BREXIT - Is This Really Still Rumbling On? 😴

ddraver

darkhairedlord wrote:

Peak Blighty!

My favourite too.

He was a good writer was Mr. Gill

ddraver

Shirley Basso wrote:

I would be very interested to read a similar piece for the leave campaign, just to see if I am missing anything

Well, the same but without the sarcasm. That's kinda the point...

FocusZing

Brexit: Farage argues for ‘Out’

"The UK had a referendum and they voted to leave the EU.

The End."

rolf_f

bobmcstuff wrote:

Basically sums it up for me.

Especially the bit about judges being in Westminster or Luxembourg: what difference can it possibly make?

Well, that decisions can be made for reasons other than a desire to remain in office after the next general election.

Shirley Basso wrote:

I would be very interested to read a similar piece for the leave campaign, just to see if I am missing anything

I genuinely doubt that there is any Brexiter who could articulate rationally that piece. Simply because all they have is "out".

darkhairedlord

Rolf F wrote:

bobmcstuff wrote:

Basically sums it up for me.

Especially the bit about judges being in Westminster or Luxembourg: what difference can it possibly make?

Well, that decisions can be made for reasons other than a desire to remain in office after the next general election.

Shirley Basso wrote:

I would be very interested to read a similar piece for the leave campaign, just to see if I am missing anything

I genuinely doubt that there is any Brexiter who could articulate rationally that piece. Simply because all they have is "out".

Brexit means Brexit, red white and blue Brexit, no deal better than a bad deal, etc.

darkhairedlord

FocusZing wrote:

Brexit: Farage argues for ‘Out’

"The UK had a referendum and they voted to leave the EU.

The End."

Farages latest is to insist on being on the negotiating team.
Why?
He wants no-deal, therefore no negotiation, or is it that he just wants to be noticed?

kingstongraham

darkhairedlord wrote:

FocusZing wrote:

Brexit: Farage argues for ‘Out’

"The UK had a referendum and they voted to leave the EU.

The End."

Farages latest is to insist on being on the negotiating team.
Why?
He wants no-deal, therefore no negotiation, or is it that he just wants to be noticed?

I think he says he wants to be involved with the negotiation of the arrangement for after we have left with no deal. Sounds like he actually wants a deal TBH.

laurentian

ddraver wrote:

darkhairedlord wrote:

Peak Blighty!

My favourite too.

He was a good writer was Mr. Gill

After reading the sport section, his restaurant reviews in the Sunday Times were the next thing I would read - not that I was ever going to dine in such places but just to read something deeply erudite and very funny. On the occasions that he did editorials for the magazine they were of equal brilliance.

It would be difficult for me to add anything to the above to put my feelings on Brexit in to words

briantrumpet

Rolf F wrote:

Shirley Basso wrote:

I would be very interested to read a similar piece for the leave campaign, just to see if I am missing anything

I genuinely doubt that there is any Brexiter who could articulate rationally that piece. Simply because all they have is "out".

I can't remember who wrote the piece - it might have been Matthew Parris - which observed that you'll never see a detailed written plan for Brexit from a Brexiter, because as soon as you try to write one down, the illogicalities and impossibilities are all too obvious - hence their repeated inability to publish the prospectus that was frequently promised, but never delivered.

surrey_commuter

briantrumpet wrote:

Rolf F wrote:

Shirley Basso wrote:

I would be very interested to read a similar piece for the leave campaign, just to see if I am missing anything

I genuinely doubt that there is any Brexiter who could articulate rationally that piece. Simply because all they have is "out".

I can't remember who wrote the piece - it might have been Matthew Parris - which observed that you'll never see a detailed written plan for Brexit from a Brexiter, because as soon as you try to write one down, the illogicalities and impossibilities are all too obvious - hence their repeated inability to publish the prospectus that was frequently promised, but never delivered.

