Scottish nationalists- a dodged bullet

First.Aspect

surrey_commuter said:

First.Aspect said:

surrey_commuter said:

First.Aspect said:

rick_chasey said:

Next what? I don't know what you're trying to argue.

Sure you don't want that synopsis? I think it would help.

I might need it. Are you saying that ASE moved an office to Sunderland in case Scotland leaves GB?

I didn't, no. But someone postulated that, yes. The cost saving counter argument isn't all that compelling.

If it helps I used to work with a yank and if he got put through to a Scottish call centre he would hang up as he could not understand them.

I'm English. I have this problem in shops.

morstar

Are business taxes higher in Scotland?

Higher rate tax for individuals has a lower threshold.

elbowloh

First.Aspect said:

surrey_commuter said:

First.Aspect said:

surrey_commuter said:

First.Aspect said:

rick_chasey said:

Next what? I don't know what you're trying to argue.

Sure you don't want that synopsis? I think it would help.

I might need it. Are you saying that ASE moved an office to Sunderland in case Scotland leaves GB?

I didn't, no. But someone postulated that, yes. The cost saving counter argument isn't all that compelling.

If it helps I used to work with a yank and if he got put through to a Scottish call centre he would hang up as he could not understand them.

I'm English. I have this problem in shops.

Why were they putting you through to a call centre in the shop?

First.Aspect

morstar said:

Are business taxes higher in Scotland?

Higher rate tax for individuals has a lower threshold.

And the higher rate is also higher. Business rates the same I think.

First.Aspect

elbowloh said:

First.Aspect said:

surrey_commuter said:

First.Aspect said:

surrey_commuter said:

First.Aspect said:

rick_chasey said:

Next what? I don't know what you're trying to argue.

Sure you don't want that synopsis? I think it would help.

I might need it. Are you saying that ASE moved an office to Sunderland in case Scotland leaves GB?

I didn't, no. But someone postulated that, yes. The cost saving counter argument isn't all that compelling.

If it helps I used to work with a yank and if he got put through to a Scottish call centre he would hang up as he could not understand them.

I'm English. I have this problem in shops.

Why were they putting you through to a call centre in the shop?

I might as well. Could get put through to a translator in Sunderland.

rjsterry

david37 said:

rick_chasey said:

david37 said:

First.Aspect said:

morstar said:

Not sure on the run your own referendum bit.

There is a recent precedent for that path backing you into an impossible corner.

Also makes you look a bit banana republic when Scotland’s current upper hand is that Westminster is run like a banana republic.

Hard to say. There are a lot of loonies in the SNP. What we get to see are extreme nationalists dressed up in reasonable clothing.

But this is the party that is destabilising their country in the middle of the most acute health crisis in a century, the most acute recession in history and a fortnight after a Brexit deal came into effect, the results of which we don't yet know. So there is clearly a lot of pressure to do something, anything.

its already de stabalised it. theyve been sowing lies, misinformation and resentment for years. Their once enviable education systems has dissapeared, the financial competence of the SNP / Scottish government is non existant and with no one to oppose them they make up ridiculous badly thought through laws to prosecute political rivals.

Sturgeon ran their health department and over saw the metoric rise of the drug and health problems of Scotland, they have a much bigger budget per head for the things theyre responsible for and yet, their problems have got worse not better under SNP rule.

AND yet, despite all that, the dissent, bitterness and resentment that that harridan sows means the SNP continue. A highly successful politician on that measure. A vile deceitful sow on all others.

You sound like a remainer. Just swap out SNP for Brexiters.

It is the same logic to them to leave the U.K. as it is for the U.K. to leave Europe.

How can you not see this.

How can you not see the yawning gulf in competence between the UK parliament institutions and government and that in Scotland. Now you might say democracy is democracy but theyve had a vote and the vote was UK not independence.

Scotlands devolved nepotistic government and operations are like those of a censored unitary authority. (see the fanny doctor as a good example)

I can see that a democratic vote is not something that sways you.

Unintentionally hilarious. Nicely compartmentalised. 😏

rjsterry

Stevo_666 said:

surrey_commuter said:

rick_chasey said:

david37 said:

First.Aspect said:

morstar said:

Not sure on the run your own referendum bit.

