0 -
Its true that some leavers had no idea what they were voting for, but that too cuts both ways, their is also the same amount of remainers who had no idea what they were voting for!Stevo_666 said:
Its true that a lot of people probably didn't properly understand or appreciate it, but that doesn't mean it is not a well defined concept. That was my point, apart from the impact.briantrumpet said:Stevo_666 said:
It is right:kingstongraham said:
Erm... very? Is that right?Stevo_666 said:
Sovereignty is pretty well defined:kingstongraham said:
No, I'm saying that merely a nebulous desire for "sovereignty" shouldn't be a justification for leaving the EU.TheBigBean said:
The way I see your argument is as follows: There is no point to exercising a right to self-determination, because the existence of such a right, negates the point of exercising it.kingstongraham said:
What's wrong with it? We had the sovereignty, now we've exercised it.TheBigBean said:
You are better than that.kingstongraham said:As we have left via a unilateral decision, we clearly always had the sovereignty. It was never taken away.
The SNP are therefore mistaken about its desire to see an independent sovereign Scotland, because Scotland is already a independent sovereign country and is currently just choosing not to exercise such a decision.
Any sovereignty justification should be that those who wanted to leave didn't like some of the specific things that were done with the sovereignty we had decided to temporarily pool with the other members, and that these specifics were worth the cost.
https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/sovereignty
It was also one of the main factors determining how people voted and thus the outcome of the 2016 referendum - and why we are no longer a member of the EU.
How nebulous is that?
https://ukandeu.ac.uk/research-papers/peoples-stated-reasons-for-voting-leave-or-remain/
A well defined concept with a clear impact.
Just because a word made a clear impact on the outcome doesn't make it any better defined, in practical terms, as to what it is. People voted for 'taking back control', but asked what they specifically wanted to take back control of, they mostly had no idea.0 -
At least this post has the merit of making Coopster look quite intelligentspatt77 said:Its true that some leavers had no idea what they were voting for, but that too cuts both ways, their is also the same amount of remainers who had no idea what they were voting for!
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Are you saying that every Remainer KNEW what they were voting for?. Obviously I`m well aware that Remainers are much more intelligent than Leavers as youve never been shy to tell us! Have you any graphs you can bamboozle me with to ram home your point?bompington said:
At least this post has the merit of making Coopster look quite intelligentspatt77 said:Its true that some leavers had no idea what they were voting for, but that too cuts both ways, their is also the same amount of remainers who had no idea what they were voting for!
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