So Wiggos now gone...

tim000

sjmclean wrote:

frenchfighter wrote:

mididoctors wrote:

contador is a great competitor...way more ambitious and driven than wiggo, his duels with froome are great sport viewing

BUT in 20 years time wiggins is still going to be the important character from this era and will grow in time.

In the eyes of a British person maybe.
In the eyes of the real cycling fan, Wiggins doesn't come close to Contador.
He has one one Grand Tour vs Contador's 8.
No one cares overly much about the olympics rr and the world's itt is great but not that big a deal.
His track medals - amazing but no road racing fan really cares.

Contador is the greatest stage race rider of his generation. Bar none.

Contador is a cheat. A doper. None of his GT's can be taken seriously. In my eyes he has 0 wins in his whole career, as he is a cheat. Same goes for anyone with a doping conviction on their record. If I had my way, all results annulled and lifetime ban from all professional sport.

+1

rick_chasey

tim000 wrote:

sjmclean wrote:

frenchfighter wrote:

mididoctors wrote:

contador is a great competitor...way more ambitious and driven than wiggo, his duels with froome are great sport viewing

BUT in 20 years time wiggins is still going to be the important character from this era and will grow in time.

In the eyes of a British person maybe.
In the eyes of the real cycling fan, Wiggins doesn't come close to Contador.
He has one one Grand Tour vs Contador's 8.
No one cares overly much about the olympics rr and the world's itt is great but not that big a deal.
His track medals - amazing but no road racing fan really cares.

Contador is the greatest stage race rider of his generation. Bar none.

Contador is a cheat. A doper. None of his GT's can be taken seriously. In my eyes he has 0 wins in his whole career, as he is a cheat. Same goes for anyone with a doping conviction on their record. If I had my way, all results annulled and lifetime ban from all professional sport.

+1

See, holier than thou Anglos....

above_the_cows

I think he's a phenomenal athlete and an all round excellent cyclist on the track and the road.

He has achieved a great deal for British cycling and I think his support of Wiggle Honda is to be admired.

He's a bit of a difficult sod but does that overshadow his achievements? Not really.

So he won a Tour that is considered by some boring. Seriously, if I had the choice between winning a Tour that some considered boring and not winning a Tour. The history books don't write (yeah but it was considered a bit dull by some) after the entry. Winning for me is more than showboating your way up a mountain, its about the hours and hours of hard work and sacrifice that you put into getting that win which is a mark of greatness in my book. The stuff you don't see is why I watch and love cycling. Yes it can be really exciting at times but that's not why I watch or love it. I for one love the grind and watching riders play to their strengths whatever they are. If all I wanted was excitement, glitz and woohaa I'd watch figure skating.

jimmythecuckoo

A legend of the sport who has changed a nations perception of road cycling and got more and more people involved and interested.

More mainstream recognition of cycling irks some sadly.

Forget the panache, enjoy the results and the significance of them.

It will be akin to when a French guy next wins the Tour in terms of importance for me.

The moment GB went from just a track nation to a bona fide GT and Worlds winning nation.

above_the_cows

I must say all this one-up-man ship and denigration of other's achievements is what p*sses me off about a lot of sports and their fans.

It is possible to approach things with a level of nuance and to have an appreciation for multiplicity.

This "mine's better than your's" and "yeah but it was sh*t though" sounds like stuff you'd hear in a primary school playground.

Anonymous

frenchfighter wrote:

sjmclean wrote:

Contador is a cheat. A doper. None of his GT's can be taken seriously. In my eyes he has 0 wins in his whole career, as he is a cheat. Same goes for anyone with a doping conviction on their record. If I had my way, all results annulled and lifetime ban from all professional sport.

That's fine. You are entitled to your opinion.

That's right, and when it all boils down, that's all it is: one guys opinion.

TheBigBean

Daz555 wrote:

We'll be talking about him here and there for a couple of more years yet

I really hope not. If it has to be the case, perhaps this thread can be like the Lance thread.

TheBigBean

iainf72 wrote:

In the fullness of time, Cadel Evans will be remembered as the greater cyclist.

I don't think time needs any fullness, but I do tend to completely disregard track and TTs.

mididoctors

iainf72 wrote:

In the fullness of time, Cadel Evans will be remembered as the greater cyclist.

best WC is donkeys years thats for sure. his consistency in GTs was stoic

interesting what may pan out.... the whole evans sastre thing is a confused muddle I hope comes out in the wash

mididoctors

Above The Cows wrote:

I must say all this one-up-man ship and denigration of other's achievements is what p*sses me off about a lot of sports and their fans.

It is possible to approach things with a level of nuance and to have an appreciation for multiplicity.

This "mine's better than your's" and "yeah but it was sh*t though" sounds like stuff you'd hear in a primary school playground.

great isn't it..

frenchfighter

Above The Cows wrote:

I must say all this one-up-man ship and denigration of other's achievements is what p*sses me off about a lot of sports and their fans.