There is a recent precedent for that path backing you into an impossible corner.

Also makes you look a bit banana republic when Scotland’s current upper hand is that Westminster is run like a banana republic.

Hard to say. There are a lot of loonies in the SNP. What we get to see are extreme nationalists dressed up in reasonable clothing.

But this is the party that is destabilising their country in the middle of the most acute health crisis in a century, the most acute recession in history and a fortnight after a Brexit deal came into effect, the results of which we don't yet know. So there is clearly a lot of pressure to do something, anything.

its already de stabalised it. theyve been sowing lies, misinformation and resentment for years. Their once enviable education systems has dissapeared, the financial competence of the SNP / Scottish government is non existant and with no one to oppose them they make up ridiculous badly thought through laws to prosecute political rivals.

Sturgeon ran their health department and over saw the metoric rise of the drug and health problems of Scotland, they have a much bigger budget per head for the things theyre responsible for and yet, their problems have got worse not better under SNP rule.

AND yet, despite all that, the dissent, bitterness and resentment that that harridan sows means the SNP continue. A highly successful politician on that measure. A vile deceitful sow on all others.

You sound like a remainer. Just swap out SNP for Brexiters.

It is the same logic to them to leave the U.K. as it is for the U.K. to leave Europe.

How can you not see this.

It is exactly the same arguments but some people have switched sides.

Some of the arguments are similar but the circumstances are very different.

Scotland and England have been in a union for over 300 years, one where it appears that Scotland agreed to be run to a large degree by the England, admittedly a long time ago. The EU is a much newer and less complete union, but which was gradually headed in the direction of the England - Scotland union where decision making and powers were being progressively given up: many in the UK did not like that direction of travel and decided to bail out before it went too far.

Fyi I've said before that if the Scots really want to leave then that's their choice.

I don't think they did. Scotland has sent MPs to Westminster since the Union and nine Prime ministers have been Scottish. It's not that long ago that Scottish MPs were key to a government holding power. It's only really the last iteration of the government that has seemingly abandoned any attempt to Scottish seats win seats.

Stevo_666

rjsterry said:

Stevo_666 said:

surrey_commuter said:

rick_chasey said:

david37 said:

First.Aspect said:

morstar said:

Not sure on the run your own referendum bit.

There is a recent precedent for that path backing you into an impossible corner.

Also makes you look a bit banana republic when Scotland’s current upper hand is that Westminster is run like a banana republic.

Hard to say. There are a lot of loonies in the SNP. What we get to see are extreme nationalists dressed up in reasonable clothing.

But this is the party that is destabilising their country in the middle of the most acute health crisis in a century, the most acute recession in history and a fortnight after a Brexit deal came into effect, the results of which we don't yet know. So there is clearly a lot of pressure to do something, anything.

its already de stabalised it. theyve been sowing lies, misinformation and resentment for years. Their once enviable education systems has dissapeared, the financial competence of the SNP / Scottish government is non existant and with no one to oppose them they make up ridiculous badly thought through laws to prosecute political rivals.

Sturgeon ran their health department and over saw the metoric rise of the drug and health problems of Scotland, they have a much bigger budget per head for the things theyre responsible for and yet, their problems have got worse not better under SNP rule.

AND yet, despite all that, the dissent, bitterness and resentment that that harridan sows means the SNP continue. A highly successful politician on that measure. A vile deceitful sow on all others.

You sound like a remainer. Just swap out SNP for Brexiters.

It is the same logic to them to leave the U.K. as it is for the U.K. to leave Europe.

How can you not see this.

It is exactly the same arguments but some people have switched sides.

Some of the arguments are similar but the circumstances are very different.

Scotland and England have been in a union for over 300 years, one where it appears that Scotland agreed to be run to a large degree by the England, admittedly a long time ago. The EU is a much newer and less complete union, but which was gradually headed in the direction of the England - Scotland union where decision making and powers were being progressively given up: many in the UK did not like that direction of travel and decided to bail out before it went too far.

Fyi I've said before that if the Scots really want to leave then that's their choice.

