Scottish nationalists- a dodged bullet
Comments
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It did ring a bell when you mentioned it. I think I will stay out of it, as clearly my recollection isn't up to scratch:)First.Aspect said:
And yet no one is making it, because Scotland is a one party state. A couple of years ago there were credible leaders of Scottish Labour and conservatives, but the Labour leader got married to someone from the SNP and quit, then the Conservative leader quit to start a family. The replacements have been utter voids. So the only counter arguments come from a bloke who is more English than a Hugh Grant character, or Gordon Brown.focuszing723 said:
Yep, fair point. Apologies, sometimes I just come here to have a quick look, comment, get diverted and have to leave it.First.Aspect said:
Which leads on to two other SNP lies.Stevo_666 said:
They've already had one independence vote, which was described by Sturgeon as a once in a lifetime opportunity or something very similar. That was just over 5 years ago.focuszing723 said:I do find it staggering how Johnson can have a crack at Sturgeon for talking about an independence vote, as he claims at the expense of Covid. Surely he was doing exactly the same at the start of the pandemic when he was writing it off as seasonal (it looked pretty serious in China at the time). All he was interested in was Brexit, don't get me started on making exceptions/exceptions or Cummings!
She described Covid as a once in a lifetime pandemic. Does that mean she wants another one in a few years time?
1. "Material Change" of us leaving the EU. No, the EU referendum had already been announced. It not turning out how you expected or wanted is not a material change. It was a key part of the campaign and people still voted to stay in the UK.
2. By now we were predicted to have a sovereign wealth fund from oil of £15Bn and growing. Their estimates were out by a margin of £15Bn.
(Okay, 2. is just something I wanted to rant about and doesn't really relate to Stevo's point...)0 -
You're all using facts and reasoned arguments to make your case, but look how far that got the Remain campaign. It's not about the economics or carefully considered pros and cons. They don't need to set out exactly how they are going to deal with currency or EU membership. It's populist three word slogans that can mean anything to anyone.david37 said:
You are superficially right but the circumstances are entirely different. Not least because the SNP assume they can join the EU and keep Sterling. and still be an independant state.rick_chasey said:
You sound like a remainer. Just swap out SNP for Brexiters.david37 said:
its already de stabalised it. theyve been sowing lies, misinformation and resentment for years. Their once enviable education systems has dissapeared, the financial competence of the SNP / Scottish government is non existant and with no one to oppose them they make up ridiculous badly thought through laws to prosecute political rivals.First.Aspect said:
Hard to say. There are a lot of loonies in the SNP. What we get to see are extreme nationalists dressed up in reasonable clothing.morstar said:Not sure on the run your own referendum bit.
There is a recent precedent for that path backing you into an impossible corner.
Also makes you look a bit banana republic when Scotland’s current upper hand is that Westminster is run like a banana republic.
But this is the party that is destabilising their country in the middle of the most acute health crisis in a century, the most acute recession in history and a fortnight after a Brexit deal came into effect, the results of which we don't yet know. So there is clearly a lot of pressure to do something, anything.
Sturgeon ran their health department and over saw the metoric rise of the drug and health problems of Scotland, they have a much bigger budget per head for the things theyre responsible for and yet, their problems have got worse not better under SNP rule.
AND yet, despite all that, the dissent, bitterness and resentment that that harridan sows means the SNP continue. A highly successful politician on that measure. A vile deceitful sow on all others.
It is the same logic to them to leave the U.K. as it is for the U.K. to leave Europe.
How can you not see this.1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
Pinnacle Monzonite
Part of the anti-growth coalition0 -
I wonder if the UK has considered making a special Scottish passport. I feel like that would be enough to win the referendum.
(this is a lazy stereotype based on the Scots I have met)3 -
A good illustration of how nationalists are all really pretty much the same under the skin. Maybe just a slightly different blue for the passport cover, that's all.TheBigBean said:I wonder if the UK has considered making a special Scottish passport. I feel like that would be enough to win the referendum.