Him and Finkelstein are very good at predicting how the Tory Party will react in different scenarios

rjsterry

KingstonGraham wrote:

darkhairedlord wrote:

FocusZing wrote:

Brexit: Farage argues for ‘Out’

"The UK had a referendum and they voted to leave the EU.

The End."

Farages latest is to insist on being on the negotiating team.
Why?
He wants no-deal, therefore no negotiation, or is it that he just wants to be noticed?

I think he says he wants to be involved with the negotiation of the arrangement for after we have left with no deal. Sounds like he actually wants a deal TBH.

He just wants to be the centre of attention. That is all he has ever wanted.

Stevo_666

Shirley Basso wrote:

"Brexit: AA Gill argues for ‘In’.....

A very heartfelt piece, but if we ever get a position where there is a second ref or similar that could affect the direction of travel of Brexit, it's this sort of stereotyping of the other side that may well motivate them to get out and vote to 'tell us again'. That said, a good part of this entire thread is in a similar vein so I don't think its going to stop any time soon.

shortfall

rjsterry wrote:

Shortfall wrote:

rjsterry wrote:

Staines has openly admitted to running an online campaign in support of Johnson. I think that would count.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... es-blogger

The above link covers Paul Staines campaigning in support of Boris. He hasn't hidden his support of Johnson. That a political Blogger is using his influence to support a politician he favours isn't the story here. What is of interest is Marcus Ball pretending that his legal action is politically impartial and nothing to do with blocking Brexit when the exact opposite appears to be the truth. Perhaps there's a perfectly innocent explanation for him deleting his online activities that demonstrate his motivations?

You initially asked where was the evidence that Staines was backing Johnson. If he didn't attack Ball he wouldn't be running much of a campaign. Ball's motives probably are political, but private prosecution is not reserved for those pure of heart and in any case, I'm sure that will be tested in court. I suspect there is a good reason the CPS as a public prosecution did not take this on, and I am concerned about the precedent such a case will set. I don't for a moment think it will lead to politicians being more truthful - more likely they will avoid saying anything of substance at all, like Farage. But Ball's motivation really is a sideshow.

I asked Darkhairedlord to substantiate the allegations he was making (which included Stained being a rent boy and financially backing Boris). I wasn't aware of the connection between Staines and Johnson but after your contribution I did some research and discovered Staines campaign to get Boris on the shortlist of leadership candidates. Fair enough, I learnt something I didn't know about which is is a good thing and exactly what debate should be about. However that Staines has an ulterior motive in attacking Marcus Ball is secondary to the line being taken by some on this thread that Ball was an innocent seeker of the truth with no axe to grind. For someone so keen on honesty in politics he appears to have gone to great lengths to cover up the truth about his own intentions in launching this court action which may set an extremely dangerous precedent. Full disclosure here, I am in favour of leaving the European Union in a managed way on someting similar to a Norway deal. I am not however a supporter of either this government or Boris Johnson who I think is a pretty grubby politican and human being. I have no dog in the fight except to question the motives behind Marcus Ball's legal action which appears carefully calculated to embarrass and even derail one of the leading figures who might influence our exit from the EU. If nothing else we at least now know Ball isn't all he pretends to be. As for prosecuting and imprisoning politicians for lying, then we better start building a lot of new jails.

shortfall

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/0 ... ands-self/

More revelations about Marcus Balls expenditure from his crowd funding. Behind a paywall unfortunately but similar stories are running on the Mail Online and other reputable outlets (irony alert).

bompington

Since when did the motives behind legal action matter? Do you question what's in it for the police when someone's up for murder? What's in it for the trafffic warden when you get a parking ticket?

If Johnson is guilty of a crime, he should be punished. If he's not, he shouldn't. That's what we have a justice system for.

But of course this is entirely different from whether he should be prosecuted: and, TBH, I don't think it's a good idea. Politicans should be - have to be - kicked out by presuading people not to vote for them, and I think the prosecution tactic is counterproductive.