I don't think they did. Scotland has sent MPs to Westminster since the Union and nine Prime ministers have been Scottish. It's not that long ago that Scottish MPs were key to a government holding power. It's only really the last iteration of the government that has seemingly abandoned any attempt to Scottish seats win seats.

Given the reality of who controls what, that point still stands.

The overall point also remains that the circumstances are materially different.

First.Aspect

Broadly speaking, Scotland's crown went bankrupt and was bailed out, grudgingly from Scotland's perspective, by England, with the act of union being the condition.

Scotland had tried to become a maritime power (the "if they can do it we can do it better" attitude seems to be almost genetic) and had failed completely to negotiate alliances with the right powers at the right time, or to chose the right place to try to colonise at the right time.

Many of the subsequent highland clearances, blamed on the English if you talk to any ned who has even heard of them, were conducted by Scots landlords on their tenants, again for money (albeit usually incentivised by policies from England, but to get them out of debt of their own creation).

Nothing is ever simple.

First.Aspect

I should add that an irony of the current climate is that the SNP are going to heavily sell getting back to the EU, because of the whole "against our will" argument. Europe, they say, will welcome us back with open arms. In the meantime we will be a bridge, they say, to the UK.

Of course, they don't need a bridge. They already have a nice English speaking member with a nice land border with the UK that is proving to be a huge pain in the backside to administer.

Of course, they won't open their arms any further for Scotland than anyone else either, because Scotland is inconsequential. They will simply tell us to stop spending money we don't have and come back later.

Much later.

Much, much later.

We are talking a generation later, here, because the deficit is pretty bad.

At least by the time Scotland get there, it would be entitled to lots of economic support.

surrey_commuter

First.Aspect said:

I should add that an irony of the current climate is that the SNP are going to heavily sell getting back to the EU, because of the whole "against our will" argument. Europe, they say, will welcome us back with open arms. In the meantime we will be a bridge, they say, to the UK.

Of course, they don't need a bridge. They already have a nice English speaking member with a nice land border with the UK that is proving to be a huge pain in the backside to administer.

Of course, they won't open their arms any further for Scotland than anyone else either, because Scotland is inconsequential. They will simply tell us to stop spending money we don't have and come back later.

Much later.

Much, much later.

We are talking a generation later, here, because the deficit is pretty bad.

At least by the time Scotland get there, it would be entitled to lots of economic support.

if the last 5 years has taught you anything it is that any future referendum will not be decided by economic arguments.

You need to find the top 5 issues of concern in Scotland and link them to continued membership of GB

rjsterry

First.Aspect said:

Broadly speaking, Scotland's crown went bankrupt and was bailed out, grudgingly from Scotland's perspective, by England, with the act of union being the condition.

Scotland had tried to become a maritime power (the "if they can do it we can do it better" attitude seems to be almost genetic) and had failed completely to negotiate alliances with the right powers at the right time, or to chose the right place to try to colonise at the right time.

Many of the subsequent highland clearances, blamed on the English if you talk to any ned who has even heard of them, were conducted by Scots landlords on their tenants, again for money (albeit usually incentivised by policies from England, but to get them out of debt of their own creation).

Nothing is ever simple.

TBF to Scotland they were far from the only nation trying to get a piece of the New World action. That period of history is fascinating for the number of mad schemes to 'invest' in this or that prospective colony. Which ones succeeded and which failed was largely a matter of chance.

First.Aspect

surrey_commuter said:

First.Aspect said:

I should add that an irony of the current climate is that the SNP are going to heavily sell getting back to the EU, because of the whole "against our will" argument. Europe, they say, will welcome us back with open arms. In the meantime we will be a bridge, they say, to the UK.

Of course, they don't need a bridge. They already have a nice English speaking member with a nice land border with the UK that is proving to be a huge pain in the backside to administer.

Of course, they won't open their arms any further for Scotland than anyone else either, because Scotland is inconsequential. They will simply tell us to stop spending money we don't have and come back later.

Much later.

Much, much later.

We are talking a generation later, here, because the deficit is pretty bad.

At least by the time Scotland get there, it would be entitled to lots of economic support.

if the last 5 years has taught you anything it is that any future referendum will not be decided by economic arguments.

