Out-of-saddle climbing on turbo trainer

amaferanga

What a load of crap from the 2 prolific know-it-alls as usual.

Most folk think they're a great climber til they race so passing mammals on a sportif doesn't mean much!

bahzob

amaferanga wrote:

What a load of crap from the 2 prolific know-it-alls as usual.

Most folk think they're a great climber til they race so passing mammals on a sportif doesn't mean much!

Not just know it all but done it all too, including the "races" you seem to be so proud of.

So I know (and have overtaken) many "racers" who think they are great climbers until they try tackle real mountains.

Just to check. I was trying to find your race results at BCF. All I could find were some not especially impressive Cat 2 ones. I assume I must have got the wrong person. So please link yours so I can assess if you are as good as you obviously think you are.

JackPozzi

OK, pants down, rulers out folks....

charlie_potatoes

SloppySchleckonds wrote:

Great thread, would read again. 3/10

It's improving. 3/10 seems a bit harsh now?

amaferanga

bahzob wrote:

amaferanga wrote:

What a load of crap from the 2 prolific know-it-alls as usual.

Most folk think they're a great climber til they race so passing mammals on a sportif doesn't mean much!

Not just know it all but done it all too, including the "races" you seem to be so proud of.

So I know (and have overtaken) many "racers" who think they are great climbers until they try tackle real mountains.

Just to check. I was trying to find your race results at BCF. All I could find were some not especially impressive Cat 2 ones. I assume I must have got the wrong person. So please link yours so I can assess if you are as good as you obviously think you are.

I don't think I've ever said I was a great climber. Pretty sad that you felt the need to (apparently) find out who I am so you could check my BC results. In the 2 seasons I raced I was a pretty average 2nd Cat and I don't think I've ever claimed I was anything more.

And note that I'm not the one posting drivel and pretending to be an expert. You on the other hand have been doing just that for years on this forum and it sure isn't a better place for it. It's probably part of the reason why the knowledgeable coaches that used to post have all but deserted the forum.

imposter2.0

bahzob wrote:

Just to check. I was trying to find your race results at BCF. All I could find were some not especially impressive Cat 2 ones. I assume I must have got the wrong person. So please link yours so I can assess if you are as good as you obviously think you are.

I think it's only fair if you link to your own race results first. Proper BC races, mind. Don't know why I'm bothering to ask, because I know you won't do it. You make the claims, but you won't back them up - and you're always happy to denigrate others despite knowing absolutely NOTHING about them.

mamba80

bahzob wrote:

OP: If you want to train this way and enjoy it ignore most of the useless comments above.

As far as I am aware none of the contributors are especially good at climbing, either seated or standing.

I've done 100s of climbs and overtaken 10000s of riders, many failing spectacularly when they get out of the saddle.

You should get a feel of whether you are doing it right by how much the turbo is rocking. Ideally it should be as static as possible.

How does riding a fuggin turbo and doing the w/o s you suggest prepare anyone for an alpine climb? bike is bolted up static, there is no one around you, its a completely sterile enviroment.
We are coming out of winter, we ve had a fairly mild one and surely the aims of the OP would be better served riding on a really hill and practicing?
as for over taking 1000s of riders etc etc it is almost certain that it is not their lack of tecnique but rather they are completely fxxked and are at their limits of exhaustion.

Dodger747

I make a point of spending a lot of time out of the saddle on the turbo - as that's how I like to ride out on the road.

Sure, it doesn't fully recreate the technique on the road, but it helps with the muscles needed [arms, core, glutes] and getting them used to holding your weight in a different position. In a 90 minute turbo session, I quite like to spend around 20-30 minutes standing up.

On a trainerroad workout, I'll spend any 'overs' out of the saddle and for other surges in power.

If you don't ride out of the saddle on the road however, I would question the need to practice on a turbo.

diy

Its a great idea. See this video for suggestions:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7JvXhGeIcko

Ok seriously now..
If you want to replicate working the leg muscles or possible the core muscles, you can achieve the same by sliding forward to the nose of the seat.

The only real benefit of standing on a fixed turbo is to work the core a little, change the muscle usage or give your undercarriage a rest. A 15 min core workout would be a lot more effective.