If nothing else, there are plenty of clever, unscrupulous operators like Farage, Guido and Boris himself, who are happy to use the distraction tactic of "defend Our Man against the horrible attack by the other" to keep eyes off the actual issues.

shortfall

bompington wrote:

Since when did the motives behind legal action matter? Do you question what's in it for the police when someone's up for murder? What's in it for the trafffic warden when you get a parking ticket?

If Johnson is guilty of a crime, he should be punished. If he's not, he shouldn't. That's what we have a justice system for.

But of course this is entirely different from whether he should be prosecuted: and, TBH, I don't think it's a good idea. Politicans should be - have to be - kicked out by presuading people not to vote for them, and I think the prosecution tactic is counterproductive.

If nothing else, there are plenty of clever, unscrupulous operators like Farage, Guido and Boris himself, who are happy to use the distraction tactic of "defend Our Man against the horrible attack by the other" to keep eyes off the actual issues.

Doesn't it matter if the person bringing the prosecution is masquerading as an impartial seeker of truth with no political axe to grind but it turns out he is anything but? Isn't it right to bring this to the public's attention?

bompington

Shortfall wrote:

Doesn't it matter if the person bringing the prosecution is masquerading as an impartial seeker of truth with no political axe to grind but it turns out he is anything but? Isn't it right to bring this to the public's attention?

Try actually reading my post, and you'll see that the answer is "no" :roll:

imposter2.0

Shortfall wrote:

Doesn't it matter if the person bringing the prosecution is masquerading as an impartial seeker of truth with no political axe to grind but it turns out he is anything but? Isn't it right to bring this to the public's attention?

Doesn't matter who brings the prosecution, or how. The only thing that matters is whether the judge felt the case was strong enough to go to trial. Which they did.

shortfall

Imposter wrote:

Shortfall wrote:

Doesn't it matter if the person bringing the prosecution is masquerading as an impartial seeker of truth with no political axe to grind but it turns out he is anything but? Isn't it right to bring this to the public's attention?

Doesn't matter who brings the prosecution, or how. The only thing that matters is whether the judge felt the case was strong enough to go to trial. Which they did.

Judges are human beings. They are fallible. That's why we have appeal courts. Anyway it's academic now as it's going to trial.

darkhairedlord

Shortfall wrote:

rjsterry wrote:

Shortfall wrote:

rjsterry wrote:

Staines has openly admitted to running an online campaign in support of Johnson. I think that would count.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... es-blogger

The above link covers Paul Staines campaigning in support of Boris. He hasn't hidden his support of Johnson. That a political Blogger is using his influence to support a politician he favours isn't the story here. What is of interest is Marcus Ball pretending that his legal action is politically impartial and nothing to do with blocking Brexit when the exact opposite appears to be the truth. Perhaps there's a perfectly innocent explanation for him deleting his online activities that demonstrate his motivations?

You initially asked where was the evidence that Staines was backing Johnson. If he didn't attack Ball he wouldn't be running much of a campaign. Ball's motives probably are political, but private prosecution is not reserved for those pure of heart and in any case, I'm sure that will be tested in court. I suspect there is a good reason the CPS as a public prosecution did not take this on, and I am concerned about the precedent such a case will set. I don't for a moment think it will lead to politicians being more truthful - more likely they will avoid saying anything of substance at all, like Farage. But Ball's motivation really is a sideshow.

I asked Darkhairedlord to substantiate the allegations he was making (which included Stained being a rent boy and financially backing Boris). I wasn't aware of the connection between Staines and Johnson but after your contribution I did some research and discovered Staines campaign to get Boris on the shortlist of leadership candidates. Fair enough, I learnt something I didn't know about which is is a good thing and exactly what debate should be about. However that Staines has an ulterior motive in attacking Marcus Ball is secondary to the line being taken by some on this thread that Ball was an innocent seeker of the truth with no axe to grind. For someone so keen on honesty in politics he appears to have gone to great lengths to cover up the truth about his own intentions in launching this court action which may set an extremely dangerous precedent. Full disclosure here, I am in favour of leaving the European Union in a managed way on someting similar to a Norway deal. I am not however a supporter of either this government or Boris Johnson who I think is a pretty grubby politican and human being. I have no dog in the fight except to question the motives behind Marcus Ball's legal action which appears carefully calculated to embarrass and even derail one of the leading figures who might influence our exit from the EU. If nothing else we at least now know Ball isn't all he pretends to be. As for prosecuting and imprisoning politicians for lying, then we better start building a lot of new jails.