You need to find the top 5 issues of concern in Scotland and link them to continued membership of GB

The problem is that the top 5 issues of concern will all be rooted in economic arguments, but sold with a bit of tartan and blue/white face paint.

What starts with the decisions "they" make is by implication suggesting that "we" would make different decisions. Most of those decisions (NHS, schools, tax, counsel services, potholes, even some benefits) are all already made locally.

The only difference that independence would make is that "we" would have a lot less money available with which to make them.

We can then tax the rich of course. Which would probably exclude business tax, because we will be desperate to stop hemorrhaging businesses, so it means taxing "the rich". The rich are of course hateful people who evade tax and so that's okay. Only, "the rich" will turn out to be almost everyone.

surrey_commuter

First.Aspect said:

surrey_commuter said:

First.Aspect said:

I should add that an irony of the current climate is that the SNP are going to heavily sell getting back to the EU, because of the whole "against our will" argument. Europe, they say, will welcome us back with open arms. In the meantime we will be a bridge, they say, to the UK.

Of course, they don't need a bridge. They already have a nice English speaking member with a nice land border with the UK that is proving to be a huge pain in the backside to administer.

Of course, they won't open their arms any further for Scotland than anyone else either, because Scotland is inconsequential. They will simply tell us to stop spending money we don't have and come back later.

Much later.

Much, much later.

We are talking a generation later, here, because the deficit is pretty bad.

At least by the time Scotland get there, it would be entitled to lots of economic support.

if the last 5 years has taught you anything it is that any future referendum will not be decided by economic arguments.

You need to find the top 5 issues of concern in Scotland and link them to continued membership of GB

The problem is that the top 5 issues of concern will all be rooted in economic arguments, but sold with a bit of tartan and blue/white face paint.

What starts with the decisions "they" make is by implication suggesting that "we" would make different decisions. Most of those decisions (NHS, schools, tax, counsel services, potholes, even some benefits) are all already made locally.

The only difference that independence would make is that "we" would have a lot less money available with which to make them.

We can then tax the rich of course. Which would probably exclude business tax, because we will be desperate to stop hemorrhaging businesses, so it means taxing "the rich". The rich are of course hateful people who evade tax and so that's okay. Only, "the rich" will turn out to be almost everyone.

just need to leave "the rich" as a nebulous "people who earn more than you"

First.Aspect

surrey_commuter said:

First.Aspect said:

surrey_commuter said:

First.Aspect said:

I should add that an irony of the current climate is that the SNP are going to heavily sell getting back to the EU, because of the whole "against our will" argument. Europe, they say, will welcome us back with open arms. In the meantime we will be a bridge, they say, to the UK.

Of course, they don't need a bridge. They already have a nice English speaking member with a nice land border with the UK that is proving to be a huge pain in the backside to administer.

Of course, they won't open their arms any further for Scotland than anyone else either, because Scotland is inconsequential. They will simply tell us to stop spending money we don't have and come back later.

Much later.

Much, much later.

We are talking a generation later, here, because the deficit is pretty bad.

At least by the time Scotland get there, it would be entitled to lots of economic support.

if the last 5 years has taught you anything it is that any future referendum will not be decided by economic arguments.

You need to find the top 5 issues of concern in Scotland and link them to continued membership of GB

The problem is that the top 5 issues of concern will all be rooted in economic arguments, but sold with a bit of tartan and blue/white face paint.

What starts with the decisions "they" make is by implication suggesting that "we" would make different decisions. Most of those decisions (NHS, schools, tax, counsel services, potholes, even some benefits) are all already made locally.

The only difference that independence would make is that "we" would have a lot less money available with which to make them.

We can then tax the rich of course. Which would probably exclude business tax, because we will be desperate to stop hemorrhaging businesses, so it means taxing "the rich". The rich are of course hateful people who evade tax and so that's okay. Only, "the rich" will turn out to be almost everyone.

just need to leave "the rich" as a nebulous "people who earn more than you"

Yes. But most people think that, don't they.
The "rich" will turn out to be any basic rate tax payer, or they will lower the thresholds so that "higher rate" is even closer to the national average than it already is.