None of us want to waste our time... so if you are doing 90 mins turbo with 30 mins out saddle, to develop upper body and core strength, then personally, I'd say do a 45-60 min turbo and a 20-30 min body weight workout and stretch. 2 x 10 situps, 2 x 10 leg raises or scissor legs and a bit of planking will take 5-10 mins. Some mountain climbers will work your glutes and press-up upper body much more.

bahzob

amaferanga wrote:

bahzob wrote:

amaferanga wrote:

What a load of crap from the 2 prolific know-it-alls as usual.

Most folk think they're a great climber til they race so passing mammals on a sportif doesn't mean much!

Not just know it all but done it all too, including the "races" you seem to be so proud of.

So I know (and have overtaken) many "racers" who think they are great climbers until they try tackle real mountains.

Just to check. I was trying to find your race results at BCF. All I could find were some not especially impressive Cat 2 ones. I assume I must have got the wrong person. So please link yours so I can assess if you are as good as you obviously think you are.

I don't think I've ever said I was a great climber. Pretty sad that you felt the need to (apparently) find out who I am so you could check my BC results. In the 2 seasons I raced I was a pretty average 2nd Cat and I don't think I've ever claimed I was anything more.

And note that I'm not the one posting drivel and pretending to be an expert. You on the other hand have been doing just that for years on this forum and it sure isn't a better place for it. It's probably part of the reason why the knowledgeable coaches that used to post have all but deserted the forum.

LOL. "Most folk think they are a great climber til they "race".<< Your words

I've got news for you. Being a mediocre Cat 2 rider for a couple of seasons in the UK requires absolutely nothing in terms of climbing ability.

And taking part in a Gran Fondo (or doing a time trial for that matter ) is far more of a real "race" than riding a few laps in the company of a few other "mammals" sic. Where you end up depends on your own ability not how well you can wheel suck then get lucky in the sprint for minor places.

I used to ride with a Cat 1. He was amazingly fast. Over short distances. When the distances started getting longer or seriously uphill he was a lot more human. He wouldn't have the stupidity or arrogance to advise people on how to climb.

As for drivel. I post on what I am good at. Climbing, time-trialling and preparing for and taking part in long distance challenges. I don't advise people on how to conduct a sprint because I am pretty useless at it.

As for the forum. This post is an example why people leave. The OP posts a perfectly reasonable question and those like you jump up and troll him, based, as is now clear, on no real competence or expertise.

imposter2.0

bahzob wrote:

And taking part in a Gran Fondo (or doing a time trial for that matter ) is far more of a real "race" than riding a few laps in the company of a few other "mammals" sic. Where you end up depends on your own ability not how well you can wheel suck then get lucky in the sprint for minor places.

Because nobody ever wheel-sucks or sprints in a 'gran fondo' do they. :roll:

So we're not going to get any evidence for your claims then - like we asked for earlier? Thought not.

bahzob

Imposter wrote:

Kind of what I expected, sadly. We only have your word for it that you are good at any of those things. You seem to be nothing more than a braggart who is happy to call out others - but when called out himself, is unable to back up anything he says with actual facts.

Sorry to disappoint you. This thread is about climbing so, as I have had to explain to Amer.. being a mediocre "racer" doesn't really qualify you to appear knowledgeable on this subject.

On the other hand finishing in the top 200 of an etape does. Nor do you get round the Marmotte course in 7:30 (including Glandon descent) if you can't climb. Amer looks down his nose at "sportifs".Still I am pretty sure that, looking at the other riders who finished in the top 20 of the Dragon when I rode it, they were a lot more real as "racers" than he ever was.

For overall ability I would say time-trialling is not a bad measure. It's not my speciality but still on my 3rd 100 I recorded 3:55. That's 100 miles solo at a pace Amer "races" at. On my first 12 hour I managed 240 miles..on a standard road bike.

In terms of "hard" rides. Well the LEL isnt exactly easy, especially when conducted in a howling gale and pouring rain. Still I managed to ride from London to Edinburgh and back in under 4 days. And I am pretty sure I am the only one posting here who has actually ridden the full tour de France route, same as the pros, except that I had to carry my own gear and ride the transfers. Which,naturally, involved doing lots of climbs, the topic of this thread.

