New Bora Clincher or Wheelsmith Aero 50?

124

Comments

  • ugo.santalucia
    ugo.santalucia Posts: 28,310
    NapoleonD wrote:
    To be fair, my Garmin is bang on the money when I time trial (although I always start it recording 15s before the start).

    I am sure it is... things only get messy with stop/start... which obviously you don't have in a TT.

    Different computers will measure stop/start differently and as a rule of thumb Garmin are on the generous side of things... that's why commuting averages can be wildly different and are never anything to be compared or relied upon
    left the forum March 2023
  • napoleond
    napoleond Posts: 5,992
    ugo.santalucia wrote:
    NapoleonD wrote:
    To be fair, my Garmin is bang on the money when I time trial (although I always start it recording 15s before the start).

    I am sure it is... things only get messy with stop/start... which obviously you don't have in a TT.

    Different computers will measure stop/start differently and as a rule of thumb Garmin are on the generous side of things... that's why commuting averages can be wildly different and are never anything to be compared or relied upon

    Indeed. I never used stop start as I'm a believer in speed = distance / total time...
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  • Dizeee
    Dizeee Posts: 337
    Yeah I get all that, and agree that the figures on a Garmin may not be scientifically accurate. That said, I have always had my auto pause set to the lowest possible which IIRC is when stationary or below 1mph. Plus - the commute back from London is not in heavy traffic, as I don't go near the centre, so I am not really held up by anything other than a few sets of lights within the first 4 miles. After that it's plain sailing.

    Science aside, this commute is a route I have done hundreds of times over the last few years. I know that in a tailwind I can make it home over a 20 average shown on the Edge 200 and in a headwind I am looking at an average of anywhere between 17.8 and 18.8. Therefore, the fact I managed it using the same device I have always used in the same conditions yet seemingly quicker suggests to me the wheels are helping in some way.

    But as you have said a TT is the true test and I have been chomping at the bit to do a local 10 again so I can compare my times to the numerous times I rode last year. They have just started again now, so as soon as I can actually make one ( working / childcare always getting in the way ) I will be able to see what difference if any I can achieve.
  • ugo.santalucia
    ugo.santalucia Posts: 28,310
    Dizeee wrote:

    But as you have said a TT is the true test and I have been chomping at the bit to do a local 10 again so I can compare my times to the numerous times I rode last year. They have just started again now, so as soon as I can actually make one ( working / childcare always getting in the way ) I will be able to see what difference if any I can achieve.

    Excellent, what were your previous times on your local 10 TT?
    left the forum March 2023
  • gweeds
    gweeds Posts: 2,605
    Dizeee wrote:
    Gweeds wrote:
    You can easily game figures by setting a high wheel circumference. I'm not suggesting Dizzeeee does that!

    Thing is , I use a Garmin 200, always have. I fail to see how I can massage anything. I set no figures. I just switch the device on and ride. Funnily enough when I go out on one of my regular group rides the figures all match up, so unsure how it is even possible to massage them, I would love to know how to though!

    Someone local to me was posting crazy times - turned out he'd set his wheel circ to something like 2400 rather that 2100.......that put about 3mph on his averages.
    Napoleon, don't be jealous that I've been chatting online with babes all day. Besides, we both know that I'm training to be a cage fighter.
  • napoleond
    napoleond Posts: 5,992
    Gweeds wrote:
    Dizeee wrote:
    Gweeds wrote:
    You can easily game figures by setting a high wheel circumference. I'm not suggesting Dizzeeee does that!

    Thing is , I use a Garmin 200, always have. I fail to see how I can massage anything. I set no figures. I just switch the device on and ride. Funnily enough when I go out on one of my regular group rides the figures all match up, so unsure how it is even possible to massage them, I would love to know how to though!

    Someone local to me was posting crazy times - turned out he'd set his wheel circ to something like 2400 rather that 2100.......that put about 3mph on his averages.

    Heh, I had the other way once. I thought I was just being really unfit. Was really grovelling and Garmin said the ride was about 90 miles.
    Turns out the Garmin had somehow given me kiddie wheel circumference and I had in fact done 116 miles.
    I was gutted!
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  • keezx
    keezx Posts: 1,322
    20Mph average is not soo fast, I can do that at 62 , without aero wheels....
  • ugo.santalucia
    ugo.santalucia Posts: 28,310
    Keezx wrote:
    20Mph average is not soo fast, I can do that at 62 , without aero wheels....

    In Amsterdam at rush hour?
    left the forum March 2023
  • Dizeee
    Dizeee Posts: 337
    ugo.santalucia wrote:
    Dizeee wrote:

    But as you have said a TT is the true test and I have been chomping at the bit to do a local 10 again so I can compare my times to the numerous times I rode last year. They have just started again now, so as soon as I can actually make one ( working / childcare always getting in the way ) I will be able to see what difference if any I can achieve.

    Excellent, what were your previous times on your local 10 TT?