I've just remembered a funny bit of indignance-gymnastics from the last time around. Scotland tries to leave UK. UK says oh dear, we would have to build that ship for the UK navy in Portsmouth instead then. Scotland cries foul.

Unbefuckinglievable.

focuszing723

I do find it staggering how Johnson can have a crack at Sturgeon for talking about an independence vote, as he claims at the expense of Covid. Surely he was doing exactly the same at the start of the pandemic when he was writing it off as seasonal (it looked pretty serious in China at the time). All he was interested in was Brexit, don't get me started on making exceptions/excuses or Cummings!

First.Aspect

focuszing723 said:

I do find it staggering how Johnson can have a crack at Sturgeon for talking about an independence vote, as he claims at the expense of Covid. Surely he was doing exactly the same at the start of the pandemic when he was writing it off as seasonal (it looked pretty serious in China at the time). All he was interested in was Brexit, don't get me started on making exceptions/exceptions or Cummings!

Johnson sets such a low bar, I am not sure it is a helpful way to assess anyone else against.

Stevo_666

focuszing723 said:

I do find it staggering how Johnson can have a crack at Sturgeon for talking about an independence vote, as he claims at the expense of Covid. Surely he was doing exactly the same at the start of the pandemic when he was writing it off as seasonal (it looked pretty serious in China at the time). All he was interested in was Brexit, don't get me started on making exceptions/exceptions or Cummings!

They've already had one independence vote, which was described by Sturgeon as a once in a lifetime opportunity or something very similar. That was just over 5 years ago.

She described Covid as a once in a lifetime pandemic. Does that mean she wants another one in a few years time?

focuszing723

First.Aspect said:

focuszing723 said:

I do find it staggering how Johnson can have a crack at Sturgeon for talking about an independence vote, as he claims at the expense of Covid. Surely he was doing exactly the same at the start of the pandemic when he was writing it off as seasonal (it looked pretty serious in China at the time). All he was interested in was Brexit, don't get me started on making exceptions/exceptions or Cummings!

Johnson sets such a low bar, I am not sure it is a helpful way to assess anyone else against.

It does make you wonder sometimes how people have the front to completely ignore their own actions as if the general public can't see it. I'm English and really like Scotland too, I've explored it skied there and I wouldn't want it to be independent, but who can are argue if that's what people want, given Johnsons example?

First.Aspect

Stevo_666 said:

focuszing723 said:

I do find it staggering how Johnson can have a crack at Sturgeon for talking about an independence vote, as he claims at the expense of Covid. Surely he was doing exactly the same at the start of the pandemic when he was writing it off as seasonal (it looked pretty serious in China at the time). All he was interested in was Brexit, don't get me started on making exceptions/exceptions or Cummings!

They've already had one independence vote, which was described by Sturgeon as a once in a lifetime opportunity or something very similar. That was just over 5 years ago.

She described Covid as a once in a lifetime pandemic. Does that mean she wants another one in a few years time?

Which leads on to two other SNP lies.

1. "Material Change" of us leaving the EU. No, the EU referendum had already been announced. It not turning out how you expected or wanted is not a material change. It was a key part of the campaign and people still voted to stay in the UK.

2. By now we were predicted to have a sovereign wealth fund from oil of £15Bn and growing. Their estimates were out by a margin of £15Bn.

(Okay, 2. is just something I wanted to rant about and doesn't really relate to Stevo's point...)

focuszing723

Stevo_666 said:

focuszing723 said:

I do find it staggering how Johnson can have a crack at Sturgeon for talking about an independence vote, as he claims at the expense of Covid. Surely he was doing exactly the same at the start of the pandemic when he was writing it off as seasonal (it looked pretty serious in China at the time). All he was interested in was Brexit, don't get me started on making exceptions/exceptions or Cummings!

They've already had one independence vote, which was described by Sturgeon as a once in a lifetime opportunity or something very similar. That was just over 5 years ago.

She described Covid as a once in a lifetime pandemic. Does that mean she wants another one in a few years time?

No. I don't think that can wash after Brexit, especially as the Scottish voted to remain.