I did try "racing" just for LOLs one winter/spring as for variety. I moved from 4th cat to 3rd cat a lot quicker than many who call themselves "racers",including I believe the mighty Amer. In my first 3 cat race I came 3rd in a breakaway that lapped the "E12" bunch that was meant to be lapping us. I stopped shortly afterwards though as, in this country, you need to be able to sprint and I can't do this.

Hope this puts your mind at rest.

I am happy to admit Amer is probably better than me in sticking in a bunch and trying to sprint. I don't pretend to offer advice to him or others on how to do this. It just rankles when he gets all high and mighty about being a "racer" and gives abuse on threads like this that are out of his competency zone.

As for you. As far as I am aware you have done precisely nothing of note. All you seem capable of is trolling, as in your first contribution to this thread. You just seem to want to live down to your signature.

Feel free to correct me.

PS. No. People don't wheel such on a Gran Fondo to the extent it makes any real difference to the end results. They may do this on the flat and save a few seconds, but the climbs sort out the wheat from the chaff where they lose minutes/hours. Which is why a Gran Fondo is far more of a real test and "race" than the ones Amer is so precious about.

imposter2.0

bahzob wrote:

As for you. As far as I am aware you have done precisely nothing of note. All you seem capable of is trolling, as in your first contribution to this thread. You just seem to want to live down to your signature.

Feel free to correct me.

'Ad hominem' is all you ever do, fella - and you have the cheek to complain about others 'abusing' you. You cannot/will not prove anything you have said there. Like Amaferanga, I have never made any fanciful claims on here of my own ability (if I did, I would expect to be asked to verify them). My own ability (and yours for that matter) is irrelevant, despite what you seem to think. Although, based on what you have said, I could probably beat you

Try playing the ball next time, not the man. People might take you more seriously.

amaferanga

bahzob wrote:

Imposter wrote:

Kind of what I expected, sadly. We only have your word for it that you are good at any of those things. You seem to be nothing more than a braggart who is happy to call out others - but when called out himself, is unable to back up anything he says with actual facts.

Sorry to disappoint you. This thread is about climbing so, as I have had to explain to Amer.. being a mediocre "racer" doesn't really qualify you to appear knowledgeable on this subject.

On the other hand finishing in the top 200 of an etape does. Nor do you get round the Marmotte course in 7:30 (including Glandon descent) if you can't climb. Amer looks down his nose at "sportifs".Still I am pretty sure that, looking at the other riders who finished in the top 20 of the Dragon when I rode it, they were a lot more real as "racers" than he ever was.

For overall ability I would say time-trialling is not a bad measure. It's not my speciality but still on my 3rd 100 I recorded 3:55. That's 100 miles solo at a pace Amer "races" at. On my first 12 hour I managed 240 miles..on a standard road bike.

In terms of "hard" rides. Well the LEL isnt exactly easy, especially when conducted in a howling gale and pouring rain. Still I managed to ride from London to Edinburgh and back in under 4 days. And I am pretty sure I am the only one posting here who has actually ridden the full tour de France route, same as the pros, except that I had to carry my own gear and ride the transfers. Which,naturally, involved doing lots of climbs, the topic of this thread.

I did try "racing" just for LOLs one winter/spring as for variety. I moved from 4th cat to 3rd cat a lot quicker than many who call themselves "racers",including I believe the mighty Amer. In my first 3 cat race I came 3rd in a breakaway that lapped the "E12" bunch that was meant to be lapping us. I stopped shortly afterwards though as, in this country, you need to be able to sprint and I can't do this.

Hope this puts your mind at rest.

I am happy to admit Amer is probably better than me in sticking in a bunch and trying to sprint. I don't pretend to offer advice to him or others on how to do this. It just rankles when he gets all high and mighty about being a "racer" and gives abuse on threads like this that are out of his competency zone.

As for you. As far as I am aware you have done precisely nothing of note. All you seem capable of is trolling, as in your first contribution to this thread. You just seem to want to live down to your signature.

Feel free to correct me.

PS. No. People don't wheel such on a Gran Fondo to the extent it makes any real difference to the end results. They may do this on the flat and save a few seconds, but the climbs sort out the wheat from the chaff where they lose minutes/hours. Which is why a Gran Fondo is far more of a real test and "race" than the ones Amer is so precious about.

Still can't see why you think you're an expert.