(this is a lazy stereotype based on the Scots I have met)0 -
Youre right, they know these things because theyve been explained to a wall of yes buttery . Scottish blind nationalism is far worse than Brexit, not least because Scotlands economy is absolutely dependent on hand outs from the rest of the UK. And they say Rubbish weve got the oil! and we wont take on our share of national debt because Scotland didnt sign up to it, the UK did.rjsterry said:
You're all using facts and reasoned arguments to make your case, but look how far that got the Remain campaign. It's not about the economics or carefully considered pros and cons. They don't need to set out exactly how they are going to deal with currency or EU membership. It's populist three word slogans that can mean anything to anyone.david37 said:
You are superficially right but the circumstances are entirely different. Not least because the SNP assume they can join the EU and keep Sterling. and still be an independant state.rick_chasey said:
You sound like a remainer. Just swap out SNP for Brexiters.david37 said:
its already de stabalised it. theyve been sowing lies, misinformation and resentment for years. Their once enviable education systems has dissapeared, the financial competence of the SNP / Scottish government is non existant and with no one to oppose them they make up ridiculous badly thought through laws to prosecute political rivals.First.Aspect said:
Hard to say. There are a lot of loonies in the SNP. What we get to see are extreme nationalists dressed up in reasonable clothing.morstar said:Not sure on the run your own referendum bit.
There is a recent precedent for that path backing you into an impossible corner.
Also makes you look a bit banana republic when Scotland’s current upper hand is that Westminster is run like a banana republic.
But this is the party that is destabilising their country in the middle of the most acute health crisis in a century, the most acute recession in history and a fortnight after a Brexit deal came into effect, the results of which we don't yet know. So there is clearly a lot of pressure to do something, anything.
Sturgeon ran their health department and over saw the metoric rise of the drug and health problems of Scotland, they have a much bigger budget per head for the things theyre responsible for and yet, their problems have got worse not better under SNP rule.
AND yet, despite all that, the dissent, bitterness and resentment that that harridan sows means the SNP continue. A highly successful politician on that measure. A vile deceitful sow on all others.
It is the same logic to them to leave the U.K. as it is for the U.K. to leave Europe.
How can you not see this.0 -
I think the icing on the cake would be if the UK government lobbied foreign money exchanges to accept Scottish notes.bompington said:
A good illustration of how nationalists are all really pretty much the same under the skin. Maybe just a slightly different blue for the passport cover, that's all.TheBigBean said:I wonder if the UK has considered making a special Scottish passport. I feel like that would be enough to win the referendum.
(this is a lazy stereotype based on the Scots I have met)
Although any country that thinks it is sensible to have multiple versions of the same note in circulation deserves ridicule in my book.0 -
To be fair, you can't blame the SNP for selling this independence, join the EU, keep the pound nonsense. The rest of the UK bought the "have your cake and eat it" / have a better deal outside of the EU story.
It would seem that facts don't win elections.0 -
have you not noticed the inverse relationship between people/areas dependent upon hand outs and voting Brexit.david37 said:
Youre right, they know these things because theyve been explained to a wall of yes buttery . Scottish blind nationalism is far worse than Brexit, not least because Scotlands economy is absolutely dependent on hand outs from the rest of the UK. And they say Rubbish weve got the oil! and we wont take on our share of national debt because Scotland didnt sign up to it, the UK did.rjsterry said:
You're all using facts and reasoned arguments to make your case, but look how far that got the Remain campaign. It's not about the economics or carefully considered pros and cons. They don't need to set out exactly how they are going to deal with currency or EU membership. It's populist three word slogans that can mean anything to anyone.david37 said:
You are superficially right but the circumstances are entirely different. Not least because the SNP assume they can join the EU and keep Sterling. and still be an independant state.rick_chasey said:
You sound like a remainer. Just swap out SNP for Brexiters.david37 said:
its already de stabalised it. theyve been sowing lies, misinformation and resentment for years. Their once enviable education systems has dissapeared, the financial competence of the SNP / Scottish government is non existant and with no one to oppose them they make up ridiculous badly thought through laws to prosecute political rivals.First.Aspect said:
Hard to say. There are a lot of loonies in the SNP. What we get to see are extreme nationalists dressed up in reasonable clothing.morstar said:Not sure on the run your own referendum bit.
There is a recent precedent for that path backing you into an impossible corner.
Also makes you look a bit banana republic when Scotland’s current upper hand is that Westminster is run like a banana republic.