First.Aspect

focuszing723 said:

Stevo_666 said:

focuszing723 said:

I do find it staggering how Johnson can have a crack at Sturgeon for talking about an independence vote, as he claims at the expense of Covid. Surely he was doing exactly the same at the start of the pandemic when he was writing it off as seasonal (it looked pretty serious in China at the time). All he was interested in was Brexit, don't get me started on making exceptions/exceptions or Cummings!

They've already had one independence vote, which was described by Sturgeon as a once in a lifetime opportunity or something very similar. That was just over 5 years ago.

She described Covid as a once in a lifetime pandemic. Does that mean she wants another one in a few years time?

No. I don't think that can wash after Brexit, especially as the Scottish voted to remain.

Did you even read what I wrote?

david37

rick_chasey said:

david37 said:

First.Aspect said:

morstar said:

Not sure on the run your own referendum bit.

There is a recent precedent for that path backing you into an impossible corner.

Also makes you look a bit banana republic when Scotland’s current upper hand is that Westminster is run like a banana republic.

Hard to say. There are a lot of loonies in the SNP. What we get to see are extreme nationalists dressed up in reasonable clothing.

But this is the party that is destabilising their country in the middle of the most acute health crisis in a century, the most acute recession in history and a fortnight after a Brexit deal came into effect, the results of which we don't yet know. So there is clearly a lot of pressure to do something, anything.

its already de stabalised it. theyve been sowing lies, misinformation and resentment for years. Their once enviable education systems has dissapeared, the financial competence of the SNP / Scottish government is non existant and with no one to oppose them they make up ridiculous badly thought through laws to prosecute political rivals.

Sturgeon ran their health department and over saw the metoric rise of the drug and health problems of Scotland, they have a much bigger budget per head for the things theyre responsible for and yet, their problems have got worse not better under SNP rule.

AND yet, despite all that, the dissent, bitterness and resentment that that harridan sows means the SNP continue. A highly successful politician on that measure. A vile deceitful sow on all others.

You sound like a remainer. Just swap out SNP for Brexiters.

It is the same logic to them to leave the U.K. as it is for the U.K. to leave Europe.

How can you not see this.

You are superficially right but the circumstances are entirely different. Not least because the SNP assume they can join the EU and keep Sterling. and still be an independant state.

david37

elbowloh said:

david37 said:

rick_chasey said:

david37 said:

First.Aspect said:

morstar said:

Not sure on the run your own referendum bit.

There is a recent precedent for that path backing you into an impossible corner.

Also makes you look a bit banana republic when Scotland’s current upper hand is that Westminster is run like a banana republic.

Hard to say. There are a lot of loonies in the SNP. What we get to see are extreme nationalists dressed up in reasonable clothing.

But this is the party that is destabilising their country in the middle of the most acute health crisis in a century, the most acute recession in history and a fortnight after a Brexit deal came into effect, the results of which we don't yet know. So there is clearly a lot of pressure to do something, anything.

its already de stabalised it. theyve been sowing lies, misinformation and resentment for years. Their once enviable education systems has dissapeared, the financial competence of the SNP / Scottish government is non existant and with no one to oppose them they make up ridiculous badly thought through laws to prosecute political rivals.

Sturgeon ran their health department and over saw the metoric rise of the drug and health problems of Scotland, they have a much bigger budget per head for the things theyre responsible for and yet, their problems have got worse not better under SNP rule.

AND yet, despite all that, the dissent, bitterness and resentment that that harridan sows means the SNP continue. A highly successful politician on that measure. A vile deceitful sow on all others.

You sound like a remainer. Just swap out SNP for Brexiters.

It is the same logic to them to leave the U.K. as it is for the U.K. to leave Europe.

How can you not see this.

How can you not see the yawning gulf in competence between the UK parliament institutions and government and that in Scotland. Now you might say democracy is democracy but theyve had a vote and the vote was UK not independence.

Scotlands devolved nepotistic government and operations are like those of a censored unitary authority. (see the fanny doctor as a good example)

I can see that a democratic vote is not something that sways you.

Are you saying the UK government isn't nepotistic?

Where the censored have you been. How many friends of ministers and MPs received lucrative COVID contracts, often with no experience in the field. Who got appointed to big, new jobs heading up agencies?

