Charlie Hebdo
Comments
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Ballysmate wrote:arran77 wrote:johnfinch wrote:Deuteronomy 17:12 wrote:Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or of the priest who represents the LORD your God must be put to death. Such evil must be purged from Israel.Leviticus 20:13 wrote:"If a man lies with a male as with a women, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives."Leviticus 21:9 wrote:A priest's daughter who loses her honour by committing fornication and thereby dishonors her father also, shall be burned to death.
etc.
I don't know a huge amount about the various books and what they mean but I suspect that quoting isolated exerts slightly misinterprets it's meaning
It's a bit like when these extremist Muslims quote the works of the Prophet in isolation and say it justifies what they do.......no it doesn't.... when you read the quoted extract as a part of the whole work as it was intended you get an entirely different meaning
http://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/Lev ... hapter-20/
Not much ambiguity here Arran.
Did anyone see any mention of "water sports"!?
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I think a lot of this would be deemed wrong in modern society as our attitudes towards things like homosexuality have changed but you have to remember that when the Bible was written these were peoples beliefs no matter how unreasonable they now seem to us.
There will be parts of the Christian faith who still interpret these things literally like the nutjob Ugandan politicians as you put it but also as you say, these verses will be interpreted in a more rational way by the more mainstream elements of Christianity.
Surely if any Holy Book was actually the Word of God, then it would stand in perpetuity and would not evolve as Man's attitudes change?
Surely the word of an omnipotent God is not open for discussion or interpretation? 0 -
No. Water sports are fine.
Edit: Mentions lying with beasts. I assume this to include gerbils. Sorry Arran. 0 -
No one has the right to be offended nor do we live under Islamic law.“Give a man a fish and feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish and feed him for a lifetime. Teach a man to cycle and he will realize fishing is stupid and boring”
Desmond Tutu0 -
If anyone want to know just how ridiculous religious leaders can be, then this surely is it:-johnfinch wrote:I would love to be the person who made all that stuff up. If I could create a new religion there'd be a bloody death for just about anything. 8)
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/j ... ?CMP=fb_gu
In summary - Building a snowman is sinful. :shock:The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
I am not sure. You have no chance.Veronese68 wrote:PB is the most sensible person on here.0 -
Your religious belief must be a bit shaky if your omnipotent god can be undermined by a cartoon, n'est–ce pas?0
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VTech wrote:Slowmart wrote:
No one has the right to be offended nor do we live under Islamic law.
Of course they do, if you are islamic and reading the post you made it would offend you.
Sorry, I'm happy to disagree. What right in law do you have to be offended by a cartoon?
No law, other than Islamic law has been broken. When you live in a democracy free speech is a fundamental right but those rights bring responsibilities. Freedom to practice a religion is part of the freedom but why must we bend to an ideology that has no place in the world today? I'm not talking of the Muslim faith but specifically the Islamic extremist.
No drawing should lead to someones death, nor should it be a declaration of war. Those that take that view should go and live in their Islamic Caliphate and leave the rest of the world in peace. I think Muslims elsewhere have put it more succinctly.“Give a man a fish and feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish and feed him for a lifetime. Teach a man to cycle and he will realize fishing is stupid and boring”
Desmond Tutu0 -
Wouldn't a right to be offended be basic freedom of thought? There is if course a right to be offended. What there isn't is a right not to be offended (below a certain threshold, incitement and hatred laws).0
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It is not the causing of offence that religious leaders have a problem with, it is exercising freedom of thought.Ballysmate wrote:Your religious belief must be a bit shaky if your omnipotent god can be undermined by a cartoon, n'est–ce pas?
Nest-ce pas?The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
I am not sure. You have no chance.Veronese68 wrote:PB is the most sensible person on here.0 -
"Surely if any Holy Book was actually the Word of God, then it would stand in perpetuity and would not evolve as Man's attitudes change?
Surely the word of an omnipotent God is not open for discussion or interpretation?"
Trouble is it is the word of God interpreted and recorded by man. Man is highly suspect and infallible. He is also susceptible to things like cognitive bias and above all applying his own beliefs to other things. With that in mind I view all religious texts as a snapshot in time, an image of what is considered right at the time they were written. I also view the documents as further discredited by the sheer fact they are translations. IIRC the King James is an English translation of a Latin translation of a much older language and writing. Certainly for the Old Testament (5 books which I was always lead to believe were the same books that form the Jewish religious text - the Torah). I beleive there is a strong tradition within Judaism about the Torah being the word of their God and as such MUST be copied exactly. IIRC you have to learn to become a scribe to copy the Torah. It has to be correct right down to the number of words and characters on each line. Any mistake and it gets trashed. It is because of this tradition that they lay claim to it being the word of God (or whatever they call him).