It is possible to approach things with a level of nuance and to have an appreciation for multiplicity.

This "mine's better than your's" and "yeah but it was sh*t though" sounds like stuff you'd hear in a primary school playground.

Lets not over blow the situation.

Some people like him some people dont.

Almost all say he has a good palmares.

Many say he could have a much better palmares.

Almost all have negative comments about his personality/attitude.

Some people care little for the track or for ITTs. Some people take the opposite view.

Some people think the Tour win was boring. Some people don't care.

If you take one side of the opinion, there is no need to shout down the otherside with some sweeping statements. Not everyone will have the same opinion as you. And as far as I can see there are no extreme counter opinions that you need to break down.

Anyway, I think I know what Wiggins would say to his detractors:

tailwindhome

He wasn't even the best TDF rider on his own team.

rick_chasey

TailWindHome wrote:

He wasn't even the best TDF rider on his own team.

Bahaha, yes TWH.

FJS

Above The Cows wrote:

I must say all this one-up-man ship and denigration of other's achievements is what p*sses me off about a lot of sports and their fans.

It is possible to approach things with a level of nuance and to have an appreciation for multiplicity.

I've just read through this thread, and there's very little 'denigration' of Wiggins' achievements. Mostly lots of respect and positive words. Or did you mean denigration of Contador's achievements?
The only 'criticism' I can see is not of Wiggins but of the statement that he is 'one of the greatest cyclists of all time'. Some people questioned that carefully and are immediately attacked for disrespecting Wiggins.
Who exactly provides the nuance and who the one-up-man ship?

Wiggins is very much appreciated for his impressive and varied palmares and personality outside the UK. And he's certainly not gone yet - there will be much international attention for his hour record attempt.

Of course all sportsmen are more appreciated in their own country than in others. First British TdF win, his Olympic track golds, Olympic gold in London, are all per definition more exciting from a British perspective than they are for say a Belgian, French or Italian cycling fan. But the same applies for Boonen's achievements, or Contador's, etc. Ask a Belgian or Spanish fan who the most important cyclist of the past 10 years is and you'd get a different answer. But to argue that Wiggins is at the level of Merckx, Hinault, Coppi, etc, not sure....

RichN95.

FJS wrote:

I've just read through this thread, and there's very little 'denigration' of Wiggins' achievements.

I doubt ATC's comments are restricted to this forum. There's a whole world of opinions out there.

Above The Cows wrote:

I must say all this one-up-man ship and denigration of other's achievements is what p*sses me off about a lot of sports and their fans.

It is possible to approach things with a level of nuance and to have an appreciation for multiplicity.

This "mine's better than your's" and "yeah but it was sh*t though" sounds like stuff you'd hear in a primary school playground.

It largely comes down to people believing that their appreciation of the sport is superior to others. Wiggins, in the UK, transcended the sport in a way which the likes of Cavendish and Froome haven't. The average man in the street knows that Wiggins has been a great rider so the self-regarding afficianado needs raise himself above the common opinion by saying something contrary (the more obtuse the better).

rick_chasey

RichN95 wrote:

so the self-regarding afficianado needs raise himself above the common opinion by saying something contrary (the more obtuse the better).

milton50

A very very good cyclist who was instrumental in helping to change British attitudes to road cycling. He will always have a place in the history books as the first ever British winner of the Tour.

From within Britain he will likely be remembered as a legend, but not by those from beyond these shores and he certainly isn't one of the all time greats.

dolan_driver

Wiggins is definitely one of the modern greats. Yes, he could probably have achieved more, if he was a machine, but it turns out he is human, just like the rest of us, flaws and all. He may "only" have won one Tour but he did so clean, which currently marks him out as one of the greatest Tour winners ever. It is a fairly exclusive club at the moment.

He is also an independent thinker and a funny fooker!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OxWPdnjk3I8

DD.

above_the_cows

RichN95 wrote:

FJS wrote:

I've just read through this thread, and there's very little 'denigration' of Wiggins' achievements.

I doubt ATC's comments are restricted to this forum. There's a whole world of opinions out there.

Above The Cows wrote:

I must say all this one-up-man ship and denigration of other's achievements is what p*sses me off about a lot of sports and their fans.

It is possible to approach things with a level of nuance and to have an appreciation for multiplicity.

This "mine's better than your's" and "yeah but it was sh*t though" sounds like stuff you'd hear in a primary school playground.

It largely comes down to people believing that their appreciation of the sport is superior to others. Wiggins, in the UK, transcended the sport in a way which the likes of Cavendish and Froome haven't. The average man in the street knows that Wiggins has been a great rider so the self-regarding afficianado needs raise himself above the common opinion by saying something contrary (the more obtuse the better).

