2014 Worlds - Elite Men RR *SPOILERS*

markwb79

If they werent chasing someone then Gerrans was ok in what he was doing.

But...

They was chasing, if they all had all taken a pull then they might have caught him.

but then Gerrans could have lost the first looser medal.

deejay

frenchfighter wrote:

jimmythecuckoo wrote:

Love that kit. Best ever.
Wish I could convince my club to adopt a similar version.

That Jersey has been in use for several years.

If you go to a Belgian Flanders Race you will find the marshals and stewards all wearing their personal coats of the same design out on the roads in all weathers. (without adverts that is)
See the coats less frequently in Wallonia is my experience

RichN95.

deejay wrote:

That Jersey has been in use for several years.

If you go to a Belgian Flanders Race you will find the marshals and stewards all wearing their personal coats of the same design out on the roads in all weathers. (without adverts that is)
See the coats less frequently in Wallonia is my experience

OK, you might know this - why is the jersey blue?
I heard a theory (unsubstantiated) that it dates back to when the Tour introduced national teams and Alycon got the Belgian team who mostly rode for Alcyon, to adopt their colour. But I think the theorist was just guessing.

tailwindhome

^That theory was posted a couple of pages back. Link to a nice website too

pinno

Wheel-sucking is after all, a gamble. If that's all you can do at the end of a race because the tank is empty, then you hope to have just enough energy to contest a sprint should you recover.
If a small chasing group contains a persistent wheel-sucker and then sit up, the w-s is stuffed as the only choice is for him/her to chase and thereby leaving them open to pull a w-s along with them.
Imagine at the end of a flat stage of the TdF or other GT, the hammer is down and the sprint boys have their trains out front, there is plenty of w-s'ing going on in a bid to survive - that's hardly dishonourable.
I recall F Bellerini at the end of Roubaix. He said that he saw that Duclos Lasalle was struggling to stay on his wheel and GDL even said afterwards that it was hard to keep up with FB. When FB saw that GDL was in difficulty, he should have tried his best to drop him instead of towing a very experienced and strong rider to the finish with him.
Wheel-sucking is part of the game but habitual wheel-suckers get found out in the long run.

RichN95.

pinarello001 wrote:

Wheel-sucking is after all, a gamble. If that's all you can do at the end of a race because the tank is empty, then you hope to have just enough energy to contest a sprint should you recover.
If a small chasing group contains a persistent wheel-sucker and then sit up, the w-s is stuffed as the only choice is for him/her to chase and thereby leaving them open to pull a w-s along with them.
Imagine at the end of a flat stage of the TdF or other GT, the hammer is down and the sprint boys have their trains out front, there is plenty of w-s'ing going on in a bid to survive - that's hardly dishonourable.
I recall F Bellerini at the end of Roubaix. He said that he saw that Duclos Lasalle was struggling to stay on his wheel and GDL even said afterwards that it was hard to keep up with FB. When FB saw that GDL was in difficulty, he should have tried his best to drop him instead of towing a very experienced and strong rider to the finish with him.
Wheel-sucking is part of the game but habitual wheel-suckers get found out in the long run.

Yep. People often like to say that cycling is 'poker on wheels' or 'chess on wheels'. And then they get upset when it's not played like snakes and ladders

rick_chasey

Don't think Gerrans is moaning about the tactics.

He's disappointed he didn't win. Which is fair, given he was 2nd.

More interestingly, who do other riders continue to let him free ride?

RichN95.

Rick Chasey wrote:

More interestingly, who do other riders continue to let him free ride?

Some sort of Doctor Who mind meld, I think

oldwelshman

RichN95 wrote:

oldwelshman wrote:

Did Froome and Millar even ride? What was Rob Hales on about when he said they packed as they had done their "work" for the team earlier. I saw the Poles then the Aussies on the front but not Froome. He could not have lost enough fitness to get dropped on that course (Valverde? )and apparently it was not hard enough for him? So HTF could he not keep up to help Swifty? Kennaaugh rode well to force a chase but was cooked and Luke rode well, Forget the rest they may have well put Cav in a he would not have got dropped n that Race.

