BREXIT - Is This Really Still Rumbling On? 😴

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  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 75,661
    TheBigBean wrote:
    Rick Chasey wrote:
    TheBigBean wrote:
    His position was untenable.

    This I would agree with (through not fault of his own either), but reflexively you must back your ambassadors unless they have royally screwed up and if the foreign nation insists on expelling the ambassador for giving critical internal frank views on their host's leaders, they should also reflexively be held in place, just to ensure everyone knows who the ambassador serves.

    You can't refuse to back an ambassador for doing their job. Ridiculous.

    I just don't see this as a story. He can be backed as an excellent ambassador, but his time as the US one was over.

    Of course it isn't his fault, but that doesn't change the situation.

    You cannot have foreign leaders deciding who your ambassadors are. That’s not what it is all about.
    _
  • drhaggis
    drhaggis Posts: 1,150
    It's also a warning shot to all civil servants, who now know what sort of support to expect from Boris should he become PM.
  • TheBigBean
    TheBigBean Posts: 21,921
    Rick Chasey wrote:
    TheBigBean wrote:
    Rick Chasey wrote:
    TheBigBean wrote:
    His position was untenable.

    This I would agree with (through not fault of his own either), but reflexively you must back your ambassadors unless they have royally screwed up and if the foreign nation insists on expelling the ambassador for giving critical internal frank views on their host's leaders, they should also reflexively be held in place, just to ensure everyone knows who the ambassador serves.

    You can't refuse to back an ambassador for doing their job. Ridiculous.

    I just don't see this as a story. He can be backed as an excellent ambassador, but his time as the US one was over.

    Of course it isn't his fault, but that doesn't change the situation.

    You cannot have foreign leaders deciding who your ambassadors are. That’s not what it is all about.

    Foreign leaders haven't decided. His job was untenable from the moment of the leak. It would have been the same in any country.
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 75,661
    That is fine but it all changed when Trump demanded he leave and boycotted him.

    You ought to be able to stand by your ambassador for doing their job.
    _
  • TheBigBean
    TheBigBean Posts: 21,921
    Rick Chasey wrote:
    That is fine but it all changed when Trump demanded he leave and boycotted him.

    You ought to be able to stand by your ambassador for doing their job.

    Nothing changed when Trump acted like Trump. Nothing changed when BoJo declined to comment. His job was already over. If he was the ambassador of a small country he would have moved to another, but he had the top job. The one he had probably always wanted - the one of his dreams. This was ripped away from him by someone else. It took him a few days to realise it was all over, and that he was now retired.
  • tailwindhome
    tailwindhome Posts: 19,436
    Boris. He's no Hugh Grant.
    “New York has the haircuts, London has the trousers, but Belfast has the reason!
  • rjsterry
    rjsterry Posts: 29,573
    TheBigBean wrote:
    Rick Chasey wrote:
    TheBigBean wrote:
    His position was untenable.

    This I would agree with (through not fault of his own either), but reflexively you must back your ambassadors unless they have royally screwed up and if the foreign nation insists on expelling the ambassador for giving critical internal frank views on their host's leaders, they should also reflexively be held in place, just to ensure everyone knows who the ambassador serves.

    You can't refuse to back an ambassador for doing their job. Ridiculous.

    I just don't see this as a story. He can be backed as an excellent ambassador, but his time as the US one was over.

    Of course it isn't his fault, but that doesn't change the situation.

    Why? Does anyone believe that there are not similar reports going home from every embassy in the world?
    1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
    Pinnacle Monzonite

    Part of the anti-growth coalition
  • TheBigBean
    TheBigBean Posts: 21,921
    I like the attempt to redefine diplomacy as synonymous with candid.
  • Stevo_666
    Stevo_666 Posts: 61,428
    Given that a large part of an ambassadors job is to deal with senior figures in the government of the country where he is located, it is a bit difficult to see how he can do that job if that government refuses to deal with him for whatever reason.
    "I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]
  • kingstongraham
    kingstongraham Posts: 28,154
    Of course he had to go. The real story is still who leaked it and who knew.
  • Stevo_666
    Stevo_666 Posts: 61,428
    KingstonGraham wrote:
    Of course he had to go. The real story is still who leaked it and who knew.
    Agreed. Will be interesting to find out.
    "I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 75,661
    Stevo 666 wrote:
    Given that a large part of an ambassadors job is to deal with senior figures in the government of the country where he is located, it is a bit difficult to see how he can do that job if that government refuses to deal with him for whatever reason.

