The classics thread

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  • dish_dash
    dish_dash Posts: 5,643
    Cal_Stewart wrote:
    Sagan's finished

    What's Tinkoff done to him?
  • Macaloon
    Macaloon Posts: 5,545
    dish_dash wrote:
    Cal_Stewart wrote:
    Sagan's finished

    What's Tinkoff done to him?

    A session of motivational reaming.
    ...a rare 100% loyal Pro Race poster. A poster boy for the community.
  • takethehighroad
    takethehighroad Posts: 6,810
    Cav will be happy, Milan San Remo is going to keep the same route "for a few years"
  • cal_stewart
    cal_stewart Posts: 1,840
    Sagan's problem is he's a very good all rounder just not great a anyone thing. He'll hover up top 10s and win the odd chipper, but in the important races someone will always beat him, I also believe he has reach his peak early and I don't think there is much improvement to be had.
    eating parmos since 1981

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  • milton50
    milton50 Posts: 3,856
    A couple of years ago when people started predicting that Sagan wasn't going to live up to the expectations I thought it was way too early. But you have to say that it's looking more and more likely that his professional epitaph is going to read "Nearly Man"

    Don't get me wrong, I wouldn't be surprised to see him ending up with a couple of monument wins. I just can't see him ever being THE man in the same way that Merckx, Van Looy, De Vlaeminck, Kelly or even Boonen and Cancellara have been.
  • Anonymous
    Anonymous Posts: 79,667
    Sad thing is until they fix the points system, he'll most likely win the green jersey in every Tour de France he rides in and finishes
  • tailwindhome
    tailwindhome Posts: 19,310
    sjmclean wrote:
    Sad thing is until they fix the points system, he'll most likely win the green jersey in every Tour de France he rides in and finishes

    Why does the points system need fixed?
    “New York has the haircuts, London has the trousers, but Belfast has the reason!
  • RichN95.
    RichN95. Posts: 27,241
    sjmclean wrote:
    Sad thing is until they fix the points system, he'll most likely win the green jersey in every Tour de France he rides in and finishes
    They have changed the points for this year. On the flat stages it more favours winners rather than placers.
    Twitter: @RichN95
  • No_Ta_Doctor
    No_Ta_Doctor Posts: 14,536
    TailWindHome wrote:
    sjmclean wrote:
    Sad thing is until they fix the points system, he'll most likely win the green jersey in every Tour de France he rides in and finishes

    Why does the points system need fixed?

    Because it rewards consistent mediocrity over occasional genius?

    They revamped it after Cav won 7 stages in 2009 and 6 in 2010 without taking the jersey, whereas Sagan has won it with 3, 1 and 0 stage wins.
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  • No_Ta_Doctor
    No_Ta_Doctor Posts: 14,536
    RichN95 wrote:
    sjmclean wrote:
    Sad thing is until they fix the points system, he'll most likely win the green jersey in every Tour de France he rides in and finishes
    They have changed the points for this year. On the flat stages it more favours winners rather than placers.

    That's a serious improvement:
    TDF Offical Site wrote:
    A new points distribution system will be implemented on the 9 flat stages of the 2015 Tour de France to give more importance to stage victories. New points distribution on "flat" stages: 50, 30, 20, 18, 16, 14, 12, 10, 8, 7, 6, 5, 4, 3, 2 points for the first 15 riders completing the stage. Former points distribution: 45, 35, 30, 26, 22, 20, 18, 16, 14, 12, 10, 8, 6, 4, 2 for the first 15 riders completing the stage.

    http://www.letour.com/le-tour/2015/us/pre-race/news/ahc/tour-de-france-2015-in-constant-evolution.html

    I was going to post up the existing breakdown, per stage type, but Wikipedia seems to be extremely outdated.
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  • Anonymous
    Anonymous Posts: 79,667
    No tA Doctor wrote:
    TailWindHome wrote:
    sjmclean wrote:
    Sad thing is until they fix the points system, he'll most likely win the green jersey in every Tour de France he rides in and finishes

    Why does the points system need fixed?

    Because it rewards consistent mediocrity over occasional genius?

    They revamped it after Cav won 7 stages in 2009 and 6 in 2010 without taking the jersey, whereas Sagan has won it with 3, 1 and 0 stage wins.