But this is the party that is destabilising their country in the middle of the most acute health crisis in a century, the most acute recession in history and a fortnight after a Brexit deal came into effect, the results of which we don't yet know. So there is clearly a lot of pressure to do something, anything.
Sturgeon ran their health department and over saw the metoric rise of the drug and health problems of Scotland, they have a much bigger budget per head for the things theyre responsible for and yet, their problems have got worse not better under SNP rule.
AND yet, despite all that, the dissent, bitterness and resentment that that harridan sows means the SNP continue. A highly successful politician on that measure. A vile deceitful sow on all others.
It is the same logic to them to leave the U.K. as it is for the U.K. to leave Europe.
How can you not see this.
I imagine they argue that they are being held back by far away, unelected, bureaucrats and once they have thrown off the shackles they will have a return to their future prosperity0 -
I think Scotland would end up with its own pound and would be able to join the EU without giving it up as demonstrated by all the EU countries that haven't given it up, but are working towards it on an infinitely long timetable.elbowloh said:To be fair, you can't blame the SNP for selling this independence, join the EU, keep the pound nonsense. The rest of the UK bought the "have your cake and eat it" / have a better deal outside of the EU story.
It would seem that facts don't win elections.
I also think the UK will underwrite Scottish debt for a few years until it has established itself in the capital markets.
I don't know why everyone always focuses on these bits.
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Why on earth would the UK (England) underwrite the debts of a third party??????? genuine questionTheBigBean said:
I think Scotland would end up with its own pound and would be able to join the EU without giving it up as demonstrated by all the EU countries that haven't given it up, but are working towards it on an infinitely long timetable.elbowloh said:To be fair, you can't blame the SNP for selling this independence, join the EU, keep the pound nonsense. The rest of the UK bought the "have your cake and eat it" / have a better deal outside of the EU story.
It would seem that facts don't win elections.
I also think the UK will underwrite Scottish debt for a few years until it has established itself in the capital markets.
I don't know why everyone always focuses on these bits.
And the Scottish pound as opposed to the uk pound would be a hiding to nothing0 -
yikes
I enjoy the brexit logic of #3 & #50 -
#8. #9 have more than a whiff of the Brexit unicorn about themrick_chasey said:
yikes
I enjoy the brexit logic of #3 & #5
they should greet him at the airport with a bus promising £350m a week benefit from Scoxit0 -
Plenty of small countries have currencies that are stable. Even in the EU. In fact, there aren't that many countries that don't have their own. Examples include Panama, Ecuador, Zimbawe, CFA countries and the Eurozone.david37 said:
Why on earth would the UK (England) underwrite the debts of a third party??????? genuine questionTheBigBean said:
I think Scotland would end up with its own pound and would be able to join the EU without giving it up as demonstrated by all the EU countries that haven't given it up, but are working towards it on an infinitely long timetable.elbowloh said:To be fair, you can't blame the SNP for selling this independence, join the EU, keep the pound nonsense. The rest of the UK bought the "have your cake and eat it" / have a better deal outside of the EU story.
It would seem that facts don't win elections.
I also think the UK will underwrite Scottish debt for a few years until it has established itself in the capital markets.
I don't know why everyone always focuses on these bits.
And the Scottish pound as opposed to the uk pound would be a hiding to nothing
The rUK would underwrite the debt, because it would otherwise be a chaotic transition. Plus, a lot of the debt would be UK debt where the gilt holders were expecting the whole of the UK to be the counter-party. So, I presume that both the rUK and Scotland would continue to underwrite all gilts in issue, but that payments for some would come from Scotland. Perhaps via rUK. This would give Scotland a load of debt in a foreign currency which really isn't optimal, so at some point this would need to be addressed and wound down.
My main point is that I expect the rUK to help and to make it orderly.
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i think that the youve made your bed now lie in it will be the uks response. On the basis of political practicality.
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...1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
Pinnacle Monzonite
Part of the anti-growth coalition0 -
What if Johnson wore a kilt for a week, would that show empathy and resolve any issues?
Or say every Friday?0 -
Good spot.rick_chasey said:
yikes
I enjoy the brexit logic of #3 & #5
Every parent should do that with their children. Give in to their demands at every opportunity to keep them quiet.