Just because someone isn't visible on TV and you didn't see them, it doesn't mean they weren't working. GB did Ok. They did what they set out to do - got a dangerous man in the late break and ensured Swift was in the group with other sprinters. They just haven't got a top notch puncheur type.
GB have only got two riders who have ever won a decent one day race and they were both injured. Froome is unlikely to be anything more than an early race domestique in one day races. He doesn't have the acceleration to be of use late on. There's a reason he's only done three one day races in four years for Sky.

So why was Froome selected? Are you really saying he is not strong enough to do what Luke Steve and G did? Not capable to last the distance?

RichN95.

oldwelshman wrote:

So why was Froome selected? Are you really saying he is not strong enough to do what Luke Steve and G did? Not capable to last the distance?

He's there to do a bog standard domestiques job. Just as he did in 2011 and the 2012 Olympics. You need to stop viewing him in a WC context as a star. He's there because GB are short on options and he's willing to help teammates out.

GB had nine riders. And then there were two TT riders who focused on that. Two riders who were injured. So what are they left with? Fenn, Blythe, Edmondson? If he's willing, you'll pick Froome he'll do a specific job very well if needed.

pinno

Did that course really suit Froome? I think not. Besides which, I don't think that even Sir Brad could deny the fact that Froome can be a team player.
Gilbert even acted as domestique in an event that he could of had a go at winning. In fact, despite the riders in the Belgian team, they stuck together and were unlucky to not get the winner.

philbar72

That finish must have been so difficult for Gilbert, knowing that Gerrans, and valverde have a more effective finish than his counterpart Van Avaermet.

ddraver

RichN95 wrote:

deejay wrote:

That Jersey has been in use for several years.

If you go to a Belgian Flanders Race you will find the marshals and stewards all wearing their personal coats of the same design out on the roads in all weathers. (without adverts that is)
See the coats less frequently in Wallonia is my experience

OK, you might know this - why is the jersey blue?
I heard a theory (unsubstantiated) that it dates back to when the Tour introduced national teams and Alycon got the Belgian team who mostly rode for Alcyon, to adopt their colour. But I think the theorist was just guessing.

Also heard that it was the colour of the Belgian Royal Family (though what exactly they ruled over I don't know). i.e. it's the equivalent of the Dutch Orange

DeVlaeminck

Millar was always a bad selection, heart over head.

Imo Froome doesn't like the cut and thrust of a big one day race on wet roads, he was talking about being there for Swift but maybe also being able to do something himself if it panned out that way, in the end he did neither.
I've seen little evidence he is a great team player, sure he rode for Wiggins when his contract depended on it but that's it. He's a Grand Tour GC man but I wouldn't pick him in a support role any more than I would Contador. It was a poor showing by GB men and Cav's win aside that is par for the course.

andyp

How quickly people forget the Team GB performance in the 2011 Worlds and the 2012 Olympics.

frenchfighter

The Olympics is not the Worlds and they majorly messed up there so not a good example. In 2011 Worlds, it was a pan-flat course and they rode like nutters to bring it for a sprint - oh well. One example of good teamwork does not mean you can discount every other performance.

eh

I agree with FFs comment above.

I'm still struggling to work out what GBs game plan even was, apart from getting a good post race party sorted in Madrid. Froome should have been there at the end to support Swift IMO, as he should have the power to sit on the front and hold it together, or chase if necessary. The cupboard is looking rather bare for GB in future years with both Millar and Wiggins now gone and Froome about as interested as a dead hamster. We'll soon be back to the days of being paid to ride for others. :oops:

RichN95.

frenchfighter wrote:

The Olympics is not the Worlds and they majorly messed up there so not a good example. In 2011 Worlds, it was a pan-flat course and they rode like nutters to bring it for a sprint - oh well. One example of good teamwork does not mean you can discount every other performance.

You can have all the teamwork you like, but if you don't have a single rider available that's ever won a one day race then you're pushing water uphill from the start.

ddraver

DeVlaeminck wrote:

Millar was always a bad selection, heart over head.

Imo Froome doesn't like the cut and thrust of a big one day race on wet roads, he was talking about being there for Swift but maybe also being able to do something himself if it panned out that way, in the end he did neither.
I've seen little evidence he is a great team player, sure he rode for Wiggins when his contract depended on it but that's it. He's a Grand Tour GC man but I wouldn't pick him in a support role any more than I would Contador. It was a poor showing by GB men and Cav's win aside that is par for the course.