All this leads me to the question, what would religion be if the "word of God" was heard by a woman??? If you are one of the many under the thumb of your wife or female partner you will be aware that they are always right!! 0 -
I recall that there is a Jewish coming of age where they read a page of the Torah each day and then have a massive blowout afterwards.
Apparently it deals with everything in life, from how to kill a pest rat through to more serious trials of life. The article I read says that it gives 'yes' 'no' and 'maybe' answers to each possible situation, muddled throughout.0 -
coriordan wrote:I recall that there is a Jewish coming of age where they read a page of the Torah each day and then have a massive blowout afterwards.
How come you don't see more fat Jews then "Arran, you are like the Tony Benn of smut. You have never diluted your depravity and always stand by your beliefs. You have my respect sir and your wife my pity"
seanoconn0 -
Slowmart wrote:VTech wrote:Slowmart wrote:
No one has the right to be offended nor do we live under Islamic law.
Of course they do, if you are islamic and reading the post you made it would offend you.
Sorry, I'm happy to disagree. What right in law do you have to be offended by a cartoon?
No law, other than Islamic law has been broken. When you live in a democracy free speech is a fundamental right but those rights bring responsibilities. Freedom to practice a religion is part of the freedom but why must we bend to an ideology that has no place in the world today? I'm not talking of the Muslim faith but specifically the Islamic extremist.
No drawing should lead to someones death, nor should it be a declaration of war. Those that take that view should go and live in their Islamic Caliphate and leave the rest of the world in peace. I think Muslims elsewhere have put it more succinctly.
I never mentioned a law of offence.
You suggest no other law other than islamic has been broken. I don't know wether or not this is the case but the fact that you dismiss this without thought doesn't make you out to be thoughtful of others.
Also, I never suggested that any drawing should lead to a persons death but likewise, I doubt you will find any normal muslim of a differing opinion. Muslims are not anti humour but they do have a belief and we should appreciate that belief just as we would anything else that we would feel harshly towards or offended by.
The fact that this has been nothing but an attempt to stick two fingers up at muslims means that to me, its stupid, offensive and shouldn't have been allowed.
This isn't about freedom of press or freedom of expression, its about freedom to mock others.
Shame on them.
Actually, having thought on what I have just written whilst drinking a coffee, although to me it seems wrong to mock others in this way, if they are happy with their actions then what they do is up to them.Living MY dream.0 -
VTech wrote:I never mentioned a law of offence.
You suggest no other law other than islamic has been broken. I don't know wether or not this is the case but the fact that you dismiss this without thought doesn't make you out to be thoughtful of others.
Also, I never suggested that any drawing should lead to a persons death but likewise, I doubt you will find any normal muslim of a differing opinion. Muslims are not anti humour but they do have a belief and we should appreciate that belief just as we would anything else that we would feel harshly towards or offended by.
The fact that this has been nothing but an attempt to stick two fingers up at muslims means that to me, its stupid, offensive and shouldn't have been allowed.
This isn't about freedom of press or freedom of expression, its about freedom to mock others.
Shame on them.
Muslims in the main have chosen to live in the west, they have to abide by our laws and culture, just as i would should i take a job in Saudi (a distinct possibility) Satire and ridicule is part of western life, it is they who need to show tolerance not us... we already allow them to practice their religion with no or little in the way of restriction, we show them a level of understanding & tolerance that no christian ex pat let alone local, would be allowed in the majority of muslim countries.
Why should one creed be above ridicule? and be allowed to react in such a violent way to it?
Dave Allen mocked the catholic church in the 1970s, did christians bomb the BBC, no they switched off and got on with their lives, or in my mums case (practising christian), pi$$ed herself laughing..
Many Muslims find offence in almost every aspect of western behavior, sex before marriage, homosexuality, drink, the food we eat, making snow men!!!
if we moderate our behavior in order NOT to cause offence, we would need to go far further than some cartoons - do you think they will stop at Satire?0 -
mamba80 wrote:they have to abide by our laws and culture, just as i would should i take a job in Saudi (a distinct possibility) Satire and ridicule is part of western life, it is they who need to show tolerance not us...
There was an interesting debate on the Channel 4 News a few days back. One of the speakers (who happens to be a colleague of mine) made an interesting point: satire historically has targeted the powerful for the benefit of the masses, while in this specific case I am not quite sure they are targeting who is in power and for the benefit of whom... I think they are missing the point of what satire is and the role it has in society.left the forum March 20230 -
Exactly right Mamba, it will not stop at satire, give an inch etc...mamba80 wrote:Many Muslims find offence in almost every aspect of western behavior, sex before marriage, homosexuality, drink, the food we eat, making snow men!!!
if we moderate our behavior in order NOT to cause offence, we would need to go far further than some cartoons - do you think they will stop at Satire?