I don't need to substantiate anything, I made no allegations.
Guido bank rolling a campaign for BJ is in the public domain; for someone so well informed I assumed you knew this.
I never said he was a rent boy. I used the term "rent boy"* with quotation marks to indicate I didn't mean he was a young male prostitute providing sexual favours for money and protection of an older well connected gentleman. BJ is no gentleman after all! Further BJ was Head-Boy at Eaton and would have had the services of a Fag, but again, if you mis-inteprete that, thats your problem and your filthy mind.

shortfall

darkhairedlord wrote:

Shortfall wrote:

rjsterry wrote:

Shortfall wrote:

rjsterry wrote:

Staines has openly admitted to running an online campaign in support of Johnson. I think that would count.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... es-blogger

The above link covers Paul Staines campaigning in support of Boris. He hasn't hidden his support of Johnson. That a political Blogger is using his influence to support a politician he favours isn't the story here. What is of interest is Marcus Ball pretending that his legal action is politically impartial and nothing to do with blocking Brexit when the exact opposite appears to be the truth. Perhaps there's a perfectly innocent explanation for him deleting his online activities that demonstrate his motivations?

You initially asked where was the evidence that Staines was backing Johnson. If he didn't attack Ball he wouldn't be running much of a campaign. Ball's motives probably are political, but private prosecution is not reserved for those pure of heart and in any case, I'm sure that will be tested in court. I suspect there is a good reason the CPS as a public prosecution did not take this on, and I am concerned about the precedent such a case will set. I don't for a moment think it will lead to politicians being more truthful - more likely they will avoid saying anything of substance at all, like Farage. But Ball's motivation really is a sideshow.

I asked Darkhairedlord to substantiate the allegations he was making (which included Stained being a rent boy and financially backing Boris). I wasn't aware of the connection between Staines and Johnson but after your contribution I did some research and discovered Staines campaign to get Boris on the shortlist of leadership candidates. Fair enough, I learnt something I didn't know about which is is a good thing and exactly what debate should be about. However that Staines has an ulterior motive in attacking Marcus Ball is secondary to the line being taken by some on this thread that Ball was an innocent seeker of the truth with no axe to grind. For someone so keen on honesty in politics he appears to have gone to great lengths to cover up the truth about his own intentions in launching this court action which may set an extremely dangerous precedent. Full disclosure here, I am in favour of leaving the European Union in a managed way on someting similar to a Norway deal. I am not however a supporter of either this government or Boris Johnson who I think is a pretty grubby politican and human being. I have no dog in the fight except to question the motives behind Marcus Ball's legal action which appears carefully calculated to embarrass and even derail one of the leading figures who might influence our exit from the EU. If nothing else we at least now know Ball isn't all he pretends to be. As for prosecuting and imprisoning politicians for lying, then we better start building a lot of new jails.

I don't need to substantiate anything, I made no allegations.
Guido bank rolling a campaign for BJ is in the public domain; for someone so well informed I assumed you knew this.
I never said he was a rent boy. I used the term "rent boy"* with quotation marks to indicate I didn't mean he was a young male prostitute providing sexual favours for money and protection of an older well connected gentleman. BJ is no gentleman after all! Further BJ was Head-Boy at Eaton and would have had the services of a Fag, but again, if you mis-inteprete that, thats your problem and your filthy mind.