It’s a proven technique...0 -
I have seen this movie and can tell you what happens nextdavid37 said:i think that the youve made your bed now lie in it will be the uks response. On the basis of political practicality.
and the other side will whine that they are not playing fair and how could they have known this was going to happen. later when the unicorns have not carried them to the sunlit uplands they will deny anything bad has happened and blame the English barstewards for the lack of cake0 -
9 would make the journey wonderfully exciting.surrey_commuter said:
#8. #9 have more than a whiff of the Brexit unicorn about themrick_chasey said:
yikes
I enjoy the brexit logic of #3 & #5
they should greet him at the airport with a bus promising £350m a week benefit from Scoxit
Take boom and bust to a whole new level.0 -
assuming the Irish had left as well then the Uk would seize to exist but I am guessing as they were issued by HMT we would be on the hook. As the largest BofE will own nearly all the debt by then I am sure they can come to an amicable solutionTheBigBean said:
Plenty of small countries have currencies that are stable. Even in the EU. In fact, there aren't that many countries that don't have their own. Examples include Panama, Ecuador, Zimbawe, CFA countries and the Eurozone.david37 said:
Why on earth would the UK (England) underwrite the debts of a third party??????? genuine questionTheBigBean said:
I think Scotland would end up with its own pound and would be able to join the EU without giving it up as demonstrated by all the EU countries that haven't given it up, but are working towards it on an infinitely long timetable.elbowloh said:To be fair, you can't blame the SNP for selling this independence, join the EU, keep the pound nonsense. The rest of the UK bought the "have your cake and eat it" / have a better deal outside of the EU story.
It would seem that facts don't win elections.
I also think the UK will underwrite Scottish debt for a few years until it has established itself in the capital markets.
I don't know why everyone always focuses on these bits.
And the Scottish pound as opposed to the uk pound would be a hiding to nothing
The rUK would underwrite the debt, because it would otherwise be a chaotic transition. Plus, a lot of the debt would be UK debt where the gilt holders were expecting the whole of the UK to be the counter-party. So, I presume that both the rUK and Scotland would continue to underwrite all gilts in issue, but that payments for some would come from Scotland. Perhaps via rUK. This would give Scotland a load of debt in a foreign currency which really isn't optimal, so at some point this would need to be addressed and wound down.
My main point is that I expect the rUK to help and to make it orderly.0 -
How many brand new currencies of tiny and massively indebted countries are stable?TheBigBean said:
Plenty of small countries have currencies that are stable. Even in the EU. In fact, there aren't that many countries that don't have their own. Examples include Panama, Ecuador, Zimbawe, CFA countries and the Eurozone.david37 said:
Why on earth would the UK (England) underwrite the debts of a third party??????? genuine questionTheBigBean said:
I think Scotland would end up with its own pound and would be able to join the EU without giving it up as demonstrated by all the EU countries that haven't given it up, but are working towards it on an infinitely long timetable.elbowloh said:To be fair, you can't blame the SNP for selling this independence, join the EU, keep the pound nonsense. The rest of the UK bought the "have your cake and eat it" / have a better deal outside of the EU story.
It would seem that facts don't win elections.
I also think the UK will underwrite Scottish debt for a few years until it has established itself in the capital markets.
I don't know why everyone always focuses on these bits.
And the Scottish pound as opposed to the uk pound would be a hiding to nothing
The rUK would underwrite the debt, because it would otherwise be a chaotic transition. Plus, a lot of the debt would be UK debt where the gilt holders were expecting the whole of the UK to be the counter-party. So, I presume that both the rUK and Scotland would continue to underwrite all gilts in issue, but that payments for some would come from Scotland. Perhaps via rUK. This would give Scotland a load of debt in a foreign currency which really isn't optimal, so at some point this would need to be addressed and wound down.
My main point is that I expect the rUK to help and to make it orderly.
Pretty sure Eurozone participation is now a condition of EU entry, as are the economic conditions required to do so. Even the SNP admit as quietly as possible that it will be at the very least a decade before they do. So the reality would be longer.