It may surprise you that other folk have "achieved" just as much (or little) as you, yet they still understand that they're just another cyclist with only their own experience to refer to and so don't post as if they're some kind of authority.

ugo.santalucia

Let's all calm down and have a look at the pyramid of disagreement, where attempting to discredit others comes only one notch up from insulting each other... surely we can all avoid doing that...

meanredspider

Too funny, Ugo. This is "Road - Training, Fitness and Health" - the best you can hope for is Ad Hominem and then it just gets worse from there

ugo.santalucia

meanredspider wrote:

Too funny, Ugo. This is "Road - Training, Fitness and Health" - the best you can hope for is Ad Hominem and then it just gets worse from there

That's funny, as we opened this section last year in the hope it was going to be useful... if it turns out to be a nest of wasps, we'll get rid of the wasps and close it... :?

imposter2.0

ugo.santalucia wrote:

That's funny, as we opened this section last year in the hope it was going to be useful... if it turns out to be a nest of wasps, we'll get rid of the wasps and close it... :?

This section has been going for much, much longer than a year - and it is littered with posts from bahzob referring to people as 'failures', 'trolls' and other such niceties, simply for having the gall to disagree with him. Proper 'wasp', he is, and no mistake.

bobmcstuff

ugo.santalucia wrote:

meanredspider wrote:

Too funny, Ugo. This is "Road - Training, Fitness and Health" - the best you can hope for is Ad Hominem and then it just gets worse from there

That's funny, as we opened this section last year in the hope it was going to be useful... if it turns out to be a nest of wasps, we'll get rid of the wasps and close it... :?

I dunno, I have found it fairly useful, once you learn to just ignore certain posters.

Maybe an "ignore poster" function?

ugo.santalucia

Imposter wrote:

ugo.santalucia wrote:

That's funny, as we opened this section last year in the hope it was going to be useful... if it turns out to be a nest of wasps, we'll get rid of the wasps and close it... :?

This section has been going for much, much longer than a year -

Not much longer... I proposed it to the board.

The general idea is to relax and try to get on... you are discussing topics that are not worth getting angry

imposter2.0

ugo.santalucia wrote:

Not much longer... I proposed it to the board.

The general idea is to relax and try to get on... you are discussing topics that are not worth getting angry

Agree on the second point. On the first point though, there are posts/threads in this section going back 8 years or more..?

ugo.santalucia

Imposter wrote:

ugo.santalucia wrote:

Not much longer... I proposed it to the board.

The general idea is to relax and try to get on... you are discussing topics that are not worth getting angry

Agree on the second point. On the first point though, there are posts/threads in this section going back 8 years or more..?

Sure, but the section "training, fitness and health" is my creation..." or at least the name is...

Eebijeebi

Please don't do away with Training, fitness and health - it's the only one I read!

Shame about the handbags though, all a bit unnecessary.

Agree to disagree, live and let live etc.

hypster

As far as the OP is concerned I don't see what is wrong with an out-of-saddle turbo session. If it's a resistance turbo rather than a fluid one then cranking up the resistance and getting out of the saddle will load your legs up much like using a stepping machine.

Now I know a lot of people will argue that you don't need strong legs for cycling but I happen to think that's bollox. I have ridden Alps a lot and have always trained for stronger legs using hill repeats etc. and never had a problem. However, last year I entered the Marmotte and decided to give the advice on here from various people about how to train a try and basically it did me no good at all. That's not to say that the advice was flawed, it just didn't suit me and my style of riding.

Everyone's different in terms of age, physically and mentally and the sort of training which suits one person won't necessarily suit another. Therefore my advice to the OP and to anyone in general is, if it works for you then do it. If it doesn't then try something else.

diy

Its very common in the fitness industry. Nobody really knows what works and what doesn't. Some approaches are better researched and better founded in science, everyone is looking to brand something new and different. lots of people write opinion as fact based on limited education or knowledge. Then mix that with Cycling which is going through a revolution in training methods and approaches at the moment and we get many tribes and religions form.

IMO the biggest mistake a person can make is to apply the training method of a top racer to a chap who rides 3 times a week and sits at a desk 8 hours a day. Whatever anyone does has to work for them.