    It's not up to a foreign power to decide who represents you in their nation.

    End of.

    Particularly for privately reporting (as is his remit) on what is plainly pretty near the truth.

    He's not there to suck up, he's there to represent his nation's interests.
    _
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 75,661
    TheBigBean wrote:
    Rick Chasey wrote:
    That is fine but it all changed when Trump demanded he leave and boycotted him.

    You ought to be able to stand by your ambassador for doing their job.

    Nothing changed when Trump acted like Trump. Nothing changed when BoJo declined to comment. His job was already over. If he was the ambassador of a small country he would have moved to another, but he had the top job. The one he had probably always wanted - the one of his dreams. This was ripped away from him by someone else. It took him a few days to realise it was all over, and that he was now retired.

    Of course it did. He made it about Trump’s decision.

    And anyway it’s been widely reported that it was BoJos refusal to say he’d back him that made the ambassador decide there and then.
    _
  • Stevo_666
    Stevo_666 Posts: 61,428
    Rick Chasey wrote:
    Stevo 666 wrote:
    Given that a large part of an ambassadors job is to deal with senior figures in the government of the country where he is located, it is a bit difficult to see how he can do that job if that government refuses to deal with him for whatever reason.

    It's not up to a foreign power to decide who represents you in their nation.

    End of.

    Particularly for privately reporting (as is his remit) on what is plainly pretty near the truth.

    He's not there to suck up, he's there to represent his nation's interests.
    Explain how you think is he meant to do his job in the circumstances, given what I said above about what a large part of that job comprises and the refusal of the Trump administration to deal with him.
    "I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 75,661
    The leak is alarming not least because of the backdrop of Brexiters being very critical of said ambassador for his previous work with the EU and who received the leak; a journo who has questionable relationships and is very very close to Aaron banks etc
    _
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 75,661
    Stevo 666 wrote:
    Rick Chasey wrote:
    Stevo 666 wrote:
    Given that a large part of an ambassadors job is to deal with senior figures in the government of the country where he is located, it is a bit difficult to see how he can do that job if that government refuses to deal with him for whatever reason.

    It's not up to a foreign power to decide who represents you in their nation.

    End of.

    Particularly for privately reporting (as is his remit) on what is plainly pretty near the truth.

    He's not there to suck up, he's there to represent his nation's interests.
    Explain how you think is he meant to do his job in the circumstances, given what I said above about what a large part of that job comprises and the refusal of the Trump administration to deal with him.

    By his boss making clear to Trump he’s the man to deal with if he wants the UK.

    Trump doesn’t decide who represents the U.K.
    _
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 75,661
    Trump plainly has no regard for any of the historic foreign policies of the U.K. and the US, so why should you let him damage the integrity of the role civil servants play?

    The police are rightly investigating the leak, but untill Trump gets over his hissy fit the ambassador should stay untill it’s clear it’s the *UK* choice to relocate him.

    It’s not like 2 months is going to matter.

    And as Pm you must back your own civil servants, surely?!!?
    _
  • Stevo_666
    Stevo_666 Posts: 61,428
    Rick Chasey wrote:
    Trump plainly has no regard for any of the historic foreign policies of the U.K. and the US, so why should you let him damage the integrity of the role civil servants play?

    The police are rightly investigating the leak, but untill Trump gets over his hissy fit the ambassador should stay untill it’s clear it’s the *UK* choice to relocate him.

    It’s not like 2 months is going to matter.

    And as Pm you must back your own civil servants, surely?!!?
    You haven't answered my question.
    "I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]
  • rjsterry
    rjsterry Posts: 29,573
    Stevo 666 wrote:
    Given that a large part of an ambassadors job is to deal with senior figures in the government of the country where he is located, it is a bit difficult to see how he can do that job if that government refuses to deal with him for whatever reason.

    Trump says all sorts of stuff. He has form for loudly and publicly slagging someone off and then later letting them know in private that he doesn't really mean it. It would have been worth at least testing out whether he meant it, but too late now. We managed to get through the novichok incident and keep our Russian ambassador in place, but a handful of tweets - tweets FFS! - and we're swapping our US ambassador on request.
    1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
    Pinnacle Monzonite

    Part of the anti-growth coalition
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 75,661
    Stevo 666 wrote:
    Rick Chasey wrote:
    Trump plainly has no regard for any of the historic foreign policies of the U.K. and the US, so why should you let him damage the integrity of the role civil servants play?