Venezuela, that's another one.0 -
If thats what they end up doing nothing will have changed in their livessurrey_commuter said:
I have seen this movie and can tell you what happens nextdavid37 said:i think that the youve made your bed now lie in it will be the uks response. On the basis of political practicality.
and the other side will whine that they are not playing fair and how could they have known this was going to happen. later when the unicorns have not carried them to the sunlit uplands they will deny anything bad has happened and blame the English barstewards for the lack of cake.
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Check out "people selling mirrors" on Twitter.
A whole bunch of people gloriously unaware that they show up as clear as day reflected in the mirror.
Just pondering, y'know...0 -
It is is a condition of entry. It is just ignored by a lot of counties, and Scotland would just be one more ignoring it.First.Aspect said:
How many brand new currencies of tiny and massively indebted countries are stable?TheBigBean said:
Plenty of small countries have currencies that are stable. Even in the EU. In fact, there aren't that many countries that don't have their own. Examples include Panama, Ecuador, Zimbawe, CFA countries and the Eurozone.david37 said:
Why on earth would the UK (England) underwrite the debts of a third party??????? genuine questionTheBigBean said:
I think Scotland would end up with its own pound and would be able to join the EU without giving it up as demonstrated by all the EU countries that haven't given it up, but are working towards it on an infinitely long timetable.elbowloh said:To be fair, you can't blame the SNP for selling this independence, join the EU, keep the pound nonsense. The rest of the UK bought the "have your cake and eat it" / have a better deal outside of the EU story.
It would seem that facts don't win elections.
I also think the UK will underwrite Scottish debt for a few years until it has established itself in the capital markets.
I don't know why everyone always focuses on these bits.
And the Scottish pound as opposed to the uk pound would be a hiding to nothing
The rUK would underwrite the debt, because it would otherwise be a chaotic transition. Plus, a lot of the debt would be UK debt where the gilt holders were expecting the whole of the UK to be the counter-party. So, I presume that both the rUK and Scotland would continue to underwrite all gilts in issue, but that payments for some would come from Scotland. Perhaps via rUK. This would give Scotland a load of debt in a foreign currency which really isn't optimal, so at some point this would need to be addressed and wound down.
My main point is that I expect the rUK to help and to make it orderly.
Pretty sure Eurozone participation is now a condition of EU entry, as are the economic conditions required to do so. Even the SNP admit as quietly as possible that it will be at the very least a decade before they do. So the reality would be longer.
Venezuela, that's another one.
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So are the economic requirements, which is the main issue. If we could be back in Europe with the Euro within a reasonable period, I might even vote leave. The prospect of being in Europe within a reasonable period would be a huge plus point.TheBigBean said:
It is is a condition of entry. It is just ignored by a lot of counties, and Scotland would just be one more ignoring it.First.Aspect said:
How many brand new currencies of tiny and massively indebted countries are stable?TheBigBean said:
Plenty of small countries have currencies that are stable. Even in the EU. In fact, there aren't that many countries that don't have their own. Examples include Panama, Ecuador, Zimbawe, CFA countries and the Eurozone.david37 said:
Why on earth would the UK (England) underwrite the debts of a third party??????? genuine questionTheBigBean said:
I think Scotland would end up with its own pound and would be able to join the EU without giving it up as demonstrated by all the EU countries that haven't given it up, but are working towards it on an infinitely long timetable.elbowloh said:To be fair, you can't blame the SNP for selling this independence, join the EU, keep the pound nonsense. The rest of the UK bought the "have your cake and eat it" / have a better deal outside of the EU story.
It would seem that facts don't win elections.
I also think the UK will underwrite Scottish debt for a few years until it has established itself in the capital markets.
I don't know why everyone always focuses on these bits.
And the Scottish pound as opposed to the uk pound would be a hiding to nothing
The rUK would underwrite the debt, because it would otherwise be a chaotic transition. Plus, a lot of the debt would be UK debt where the gilt holders were expecting the whole of the UK to be the counter-party. So, I presume that both the rUK and Scotland would continue to underwrite all gilts in issue, but that payments for some would come from Scotland. Perhaps via rUK. This would give Scotland a load of debt in a foreign currency which really isn't optimal, so at some point this would need to be addressed and wound down.
My main point is that I expect the rUK to help and to make it orderly.