I thank you Rich. This exactly.

mm1

Dolan Driver wrote:

He is also an independent thinker and a funny fooker!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OxWPdnjk3I8

DD.

Great seeing that again. He'd be a fantastic guest of honour at any club dinner.

Looking forward to seeing a new 10 comp record and the hour (nice private competition with Alex) and Rio will seal his reputation.

Bo Duke

Bradley is one of our greats alongside Tommy, Boardman and Hoy. Brad together with Brailsford's management genius at Sky and suddenly we were a global racing nation to be reckoned with.

Thanks Brad for making our dreams come true.

Macaloon

There's a nuanced letter in yesterday's Telegraph regarding the Wiggo imbroglio.

Sir,

RichN95 wrote:

I doubt ATC's comments are restricted to this forum. There's a whole world of opinions out there.

Above The Cows wrote:

I must say all this one-up-man ship and denigration of other's achievements is what p*sses me off about a lot of sports and their fans.

It is possible to approach things with a level of nuance and to have an appreciation for multiplicity.

This "mine's better than your's" and "yeah but it was sh*t though" sounds like stuff you'd hear in a primary school playground.

It largely comes down to people believing that their appreciation of the sport is superior to others. Wiggins, in the UK, transcended the sport in a way which the likes of Cavendish and Froome haven't. The average man in the street knows that Wiggins has been a great rider so the self-regarding afficianado needs raise himself above the common opinion by saying something contrary (the more obtuse the better).

ocdupalais

Macaloon wrote:

There's a nuanced letter in yesterday's Telegraph regarding the Wiggo imbroglio.

Sir,

RichN95 wrote:

I doubt ATC's comments are restricted to this forum. There's a whole world of opinions out there.

Above The Cows wrote:

I must say all this one-up-man ship and denigration of other's achievements is what p*sses me off about a lot of sports and their fans.

It is possible to approach things with a level of nuance and to have an appreciation for multiplicity.

This "mine's better than your's" and "yeah but it was sh*t though" sounds like stuff you'd hear in a primary school playground.

It largely comes down to people believing that their appreciation of the sport is superior to others. Wiggins, in the UK, transcended the sport in a way which the likes of Cavendish and Froome haven't. The average man in the street knows that Wiggins has been a great rider so the self-regarding afficianado needs raise himself above the common opinion by saying something contrary (the more obtuse the better).

Wait - there are self-regarding aficiandos on the internet!?! ¡Ay, caramba!
I missed that bit: I was setting up my new Twitter alias - 'ONCE ponce' - with which I intend to start an in depth discussion (under 140 characters - obvs) of the things I've heard rumours of whilst hanging out in one of the cooler cycling themed cafés in the hope of raising some sort of a profile, seeing as I hate my current life.
One chap I was talking to, Les Fukcwits (although I don't think that's his real name) has got loads of dirt on people he's heard rumours about in the pro scene. For instance, when word gets out that team boss Linda McCartney's husband was definitely on the gear back in the 60's and 70's, that team will be in trouble! You heard it here first.

Somebody asked me the other day why don't I stop disseminating toxic opinion, get on my bike and go away? I had to laugh - I'm way too busy with my anti-UCI website and I don't have a bike!

The_Boy

So is he definitely joining Team Wiggins then? I've been having a quick look at their line-up and with the exception of Doull it's a little uninspiring if I'm honest.

Pross

The_Boy wrote:

So is he definitely joining Team Wiggins then? I've been having a quick look at their line-up and with the exception of Doull it's a little uninspiring if I'm honest.

It's a development team made up generally of riders in and around the GB academy set up. Mark Christian is a solid roadie, the others are mainly track biased. I don't think they're aim is to set the road race scene alight TBH.

frenchfighter

It shouldn't surprise you. Its not like Wiggins is likely to choose some exciting riders like Yates.

ddraver

Why would the Yates' leave a ProTour team for a development team?!?

The_Boy

Pross wrote:

The_Boy wrote:

So is he definitely joining Team Wiggins then? I've been having a quick look at their line-up and with the exception of Doull it's a little uninspiring if I'm honest.

It's a development team made up generally of riders in and around the GB academy set up. Mark Christian is a solid roadie, the others are mainly track biased. I don't think they're aim is to set the road race scene alight TBH.

Yeah, I get that they're a development team, it's just that it looks to contain a few journeymen* type riders which I thought odd. I'm just struggling to see where Wiggins fits in. As a rider I mean.

*For want of a better word. I'm not going out of my way to be mean here.

The_Boy

Actually, I've just gone over to cqranking to fetch some examples and I think I might have been misreading some of the DOBs as being ten years out - 1985 instead of 1995 iyswim. Looks much more what I was expecting when I read it properly.

As you were.

frenchfighter

ddraver wrote:

Why would the Yates' leave a ProTour team for a development team?!?

Like Yates. Not Yates actual.