When we talk about competence, how many of our government have been sacked previously from ministerial and other roles for either lying or for just being censored (the PM included)?

You should follow scottish politics more, the concentration of sex offenders is far higher than even Westminster.

focuszing723

First.Aspect said:

Stevo_666 said:

focuszing723 said:

I do find it staggering how Johnson can have a crack at Sturgeon for talking about an independence vote, as he claims at the expense of Covid. Surely he was doing exactly the same at the start of the pandemic when he was writing it off as seasonal (it looked pretty serious in China at the time). All he was interested in was Brexit, don't get me started on making exceptions/exceptions or Cummings!

They've already had one independence vote, which was described by Sturgeon as a once in a lifetime opportunity or something very similar. That was just over 5 years ago.

She described Covid as a once in a lifetime pandemic. Does that mean she wants another one in a few years time?

Which leads on to two other SNP lies.

1. "Material Change" of us leaving the EU. No, the EU referendum had already been announced. It not turning out how you expected or wanted is not a material change. It was a key part of the campaign and people still voted to stay in the UK.

2. By now we were predicted to have a sovereign wealth fund from oil of £15Bn and growing. Their estimates were out by a margin of £15Bn.

(Okay, 2. is just something I wanted to rant about and doesn't really relate to Stevo's point...)

Yep, fair point. Apologies, sometimes I just come here to have a quick look, comment, get diverted and have to leave it.

david37

rick_chasey said:

First.Aspect said:

rick_chasey said:

surrey_commuter said:

rick_chasey said:

You misunderstand me.

I’m not talking about the ref.

I’m saying the logic of Brexit and the logic of Scottish independence is extremely similar so I find it really weird you want to keep Scotland in the U.K. but support Brexit.

And I will ignore your comment about English competence vs Scottish - that is not very safe ground at all.

Now, now Rick, don’t go putting words into his mouth, he only referred to a gulf in competency, it is you projecting English competence onto him.

Show me the death rate break down between England and the other regions and talk to me about competence.

That alone is a real problem for unionists.

You don't know what you are talking about. Based on the population density in Scotland it is doing about as well or worse that one would expect. Glasgow has struggled in exactly the same way as other big UK cities.

A better comparison would be Ireland or even Norway or Finland.

I thought the whole thing with Scottish population distribution meant that something like 80% of them live in urban areas?

Spoken like a true london centric person .

First.Aspect

david37 said:

rick_chasey said:

First.Aspect said:

rick_chasey said:

surrey_commuter said:

rick_chasey said:

You misunderstand me.

I’m not talking about the ref.

I’m saying the logic of Brexit and the logic of Scottish independence is extremely similar so I find it really weird you want to keep Scotland in the U.K. but support Brexit.

And I will ignore your comment about English competence vs Scottish - that is not very safe ground at all.

Now, now Rick, don’t go putting words into his mouth, he only referred to a gulf in competency, it is you projecting English competence onto him.

Show me the death rate break down between England and the other regions and talk to me about competence.

That alone is a real problem for unionists.

You don't know what you are talking about. Based on the population density in Scotland it is doing about as well or worse that one would expect. Glasgow has struggled in exactly the same way as other big UK cities.

A better comparison would be Ireland or even Norway or Finland.

I thought the whole thing with Scottish population distribution meant that something like 80% of them live in urban areas?

Spoken like a true london centric person .

Indeed. Idiotic.

By that metric Iceland would be more urban than England, at a guess.

surrey_commuter

david37 said:

rick_chasey said:

david37 said:

First.Aspect said:

morstar said:

Not sure on the run your own referendum bit.

There is a recent precedent for that path backing you into an impossible corner.

Also makes you look a bit banana republic when Scotland’s current upper hand is that Westminster is run like a banana republic.

Hard to say. There are a lot of loonies in the SNP. What we get to see are extreme nationalists dressed up in reasonable clothing.

But this is the party that is destabilising their country in the middle of the most acute health crisis in a century, the most acute recession in history and a fortnight after a Brexit deal came into effect, the results of which we don't yet know. So there is clearly a lot of pressure to do something, anything.

its already de stabalised it. theyve been sowing lies, misinformation and resentment for years. Their once enviable education systems has dissapeared, the financial competence of the SNP / Scottish government is non existant and with no one to oppose them they make up ridiculous badly thought through laws to prosecute political rivals.