Pretty sure Eurozone participation is now a condition of EU entry, as are the economic conditions required to do so. Even the SNP admit as quietly as possible that it will be at the very least a decade before they do. So the reality would be longer.
Venezuela, that's another one.
But it is a pipe dream because the SNP overspend gratuitously on free tampons, tuition fees, prescriptions, dental, taxis for children to get to school, you name it. Each policy is popular, of course, but unfortunately we can't actually afford them all.
And despite all the overspending, the services here are still sh7t, and we still have A-roads between major cities and rely on military roads built in the 1700's when some of them have landslides.
It is pathetic.1 -
If the Scots that live in the central belt think Westminster politicians don't share their view then those Scots outside the central belt probably hold the same view of Holyrood.First.Aspect said:
So are the economic requirements, which is the main issue. If we could be back in Europe with the Euro within a reasonable period, I might even vote leave. The prospect of being in Europe within a reasonable period would be a huge plus point.TheBigBean said:
It is is a condition of entry. It is just ignored by a lot of counties, and Scotland would just be one more ignoring it.First.Aspect said:
How many brand new currencies of tiny and massively indebted countries are stable?TheBigBean said:
Plenty of small countries have currencies that are stable. Even in the EU. In fact, there aren't that many countries that don't have their own. Examples include Panama, Ecuador, Zimbawe, CFA countries and the Eurozone.david37 said:
Why on earth would the UK (England) underwrite the debts of a third party??????? genuine questionTheBigBean said:
I think Scotland would end up with its own pound and would be able to join the EU without giving it up as demonstrated by all the EU countries that haven't given it up, but are working towards it on an infinitely long timetable.elbowloh said:To be fair, you can't blame the SNP for selling this independence, join the EU, keep the pound nonsense. The rest of the UK bought the "have your cake and eat it" / have a better deal outside of the EU story.
It would seem that facts don't win elections.
I also think the UK will underwrite Scottish debt for a few years until it has established itself in the capital markets.
I don't know why everyone always focuses on these bits.
And the Scottish pound as opposed to the uk pound would be a hiding to nothing
The rUK would underwrite the debt, because it would otherwise be a chaotic transition. Plus, a lot of the debt would be UK debt where the gilt holders were expecting the whole of the UK to be the counter-party. So, I presume that both the rUK and Scotland would continue to underwrite all gilts in issue, but that payments for some would come from Scotland. Perhaps via rUK. This would give Scotland a load of debt in a foreign currency which really isn't optimal, so at some point this would need to be addressed and wound down.
My main point is that I expect the rUK to help and to make it orderly.
Pretty sure Eurozone participation is now a condition of EU entry, as are the economic conditions required to do so. Even the SNP admit as quietly as possible that it will be at the very least a decade before they do. So the reality would be longer.
Venezuela, that's another one.
But it is a pipe dream because the SNP overspend gratuitously on free tampons, tuition fees, prescriptions, dental, taxis for children to get to school, you name it. Each policy is popular, of course, but unfortunately we can't actually afford them all.
And despite all the overspending, the services here are still sh7t, and we still have A-roads between major cities and rely on military roads built in the 1700's when some of them have landslides.
It is pathetic.1 -
Scotlands a great country but seems to be run by the sort of people that get on English county councils.
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Do you know what? I am not a fan of Sturgeon or the Nats in general, but if you want to compare quality of governing politicians... errr.... I take it you're English?david37 said:Scotlands a great country but seems to be run by the sort of people that get on English county councils.
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Possibly: but the central belt dominates in Scotland even more than London does in the UK as a whole. Exactly what counts as central belt is a bit loose - here in Dundee we wouldn't normally get included but, politically and culturally, it fits: Aberdeen is the only proper city outside it, and, depending on how you define it, it has somewhere between 70% and 90% of Scotland's population. And pretty much all the money.john80 said:
If the Scots that live in the central belt think Westminster politicians don't share their view then those Scots outside the central belt probably hold the same view of Holyrood.
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If Fishy holds an unofficial referendum does it open the way for Shetlanders?
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.express.co.uk/news/politics/1374854/scotland-news-scottish-independence-shetland-islands-nicola-sturgeon-malcolm-bell/amp0