In a sensible world muslims rules on drawing 'the prophet' should stay in the muslim world, if i visited saudi or pakistan, i wouldn't dream of drawing mohammed knowing what I know, whilst in the UK i'll draw what I want to draw tough luck to anyone who sees it and doesn't like it, easy enough to turn a page or look away. Certain aspects of Sharia law offend me, so I choose to ignore what goes on whilst still feeling sorry for the often innocent parties at the receiving end of it. Even worse certain aspects of the muslim marriage culture are abhorrent to me, again I have to ignore whilst young girls suffer, so no one can tell me that a simple drawing is offensive to the point that violence should be the expected.All lies and jest..still a man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest....0 -
Anyone's allowed to be offended, in the same way anyone's allowed to say what they want.
No-one is allowed to murder people.
It's fairly simple.0 -
Today's paper was on ebay today and two copies went for 100k. Got to be some error though as no one would pay that much for it.
They have a regular print run of 60k, which was going to be upped to 1m. It was finally upped to 3m and sold out within an hour with people queuing 100 deep since 5.30am to get one.
They have said they will print another couple million.Contador is the Greatest0 -
frenchfighter wrote:Today's paper was on ebay today and two copies went for 100k. Got to be some error though as no one would pay that much for it.
They have a regular print run of 60k, which was going to be upped to 1m. It was finally upped to 3m and sold out within an hour with people queuing 100 deep since 5.30am to get one.
They have said they will print another couple million.
Vtech probably....My pen won't write on the screen0 -
Rick Chasey wrote:Anyone's allowed to be offended, in the same way anyone's allowed to say what they want.
No-one is allowed to murder people.
It's fairly simple.
If only, both Sky and BBc wouldn't show cover this morning for fear of offending, ergo not allowed to say what they want (unless they didn't want to of course)
In fact I wanted to see it on breakfast news and was offended when I couldn'tAll lies and jest..still a man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest....0 -
secretsqizz wrote:frenchfighter wrote:Today's paper was on ebay today and two copies went for 100k. Got to be some error though as no one would pay that much for it.
They have a regular print run of 60k, which was going to be upped to 1m. It was finally upped to 3m and sold out within an hour with people queuing 100 deep since 5.30am to get one.
They have said they will print another couple million.
Vtech probably....
Not me sorry, with that sort of money I would probably re-tile the swimming pool.Living MY dream.0 -
bianchimoon wrote:Rick Chasey wrote:Anyone's allowed to be offended, in the same way anyone's allowed to say what they want.
No-one is allowed to murder people.
It's fairly simple.
If only, both Sky and BBc wouldn't show cover this morning for fear of offending, ergo not allowed to say what they want (unless they didn't want to of course)
In fact I wanted to see it on breakfast news and was offended when I couldn't
the freedom of speech which we are all soooo proud off, is being curtailed through fear, nothing more honourable and certainly not because news/entertainment media dont wish to offend, they are not so polite when it comes to other subjects or religions.
France is now arresting and convicting those who are defending terrorism, under a new law introduced recently.0 -
It raises an interesting question "if the news BBC had shown the image, and a certain group had been offended enough to go in a wipe out the Breakfast news team, would the BBC have been liable, knowing what they now know?mamba80 wrote:bianchimoon wrote:Rick Chasey wrote:Anyone's allowed to be offended, in the same way anyone's allowed to say what they want.
No-one is allowed to murder people.
It's fairly simple.
If only, both Sky and BBc wouldn't show cover this morning for fear of offending, ergo not allowed to say what they want (unless they didn't want to of course)
In fact I wanted to see it on breakfast news and was offended when I couldn't
the freedom of speech which we are all soooo proud off, is being curtailed through fear, nothing more honourable and certainly not because news/entertainment media dont wish to offend, they are not so polite when it comes to other subjects or religions.
France is now arresting and convicting those who are defending terrorism, under a new law introduced recently.
Where would they stand legally, will the default option subliminally be to play safe for fear of reprisal?All lies and jest..still a man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest....0 -
“It’s incomprehensible that you turn against freedom like that, but if you don’t like this freedom, for heaven’s sake, get your suitcase, and leave. There might be a place where you belong, and be honest with yourself about that, don’t kill innocent journalists. This is so backwards, so incomprehensible, go away if you can’t find your place in the Netherlands, or accept the society we want to build here, because we only want people, including all those Muslims, and all those well-intentioned Muslims, who may be looked at with suspicion, we want to keep all those people together in what I call the 'We Society'. And if you don’t like it here because you don’t like the humorists who make a little newspaper – if I may dare say so – just f*** off"
Cannot disagree with that.
Ahmed Aboutaleb.
53 year old muslim immigrant to Holland.