    On a decent course 23:10 and on my local course which is plagued with roundabouts and junctions around 25:10. But all this without any aero se tup, so now I have wheels, aero helmet and a better position I want to see some good gains over these times. The decent course is 5 miles out and 5 miles back with no interruption so that will be the fairer test. I can't see why I can't try and get a 22 something.
  • Dizeee
    Dizeee Posts: 337
    I commuted to work on bank holiday 30 miles each way. West to east, then vice versa. Suffice to say these wheels are biblical.

    I can provide evidence but suffice to say on an Edge 200 ( no bike data required ) I averaged 21.3 over 60 miles. Yes I was giving it beans but also focussed, which is nothing outside of the norm.

    Wheelsmith rules, or maybe I do, either way, win win.
  • Dizeee
    Dizeee Posts: 337
    After a truly epic ride this morning I have just found a noticeable play in the rear wheel - the hub. I have done the QR up to extreme conditions, slight improvement but still noticeable play. Only done 250 miles. Waiting to hear back from them now on Monday.
  • ptlk66
    ptlk66 Posts: 52
    I noticed a bit of play in my rear Wheelsmith carbon 50 wheel today, you may just need to insert a hex key in each side of the skewer holes and tightened out the play. I did this to mine and all appears ok now, but i still have to take on test run, maybe tomorrow.
  • ugo.santalucia
    ugo.santalucia Posts: 28,310
    ptlk66 wrote:
    I noticed a bit of play in my rear Wheelsmith carbon 50 wheel today, you may just need to insert a hex key in each side of the skewer holes and tightened out the play. I did this to mine and all appears ok now, but i still have to take on test run, maybe tomorrow.

    I doubt it's the lock-nut undone... those are held in place and should not come loose, but worth checking as first thing. Some rear hubs are designed to have a minimum amount of play, if you put your weight on the saddle, it should disappear under load, if that's the case, then it is not a problem, as the bike will always travel under load. That said, I am not sure Bitex hubs are among those, or at least the older ones I used to build were not like that.
    left the forum March 2023
  • Dizeee
    Dizeee Posts: 337
    Well this is something I always check with wheels as I am so used to hubs failing. The rear wheel never did this and there is now notiecable click and play in the wheel, so I am not best pleased.
  • ugo.santalucia
    ugo.santalucia Posts: 28,310
    Dizeee wrote:
    Well this is something I always check with wheels as I am so used to hubs failing. The rear wheel never did this and there is now notiecable click and play in the wheel, so I am not best pleased.

    Did you ride in the wet and neglected maintenance? Derek seems to be quite draconian on maintanance and I agree with 95% of what he says (the 5% being that Chris King hubs are simply the best, which I think not)

    http://www.wheelsmith.co.uk/hubs
    left the forum March 2023
  • gweeds
    gweeds Posts: 2,605
    Surely even if those 250 miles were all in the wet you'd expect better than that?
    Napoleon, don't be jealous that I've been chatting online with babes all day. Besides, we both know that I'm training to be a cage fighter.
  • ugo.santalucia
    ugo.santalucia Posts: 28,310
    If you ride in the wet and neglect maintenance, 25 miles are enough to kill a bearing, let alone 250.
    That said, maybe it's not the bearings...

    OP: do they feel rough?
    left the forum March 2023
  • napoleond
    napoleond Posts: 5,992
    Have you called Wheelsmith, might be a better bet than asking in here.
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  • Origami02
    Origami02 Posts: 147
    Dizeee wrote:
    After a truly epic ride this morning I have just found a noticeable play in the rear wheel - the hub. I have done the QR up to extreme conditions, slight improvement but still noticeable play. Only done 250 miles. Waiting to hear back from them now on Monday.

    Is there no lateral play/pre-load adjuster on the NDS of the wheel ? My Mavic Elites have a threaded ring adjuster that simply turns in to eliminate any unwanted end-float. It's not always obvious and may need a special tool. Not all hubs have one.
  • Dizeee
    Dizeee Posts: 337
    Wet riding? lol. No. This is my OCD bike. The bike has never seen water. If there is so much as a 50% risk of a puddle on a ride, it remains in the shed and I take a different bike. I have looked at Strava, delivered April 15th. So far racked up around 400 miles all on bone dry tarmac.

    Just done 50 hilly miles this morning and after getting back and checking again, the play seems to have eliminated itself. There is some lateral movement but there is no click anymore and no bump feeling, as it something was loose. I can't understand that as I tested and tested and re tested yesterday and it felt exactly as my hub was going. It is a feeling I have encountered many times over the years. How it has suddenly improved over 2500 feet of climbing is beyond me but hey ho.

    I will still call and ask him about it on Monday but I am going to need to keep a close eye on it.
  • Dizeee
    Dizeee Posts: 337
    Origami02 wrote:
    Dizeee wrote:
    After a truly epic ride this morning I have just found a noticeable play in the rear wheel - the hub. I have done the QR up to extreme conditions, slight improvement but still noticeable play. Only done 250 miles. Waiting to hear back from them now on Monday.