Sturgeon ran their health department and over saw the metoric rise of the drug and health problems of Scotland, they have a much bigger budget per head for the things theyre responsible for and yet, their problems have got worse not better under SNP rule.

AND yet, despite all that, the dissent, bitterness and resentment that that harridan sows means the SNP continue. A highly successful politician on that measure. A vile deceitful sow on all others.

You sound like a remainer. Just swap out SNP for Brexiters.

It is the same logic to them to leave the U.K. as it is for the U.K. to leave Europe.

How can you not see this.

You are superficially right but the circumstances are entirely different. Not least because the SNP assume they can join the EU and keep Sterling. and still be an independant state.

Would it help spot the similarities if they referred to it as their cake and eat it policy.

First.Aspect

focuszing723 said:

First.Aspect said:

Stevo_666 said:

focuszing723 said:

I do find it staggering how Johnson can have a crack at Sturgeon for talking about an independence vote, as he claims at the expense of Covid. Surely he was doing exactly the same at the start of the pandemic when he was writing it off as seasonal (it looked pretty serious in China at the time). All he was interested in was Brexit, don't get me started on making exceptions/exceptions or Cummings!

They've already had one independence vote, which was described by Sturgeon as a once in a lifetime opportunity or something very similar. That was just over 5 years ago.

She described Covid as a once in a lifetime pandemic. Does that mean she wants another one in a few years time?

Which leads on to two other SNP lies.

1. "Material Change" of us leaving the EU. No, the EU referendum had already been announced. It not turning out how you expected or wanted is not a material change. It was a key part of the campaign and people still voted to stay in the UK.

2. By now we were predicted to have a sovereign wealth fund from oil of £15Bn and growing. Their estimates were out by a margin of £15Bn.

(Okay, 2. is just something I wanted to rant about and doesn't really relate to Stevo's point...)

Yep, fair point. Apologies, sometimes I just come here to have a quick look, comment, get diverted and have to leave it.

And yet no one is making it, because Scotland is a one party state. A couple of years ago there were credible leaders of Scottish Labour and conservatives, but the Labour leader got married to someone from the SNP and quit, then the Conservative leader quit to start a family. The replacements have been utter voids. So the only counter arguments come from a bloke who is more English than a Hugh Grant character, or Gordon Brown.

elbowloh

david37 said:

rick_chasey said:

david37 said:

First.Aspect said:

morstar said:

Not sure on the run your own referendum bit.

There is a recent precedent for that path backing you into an impossible corner.

Also makes you look a bit banana republic when Scotland’s current upper hand is that Westminster is run like a banana republic.

Hard to say. There are a lot of loonies in the SNP. What we get to see are extreme nationalists dressed up in reasonable clothing.

But this is the party that is destabilising their country in the middle of the most acute health crisis in a century, the most acute recession in history and a fortnight after a Brexit deal came into effect, the results of which we don't yet know. So there is clearly a lot of pressure to do something, anything.

its already de stabalised it. theyve been sowing lies, misinformation and resentment for years. Their once enviable education systems has dissapeared, the financial competence of the SNP / Scottish government is non existant and with no one to oppose them they make up ridiculous badly thought through laws to prosecute political rivals.

Sturgeon ran their health department and over saw the metoric rise of the drug and health problems of Scotland, they have a much bigger budget per head for the things theyre responsible for and yet, their problems have got worse not better under SNP rule.

AND yet, despite all that, the dissent, bitterness and resentment that that harridan sows means the SNP continue. A highly successful politician on that measure. A vile deceitful sow on all others.

You sound like a remainer. Just swap out SNP for Brexiters.

It is the same logic to them to leave the U.K. as it is for the U.K. to leave Europe.

How can you not see this.

You are superficially right but the circumstances are entirely different. Not least because the SNP assume they can join the EU and keep Sterling. and still be an independant state.

I'm not sure that this is what they think, but rather what they are selling to the electorate to get their wish of independence.