    This is why. It's obvious.
  • tailwindhome
    tailwindhome Posts: 19,310
    No tA Doctor wrote:
    TailWindHome wrote:
    sjmclean wrote:
    Sad thing is until they fix the points system, he'll most likely win the green jersey in every Tour de France he rides in and finishes

    Why does the points system need fixed?

    Because it rewards consistent mediocrity over occasional genius?

    They revamped it after Cav won 7 stages in 2009 and 6 in 2010 without taking the jersey, whereas Sagan has won it with 3, 1 and 0 stage wins.

    mediocrity is harsh - but is that 'consistency' not the point of the jersey?
    the reward for stage wins is stage wins.

    (we've done this before, haven't we)
    “New York has the haircuts, London has the trousers, but Belfast has the reason!
  • tailwindhome
    tailwindhome Posts: 19,310
    A 2 4 2 4 4 5 2 130 109 93 9 2 115 79 3 133 115 88 92 68 9
    B 1 166 1 1 151 84 166 152 149 155 156 149 171 141 11 140 166 156 141 145 1


    Clearly rider A should win the points competition.
    “New York has the haircuts, London has the trousers, but Belfast has the reason!
  • RichN95.
    RichN95. Posts: 27,241
    TailWindHome wrote:
    mediocrity is harsh - but is that 'consistency' not the point of the jersey?
    the reward for stage wins is stage wins.

    (we've done this before, haven't we)
    It's an artificial competition. It's whatever ASO want it to be. And they want to tilt it towards stage winners. Hence why they originally changed it to favour Cavendish rather than a Hushovd type. And now they seem to want to interest Kittel and the likes of Kristoff, not just give it to Sagan because he can do most things reasonably well.
    Twitter: @RichN95
  • wombly_knees
    wombly_knees Posts: 657
    They'll still have to distort it exceptionally to keep it from going to Sagan. He's just that consistently good as opposed to Kittel who couldn't go over a speed-breaker.

    Mind, I'm too lazy to calculate it in the current points situation. But it does looks rather weighted towards flat sprinters.
  • takethehighroad
    takethehighroad Posts: 6,810
    No tA Doctor wrote:
    TailWindHome wrote:
    sjmclean wrote:
    Sad thing is until they fix the points system, he'll most likely win the green jersey in every Tour de France he rides in and finishes

    Why does the points system need fixed?

    Because it rewards consistent mediocrity over occasional genius?

    They revamped it after Cav won 7 stages in 2009 and 6 in 2010 without taking the jersey, whereas Sagan has won it with 3, 1 and 0 stage wins.

    [pedant] 6 in 09, 5 in 10[/pedant]
  • No_Ta_Doctor
    No_Ta_Doctor Posts: 14,536
    TakeTheHighRoad wrote:
    [pedant] 6 in 09, 5 in 10[/pedant]

    Thank you. I managed to count them wrong on Wikipedia. :oops:
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  • milton50
    milton50 Posts: 3,856
    I have no problem with a rider like Sagan winning what is officially the "points" jersey. He gets the most points during the Tour so he gets to wear the jersey.

    What I do have a problem with is when "the green jersey" is used interchangeably with "the sprinter's jersey" because the winner of the points jersey is patently not the best sprinter. If the green jersey is supposed to be awarded to the best sprinter then they need to change the rules.
  • No_Ta_Doctor
    No_Ta_Doctor Posts: 14,536
    Milton50 wrote:
    I have no problem with a rider like Sagan winning what is officially the "points" jersey. He gets the most points during the Tour so he gets to wear the jersey.

    What I do have a problem with is when "the green jersey" is used interchangeably with "the sprinter's jersey" because the winner of the points jersey is patently not the best sprinter. If the green jersey is supposed to be awarded to the best sprinter then they need to change the rules.

    The Green Jersey has a long tradition. It was introduced in the 50s at least partly as a celebration of the 1905-1912 tours being decided by points, not time. That reflects it not being a true "sprinters jersey".