    The police are rightly investigating the leak, but untill Trump gets over his hissy fit the ambassador should stay untill it’s clear it’s the *UK* choice to relocate him.

    It’s not like 2 months is going to matter.

    And as Pm you must back your own civil servants, surely?!!?
    You haven't answered my question.

    I have, just further up.
    _
  • Lagrange
    Lagrange Posts: 652
    KingstonGraham wrote:
    Of course he had to go. The real story is still who leaked it and who knew.


    Yes of course he had to go. He joined the Civil Service Defined Benefit Pension Scheme in 1976 (42 years ago if you wish) and probably maxed his lifetime contributions. Old, bored and in no need of all of this.
  • robert88
    robert88 Posts: 2,696
    Lagrange wrote:
    KingstonGraham wrote:
    Of course he had to go. The real story is still who leaked it and who knew.


    Yes of course he had to go. He joined the Civil Service Defined Benefit Pension Scheme in 1976 (42 years ago if you wish) and probably maxed his lifetime contributions. Old, bored and in no need of all of this.

    Yes you can tell by his record that he was nothing other than a time-serving public employee. What has he ever done for his country?

    It is a shame that BloJo's paramour is likely to be shacking up in number ten(at taxpayer's expense, natch) else she would be a shoe-in for the kind of Ambo that our new leader* demands.

    *Trump obv.
  • Stevo_666
    Stevo_666 Posts: 61,428
    Rick Chasey wrote:
    Stevo 666 wrote:
    Rick Chasey wrote:
    Trump plainly has no regard for any of the historic foreign policies of the U.K. and the US, so why should you let him damage the integrity of the role civil servants play?

    The police are rightly investigating the leak, but untill Trump gets over his hissy fit the ambassador should stay untill it’s clear it’s the *UK* choice to relocate him.

    It’s not like 2 months is going to matter.

    And as Pm you must back your own civil servants, surely?!!?
    You haven't answered my question.

    I have, just further up.
    I cant see where you've done that.

    Read my request again and have another try at answering what I asked rather than the question you'd like to answer.
    "I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]
  • Stevo_666
    Stevo_666 Posts: 61,428
    rjsterry wrote:
    Stevo 666 wrote:
    Given that a large part of an ambassadors job is to deal with senior figures in the government of the country where he is located, it is a bit difficult to see how he can do that job if that government refuses to deal with him for whatever reason.

    Trump says all sorts of stuff. He has form for loudly and publicly slagging someone off and then later letting them know in private that he doesn't really mean it. It would have been worth at least testing out whether he meant it, but too late now. We managed to get through the novichok incident and keep our Russian ambassador in place, but a handful of tweets - tweets FFS! - and we're swapping our US ambassador on request.
    Even Darroch himself has said that it's not possible for him to do his job in the circumstances. Its likely that he knows more that you about this...
    "I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 75,661
    Stevo 666 wrote:
    Rick Chasey wrote:
    Stevo 666 wrote:
    Rick Chasey wrote:
    Trump plainly has no regard for any of the historic foreign policies of the U.K. and the US, so why should you let him damage the integrity of the role civil servants play?

    The police are rightly investigating the leak, but untill Trump gets over his hissy fit the ambassador should stay untill it’s clear it’s the *UK* choice to relocate him.

    It’s not like 2 months is going to matter.

    And as Pm you must back your own civil servants, surely?!!?
    You haven't answered my question.

    I have, just further up.
    I cant see where you've done that.

    Read my request again and have another try at answering what I asked rather than the question you'd like to answer.

    Rick Chasey wrote:
    Stevo 666 wrote:
    Rick Chasey wrote:
    Stevo 666 wrote:
    Given that a large part of an ambassadors job is to deal with senior figures in the government of the country where he is located, it is a bit difficult to see how he can do that job if that government refuses to deal with him for whatever reason.

    It's not up to a foreign power to decide who represents you in their nation.

    End of.

    Particularly for privately reporting (as is his remit) on what is plainly pretty near the truth.

    He's not there to suck up, he's there to represent his nation's interests.
    Explain how you think is he meant to do his job in the circumstances, given what I said above about what a large part of that job comprises and the refusal of the Trump administration to deal with him.