Rotterdam Mayor.The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
I am not sure. You have no chance.Veronese68 wrote:PB is the most sensible person on here.0 -
VTech wrote:
I never mentioned a law of offence.
You suggest no other law other than islamic has been broken. I don't know wether or not this is the case but the fact that you dismiss this without thought doesn't make you out to be thoughtful of others.
Also, I never suggested that any drawing should lead to a persons death but likewise, I doubt you will find any normal muslim of a differing opinion. Muslims are not anti humour but they do have a belief and we should appreciate that belief just as we would anything else that we would feel harshly towards or offended by.
The fact that this has been nothing but an attempt to stick two fingers up at muslims means that to me, its stupid, offensive and shouldn't have been allowed.
This isn't about freedom of press or freedom of expression, its about freedom to mock others.
Shame on them.
Actually, having thought on what I have just written whilst drinking a coffee, although to me it seems wrong to mock others in this way, if they are happy with their actions then what they do is up to them.[/quote]
It's not mocking, it's satire. Look it up in the dictionary. Jews, Catholics and the French right had all been the target of this brand of satire. Le Pen, the former leader of the French far right stated the victims of the magazine shooting were enemies of the party
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340 ... 91,00.html
When you become part of the society you reside in you need to accept the cultural differences. The sight of a liberal amount of female flesh on show is offensive to Muslim sensibilities, why then not call for women to dress in hijabs?
Where's the line?“Give a man a fish and feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish and feed him for a lifetime. Teach a man to cycle and he will realize fishing is stupid and boring”
Desmond Tutu0 -
mamba80 wrote:VTech wrote:I never mentioned a law of offence.
You suggest no other law other than islamic has been broken. I don't know wether or not this is the case but the fact that you dismiss this without thought doesn't make you out to be thoughtful of others.
Also, I never suggested that any drawing should lead to a persons death but likewise, I doubt you will find any normal muslim of a differing opinion. Muslims are not anti humour but they do have a belief and we should appreciate that belief just as we would anything else that we would feel harshly towards or offended by.
The fact that this has been nothing but an attempt to stick two fingers up at muslims means that to me, its stupid, offensive and shouldn't have been allowed.
This isn't about freedom of press or freedom of expression, its about freedom to mock others.
Shame on them.
Muslims in the main have chosen to live in the west, they have to abide by our laws and culture, just as i would should i take a job in Saudi (a distinct possibility) Satire and ridicule is part of western life, it is they who need to show tolerance not us... we already allow them to practice their religion with no or little in the way of restriction, we show them a level of understanding & tolerance that no christian ex pat let alone local, would be allowed in the majority of muslim countries.
Why should one creed be above ridicule? and be allowed to react in such a violent way to it?
Dave Allen mocked the catholic church in the 1970s, did christians bomb the BBC, no they switched off and got on with their lives, or in my mums case (practising christian), pi$$ed herself laughing..
Many Muslims find offence in almost every aspect of western behavior, sex before marriage, homosexuality, drink, the food we eat, making snow men!!!
if we moderate our behavior in order NOT to cause offence, we would need to go far further than some cartoons - do you think they will stop at Satire?
I remember watching Dave Allen in the 70s
A man ahead of his times.0 -
Tangled Metal wrote:"Surely if any Holy Book was actually the Word of God, then it would stand in perpetuity and would not evolve as Man's attitudes change?
Surely the word of an omnipotent God is not open for discussion or interpretation?"
Trouble is it is the word of God interpreted and recorded by man. Man is highly suspect and infallible. He is also susceptible to things like cognitive bias and above all applying his own beliefs to other things. With that in mind I view all religious texts as a snapshot in time, an image of what is considered right at the time they were written. I also view the documents as further discredited by the sheer fact they are translations. IIRC the King James is an English translation of a Latin translation of a much older language and writing. Certainly for the Old Testament (5 books which I was always lead to believe were the same books that form the Jewish religious text - the Torah). I beleive there is a strong tradition within Judaism about the Torah being the word of their God and as such MUST be copied exactly. IIRC you have to learn to become a scribe to copy the Torah. It has to be correct right down to the number of words and characters on each line. Any mistake and it gets trashed. It is because of this tradition that they lay claim to it being the word of God (or whatever they call him).
All this leads me to the question, what would religion be if the "word of God" was heard by a woman??? If you are one of the many under the thumb of your wife or female partner you will be aware that they are always right!!
So we seem to be in agreement that Holy Boks are a crock of shite.0 -
I would say that he was very much a man of his times.Ballysmate wrote:I remember watching Dave Allen in the 70s
A man ahead of his times.
It is just that things have not moved on as much in that regard as we would like to think.The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
I am not sure. You have no chance.Veronese68 wrote:PB is the most sensible person on here.0