    Intermediate sprints used to have their own classification, with a red jersey. Now they're bundled up with the points jersey it reflects the green jersey being weighted toward being a sprinters jersey.
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  • deejay
    deejay Posts: 3,138
    No tA Doctor wrote:

    The Green Jersey has a long tradition. It was introduced in the 50s at least partly as a celebration of the 1905-1912 tours being decided by points, not time. That reflects it not being a true "sprinters jersey".
    A good example was in 1992 with sprinter (at that time) Johan Museeuw battling for the Green with Laurent Jalabert and it became a rather close contest.
    I clearly remember a transitional stage late in the race and the ONCE team hammering away on the front through a long climb in a forest because Museeuw wasn't a good climber.
    They succeeded in dropping Museeuw for Jalabert to go on and collect many points that no one would then be able to get enough points for the green jersey prize in Paris. (he won it twice 1992-95)

    So Peter Sagan is a worthy winner over the last 3 years because he is a Rouleur and not just a sprinter which is in line with tradition.
    That's why Thor Hushovd (a sprinter) had to get points with his breakaway riding that other sprinters wouldn't (couldn't) do themselves. (he also won it twice 2005-09)
    Organiser, National Championship 50 mile Time Trial 1972
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 75,661
    Sep GvA have to be favourites now for most of the Flemish races, with Degenkolb in the hunt for G-W and Roubaix.
    _
  • Macaloon
    Macaloon Posts: 5,545
    Rick Chasey wrote:
    Sep GvA have to be favourites now for most of the Flemish races, with Degenkolb in the hunt for G-W and Roubaix.
    I think Stybar's on fire.
    ...a rare 100% loyal Pro Race poster. A poster boy for the community.
  • milton50
    milton50 Posts: 3,856
    Rick Chasey wrote:
    Sep GvA have to be favourites now for most of the Flemish races, with Degenkolb in the hunt for G-W and Roubaix.

    You'd have GvA ahead of Cancellara for Flanders?
  • chadders81
    chadders81 Posts: 744
    I'd have a few people in front of Cancellara right now.

    He didn't get to the front at all in MSR and I can't believe he thought he'd win the sprint.

    Years are catching up maybe?

    Hopefully Vanmarcke has used all his bad luck up already this year. He looked so strong at OHN and Strade Bianche.
  • Anonymous
    Anonymous Posts: 79,667
    What's Sep done to make anyone think he has an level of form to win a monument this year? I'd have, Thomas, Stannard, Degenkolb, GVA, Fabs, and most of Ettixx ahead of him.
  • tailwindhome
    tailwindhome Posts: 19,310
    Rick Chasey wrote:
    Degenkolb in the hunt for G-W and Roubaix.

    The last, and only(?) rider to win MSR and Paris Roubaix in the same year?
    “New York has the haircuts, London has the trousers, but Belfast has the reason!
  • Ashbeck
    Ashbeck Posts: 235
    TailWindHome wrote:
    Rick Chasey wrote:
    Degenkolb in the hunt for G-W and Roubaix.

    The last, and only(?) rider to win MSR and Paris Roubaix in the same year?



    Sean Kelly, 1986
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 75,661
    sjmclean wrote:
    What's Sep done to make anyone think he has an level of form to win a monument this year? I'd have, Thomas, Stannard, Degenkolb, GVA, Fabs, and most of Ettixx ahead of him.

    was the absolute stand out man by quite some way in Het Volk, has a strong track record in all the flanders classics and Roubaix, and even showed some surprising strength in Strade Bianchi which did not suit his strengths.

    Guy looks like he's on the form of his life so far.

    Will see if it continues in the next 14 days.

    I'd even contend that, on form, in 2015, no rider can ride the cobbles faster...
    _
  • milton50
    milton50 Posts: 3,856
    Chadders81 wrote:
    I'd have a few people in front of Cancellara right now.

    He didn't get to the front at all in MSR and I can't believe he thought he'd win the sprint.

    You're discounting the guy who's won Flanders for the last 2 years because he was 5 meters further back than usual in Milan San Remo?
    What's Sep done to make anyone think he has an level of form to win a monument this year? I'd have, Thomas, Stannard, Degenkolb, GVA, Fabs, and most of Ettixx ahead of him.

    Vanmarcke has to be the stone cold favourite for me. Particularly for Paris Roubaix. Everything we've seen suggests he can at least match Cancellara for absolute power.

    When it comes to Flanders the two things that could go against him are the fact that he hasn't got a sprint to speak of and Cancellara has so much more experience. When it comes to Paris Roubaix I think the only thing that will stop him is bad luck.
  • No_Ta_Doctor
    No_Ta_Doctor Posts: 14,536
    Is anyone going to be more heavily marked than Sep though? Personally, I think he'll do a shitload of work in forcing selections, only to have someone else benefit from it. I'll predict a double podium, but no cigar.
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