    By his boss making clear to Trump he’s the man to deal with if he wants the UK.

    Trump doesn’t decide who represents the U.K.
    _
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 75,661
    Stevo 666 wrote:
    rjsterry wrote:
    Stevo 666 wrote:
    Given that a large part of an ambassadors job is to deal with senior figures in the government of the country where he is located, it is a bit difficult to see how he can do that job if that government refuses to deal with him for whatever reason.

    Trump says all sorts of stuff. He has form for loudly and publicly slagging someone off and then later letting them know in private that he doesn't really mean it. It would have been worth at least testing out whether he meant it, but too late now. We managed to get through the novichok incident and keep our Russian ambassador in place, but a handful of tweets - tweets FFS! - and we're swapping our US ambassador on request.
    Even Darroch himself has said that it's not possible for him to do his job in the circumstances. Its likely that he knows more that you about this...

    Sure, after BoJo refused to back him.
    _
  • rjsterry
    rjsterry Posts: 29,573
    Stevo 666 wrote:
    rjsterry wrote:
    Stevo 666 wrote:
    Given that a large part of an ambassadors job is to deal with senior figures in the government of the country where he is located, it is a bit difficult to see how he can do that job if that government refuses to deal with him for whatever reason.

    Trump says all sorts of stuff. He has form for loudly and publicly slagging someone off and then later letting them know in private that he doesn't really mean it. It would have been worth at least testing out whether he meant it, but too late now. We managed to get through the novichok incident and keep our Russian ambassador in place, but a handful of tweets - tweets FFS! - and we're swapping our US ambassador on request.
    Even Darroch himself has said that it's not possible for him to do his job in the circumstances. Its likely that he knows more that you about this...

    I'm aware of what he said about his resignation, and I would very much hope that he knows more about diplomacy than both of us. The general consensus seems to be that Johnson's equivocation was a contributing factor in Darroch's decision. I suggest without that it may have been possible for Darroch to continue but obviously that's just my view. Like I said we have managed to keep ambassadors in place in what would appear to be far more strained circumstances.
    1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
    Pinnacle Monzonite

    Part of the anti-growth coalition
  • bianchimoon
    bianchimoon Posts: 3,942
    rjsterry wrote:
    Stevo 666 wrote:
    rjsterry wrote:
    Stevo 666 wrote:
    Given that a large part of an ambassadors job is to deal with senior figures in the government of the country where he is located, it is a bit difficult to see how he can do that job if that government refuses to deal with him for whatever reason.

    Trump says all sorts of stuff. He has form for loudly and publicly slagging someone off and then later letting them know in private that he doesn't really mean it. It would have been worth at least testing out whether he meant it, but too late now. We managed to get through the novichok incident and keep our Russian ambassador in place, but a handful of tweets - tweets FFS! - and we're swapping our US ambassador on request.
    Even Darroch himself has said that it's not possible for him to do his job in the circumstances. Its likely that he knows more that you about this...

    I'm aware of what he said about his resignation, and I would very much hope that he knows more about diplomacy than both of us. The general consensus seems to be that Johnson's equivocation was a contributing factor in Darroch's decision. I suggest without that it may have been possible for Darroch to continue but obviously that's just my view. Like I said we have managed to keep ambassadors in place in what would appear to be far more strained circumstances.
    The sheer hypocrisy of the trump admin and diplomats is jaw dropping, the US ambassadors to Germany, Holland and Israel to name but a few have made open comments that are far more controversial than Darrochs, for all trump’s faults he at least defended and stood up for his own men. If Johnson survives this the U.K. is in a darker place than I thought.
    All lies and jest..still a man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest....
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 75,661
    It is symptomatic of a wider trend of politicising civil servants. This is usually done by nefarious politicians who recognise their political ends often do not match up with the technocratic "best for the nation" brief.

    Farage is on LBC already saying all public officials who object to Brexit "either change their ways or be removed".

    I have plenty of friends who work in the Civil service who voted remain who are working (very) hard on their Brexit briefs.

    This is the same thing. The leaker, the reporter, Trump and BoJo have all worked to politicise the role of the US Ambassador as a role that it plainly isn't.
    _
  • drhaggis
    drhaggis Posts: 1,150
    Rick Chasey wrote:
    Farage is on LBC already saying all public officials who object to Brexit "either change their ways or be removed".

    This is the quickest path to a banana kingdom.

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