One thing I don't get is why there is a separate section for road and MTB. While there are different fitness requirements, they are probably 70% the same.

meanredspider

Ah - last two posts are music to my ears.
We all have
- different experience
- different starting points
- different goals
- different environments
- different physiologies
- and so on...

The more I learn about physiology, the more I'm surprised that any fitness or nutritional advice works. It would be the equivalent of asking on a HGV truck forum for advice on tuning your Ferrari.

hypster

diy wrote:

IMO the biggest mistake a person can make is to apply the training method of a top racer to a chap who rides 3 times a week and sits at a desk 8 hours a day. Whatever anyone does has to work for them.

I think this is a very important point as well and leads on from what I posted. You can't expect to train and ride like anyone else, especially professionals, and hope to achieve similar results. You can try some of their methods but you need to monitor whether or not they are actually providing any benefits.

Also, do you actually enjoy doing it? There are certain workouts that I enjoy more than others which allow me to exert myself a little more and hopefully get more out of it.

hypster

meanredspider wrote:

Ah - last two posts are music to my ears.
We all have
- different experience
- different starting points
- different goals
- different environments
- different physiologies
- and so on...

The more I learn about physiology, the more I'm surprised that any fitness or nutritional advice works. It would be the equivalent of asking on a HGV truck forum for advice on tuning your Ferrari.

LOL, Brilliant! (The Electrolyte Wars are over, hurrah!)

I'm also always amused by the "What saddle should I buy?" threads on various forums for exactly the same reason.

bahzob

hypster wrote:

diy wrote:

IMO the biggest mistake a person can make is to apply the training method of a top racer to a chap who rides 3 times a week and sits at a desk 8 hours a day. Whatever anyone does has to work for them.

I think this is a very important point as well and leads on from what I posted. You can't expect to train and ride like anyone else, especially professionals, and hope to achieve similar results. You can try some of their methods but you need to monitor whether or not they are actually providing any benefits.

If true this would make this forum and most every source of training pretty pointless. This is may be true of the former but for the latter it remains the fact that there are good and bad ways to train and that you can learn from those who have tried and succeeded (or failed for that matter).

Ofc it all depends on your objective. If its just having fun on a bike do whatever you enjoy most. But if you actually want to spend time with the purpose of getting fitter then you would be well advised to learn from the pros and do what they do.

This does not mean you will be pushing out 400W+ per hour. But you will improve substantially and, just as important, know why you have improved and what you can do to improve further. In % terms you can probably expect to improve more than pros, at least at first, due to starting from a lower base.

With specific reference to the point you mention what the chap who rides 3 times a week cannot do is the long endurance rides of the pros. If they want to improve substantially then they need to focus on higher intensity efforts. They will almost certainly do this to best advantage if they use a plan like Time Crunched Cyclist, compared to just guessing what will work.

"Also, do you actually enjoy doing it? There are certain workouts that I enjoy more than others which allow me to exert myself a little more and hopefully get more out of it."

I agree with this though. The OP included an example and my irritation with some above is their unconstructive criticism of this, on the basis of no real expertise or experience.

bahzob

ugo.santalucia wrote:

Imposter wrote:

ugo.santalucia wrote:

Not much longer... I proposed it to the board.

The general idea is to relax and try to get on... you are discussing topics that are not worth getting angry

Agree on the second point. On the first point though, there are posts/threads in this section going back 8 years or more..?

Sure, but the section "training, fitness and health" is my creation..." or at least the name is...

Maybe but the forum is way older. I do agree with Amer that the quality has gone down but I don't accept any of the blame. I started posting here in 2006 and back then there were real "racers" including elite riders, a number of full time coaches and one great old-timer who had done a sub 20 10 back before aero bars/bikes existed.

It was still handbags the, with a major divided between those who believed training with power was the future and those who didnt. Some may find it strange but Alex and I were very much on the same side then. I profoundly disagree with chaps like the old timer above but still had a huge amount of respect for him and some of his advice (power meters aside) was superb and still helps me today.

I took a break from cycling for a few years from 2010-2013 and when I came back this forum was quite different. It was not at all obvious that most of those contributing had much if any real experience of training or achieving anything special.

If someone is offering advice I take it a bit more seriously if they have actually displayed some competence in the area. Of the current contributors I think a small number have. The rest haven't and I have absolutely no interest in their views.