    Is there no lateral play/pre-load adjuster on the NDS of the wheel ? My Mavic Elites have a threaded ring adjuster that simply turns in to eliminate any unwanted end-float. It's not always obvious and may need a special tool. Not all hubs have one.

    Not that I noticed, can't find any nut to tighten.
  • ugo.santalucia
    ugo.santalucia Posts: 28,310
    Dizeee wrote:
    Not that I noticed, can't find any nut to tighten.

    There isn't one. Preload adjustment is only used in some hubs that use either cone/balls (Campagnolo, Shimano) or clearance sealed bearings (Chris King, Miche, Mavic, Zipp).

    Preload adjustment allow you to compensate for less than perfect machining tolerances and bearing wear, but on the other hand it's yet another thing that can and occasionally does break.
    left the forum March 2023
  • Dizeee
    Dizeee Posts: 337
    ugo.santalucia wrote:
    Dizeee wrote:
    Not that I noticed, can't find any nut to tighten.

    There isn't one. Preload adjustment is only used in some hubs that use either cone/balls (Campagnolo, Shimano) or clearance sealed bearings (Chris King, Miche, Mavic, Zipp).

    Preload adjustment allow you to compensate for less than perfect machining tolerances and bearing wear, but on the other hand it's yet another thing that can and occasionally does break.
    ugo.santalucia wrote:
    Dizeee wrote:
    Not that I noticed, can't find any nut to tighten.

    There isn't one. Preload adjustment is only used in some hubs that use either cone/balls (Campagnolo, Shimano) or clearance sealed bearings (Chris King, Miche, Mavic, Zipp).

    Preload adjustment allow you to compensate for less than perfect machining tolerances and bearing wear, but on the other hand it's yet another thing that can and occasionally does break.

    Great. Ill just keep a close eye then. First TT on wedn eve!
  • Dizeee
    Dizeee Posts: 337
    First 10 TT done!

    In a nutshell - 9 seconds off my PB from last year, first TT of this year for me. Time today was 25:30.

    However, it's a weird course (HCC123A) and the first three miles is the only flat straight, after that it is lumpy and involves a triangular lap with numerous junctions and ends on an uphill. The wind today was easterly and so time was lost on the out leg. So with that in mind, I think that with the wind being the other way round, I may be able to crack 25 or below, just.

    Wheels, well hard one to call really. I am not convinced anything felt different today than before. But, the wind was odd as it never usually blows that way, so not sure. Need to do a few more!
  • ugo.santalucia
    ugo.santalucia Posts: 28,310
    Dizeee wrote:
    First 10 TT done!

    In a nutshell - 9 seconds off my PB from last year, first TT of this year for me. Time today was 25:30.

    However, it's a weird course (HCC123A) and the first three miles is the only flat straight, after that it is lumpy and involves a triangular lap with numerous junctions and ends on an uphill. The wind today was easterly and so time was lost on the out leg. So with that in mind, I think that with the wind being the other way round, I may be able to crack 25 or below, just.

    Wheels, well hard one to call really. I am not convinced anything felt different today than before. But, the wind was odd as it never usually blows that way, so not sure. Need to do a few more!

    To be honest, putting the hype, ejaculation and excitement aside, 9 seconds is more or less the improvement you would expect out of a 10 miles TT using deep section wheels... :wink:
    left the forum March 2023
  • Dizeee
    Dizeee Posts: 337
    I was 9 seconds slower than last years PB.
  • ugo.santalucia
    ugo.santalucia Posts: 28,310
    Dizeee wrote:
    I was 9 seconds slower than last years PB.

    I got it the other way round...
    either way, I'd say 1 second per mile is a realistic improvement, maybe even 2 seconds per mile
    left the forum March 2023
  • theotherjake
    theotherjake Posts: 237
    Re the lateral play, mine did the same and I found the end caps were loose. Easy fix, great wheels. They really give me the edge during my club paceline/cg sessions.
  • Dizeee
    Dizeee Posts: 337
    theotherjake wrote:
    Re the lateral play, mine did the same and I found the end caps were loose. Easy fix, great wheels. They really give me the edge during my club paceline/cg sessions.


    Thanks for the info. Wheel has been better since I tightened the QR to within an inch of its life. I am going to look at again tomorrow. Will update.

    Seen more amazing rides since though, PR's up most hills and just a great ride, something I can't describe. I am just always bang on it and ready for more where others are tiring. I am almost having to downplay the rides. Got a little telling off on a club ride last week for being too quick.
  • mattbell
    mattbell Posts: 203
    Does this post not need renaming? "I love my Wheelsmith Aero 50s"?

    By the end of the season the Bora's will be on offer, then you could get some of them... they might make you go even faster because they're about 100g lighter too.

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