Hang on. You were the one using a homosexual epithet as a smear against someone you dislike so don't try and resile from that now and try and make out that it was all innocent and now it's all about me and my "filthy mind". In fact you actually said (bizarrely) that Guido was Lynton Crosby's rent boy so I don't know why you're now making reference to Boris having had access to the services of a Fag at Eaton. As to the character of Marcus Ball, I think it's worth discusing given that the basis of his action is about politicians being dishonest. He is alleged to have covered up his previous connections as a campaigning remainer seeking to foil Brexit, and of removing online references to this fact. He is also alleged to have paid himself £24,000 pounds from his crowd funding appeal despite saying that those involved were volunteering their services for free. It is further alleged that he spent £50,000 of the donated money on a luxury flat with a private gym and self defence classes. As has already been mentioned this may be academic now that he has managed to get Boris in the dock but I only got involved in this thread as a response to these words from Morstar:

The guy doing the prosecution originally looked into around 10-12 people from both sides of the Brexit argument. The motivation for his actions is to try and hold politicians to a higher standard of honesty.

Boris was the only candidate where they felt they had a strong enough case to pursue. It was not a targeted witch hunt.

I accept his explanation that it was made in good faith but I think it has now been established that the assumption that Ball is just an everyday good guy performing a public service by holding lying politicians to account is highly questionable.

bompington

SF - I am struggling to see why you are getting fixated on one tiny aspect of a much, much bigger picture. And can't you see that the tiny aspect you are obsessing about isn't particularly relevant anyway?

kingstongraham

I can't be particularly shocked that someone who is taking Boris to court for lying about Brexit is doing it because he is pro-remain.

darkhairedlord

"rent boy" is also used in slang to mean a someone that wishes to ingratiate themselves to anothers favour.
Like in US gang/crime movies where they use the term "bitch" "B!tch" to mean their lower order side-kick that does as requested.
Johnson was a member of popping and therefore could "fag" any boy at eaton he wanted to.

bobmcstuff

The Mail publishing some allegations about this Ball character does not for me make him "highly questionable", given that the term "highly questionable" could be used to describe the Mail's reporting. Knowing them they will publish a very small correction somewhere towards the back in a few days. It doesn't seem to be reported much elsewhere as yet, so it's hard to tell much more.

If he really took £24,000 in profit from a crowdfunding campaign, without justification, then it will come back to bite him. But there's 2 sides to every story, and the Mail's is very hard to one side - I can't see any responses or explanations from his side.

The fact he is a remain supporter is hardly a shock.

rjsterry

What on earth is wrong with him paying himself for organising this? It's not as though you can do that sort of thing in your spare time.

sungod

ball's motivations are irrelevant

johnson is a liar, the times sacked him for lying, he lies

it's about time all politicians, whether leave, remain, left wing, right wing, or fruitcake, who lie while in public office were held accountable, prosecuted if there's sufficient evidence, and if found guilty, face serious consequence, not just the typical slap on the wrist, jail them

lying politicians are corrupt politicians, they debase democracy and poison society itself, as do their supporters in the press

tailwindhome

Coopster the 1st wrote:

The Leave vote was very clear in the EU election about how politicians should implement Leaving.

And demonstrated support for that position to be at 34.1%

shortfall

rjsterry wrote:

What on earth is wrong with him paying himself for organising this? It's not as though you can do that sort of thing in your spare time.

Well I suppose nothing except it did say the following on the crowdfunding page:

'This is a non-profit campaign. The people involved are volunteering their time freely.'

That seems fairly unambiguous.

ETA
The above is from an earlier link to the mail online. I can't vouch for its accuracy.

Stevo_666

sungod wrote:

it's about time all politicians, whether leave, remain, left wing, right wing, or fruitcake, who lie while in public office were held accountable, prosecuted if there's sufficient evidence, and if found guilty, face serious consequence, not just the typical slap on the wrist, jail them

If you did that, the House of Commons would be like the Marie Celeste.