Froome says as much in his book. He's no good at one day races because he doesnt have the accelerations, or the abilities on short sharp hill necessary to be good at them. He needs a long mountain climb to excel. So until they do a worlds course at Alpe d'huez he will always be there as a support player. He does it because it's a way of paying back favours to Sky riders and because it's an honour to ride for his country.

The spanish coach was desperate to get Bertie in to ride support and Frenchie messes himself when he does.

RichN95.

For all the talk of GBs failures it's worth remembering that Italy haven't been on the podium since 2008, France not since 2005 and the Netherlands since 1997. And these are countries with over three times as many WT riders as GB.

I think some people are becoming spolit by GB's sucess and are expecting too much.

frenchfighter

RichN95 wrote:

frenchfighter wrote:

The Olympics is not the Worlds and they majorly messed up there so not a good example. In 2011 Worlds, it was a pan-flat course and they rode like nutters to bring it for a sprint - oh well. One example of good teamwork does not mean you can discount every other performance.

You can have all the teamwork you like, but if you don't have a single rider available that's ever won a one day race then you're pushing water uphill from the start.

They have lots of options. Cavendish in a sprint, Froome on a mountain, Swift and Geraint on a rolling course.

btw. note that I have not said anything regarding Froome in the conversations above. I guess it would have been good if he finished but it is not a big deal at all to me if he didn't.

DeVlaeminck

andyp wrote:

How quickly people forget the Team GB performance in the 2011 Worlds and the 2012 Olympics.

2012 Oympics? Armitstead?

ugo.santalucia

frenchfighter wrote:

They have lots of options. Cavendish in a sprint, Froome on a mountain, Swift and Geraint on a rolling course.

They have one option only... Cavendish if it's a sprint finish. Swift and Geraint are good domestiques, but they're not world class and Froome is not a puncheur... if he was, then he would stand a chance of winning the Fleche Wallone, but he won't, as there are plenty of riders better than him at doing that.
Given the Worlds is a circuit, there will never be a Mont Ventoux top finish, so it's unlikely Froome will ever wear the rainbow jersey... he's a classy climber and a solid time triallist, perfect for the TdF, but ultimately, unlike Nibali, Rodriguez, Valverde and Contador, he's a one trick pony

andyp

DeVlaeminck wrote:

andyp wrote:

How quickly people forget the Team GB performance in the 2011 Worlds and the 2012 Olympics.

2012 Oympics? Armitstead?

The men's race, where a 5 man team of Wiggins, Millar, Froome, Stannard and Cavendish attempted to control the race and rode hard on the front of the race for most of the day. They almost succeeded too.

Froome was an integral part of that, and the 2011 Worlds, but of course lazy opinion forgets that and says he isn't a team player.

DeVlaeminck

andyp wrote:

DeVlaeminck wrote:

andyp wrote:

How quickly people forget the Team GB performance in the 2011 Worlds and the 2012 Olympics.

2012 Oympics? Armitstead?

The men's race, where a 5 man team of Wiggins, Millar, Froome, Stannard and Cavendish attempted to control the race and rode hard on the front of the race for most of the day. They almost succeeded too.

Froome was an integral part of that, and the 2011 Worlds, but of course lazy opinion forgets that and says he isn't a team player.

OK a few more lazy opinions (not mine) from the 2012 Olympic spoiler thread,
"Get the feeling Froome decided to sod off because he wants to beat Brad in the TT"
"Froome looked (relatively) weak"
"Did Froome do anything except sit on Cav's wheel before being first to be dropped"
"No he was shoot"
"I definitely think Wiggo toasted himself more than Froome"

So the general opinion was Froome put up a rather nondescript show at best while Wiggins risked his TT chances by putting everything in. The tactics got a fair bit of stick too.

above_the_cows

ddraver wrote:

RichN95 wrote:

deejay wrote:

That Jersey has been in use for several years.

If you go to a Belgian Flanders Race you will find the marshals and stewards all wearing their personal coats of the same design out on the roads in all weathers. (without adverts that is)
See the coats less frequently in Wallonia is my experience

OK, you might know this - why is the jersey blue?
I heard a theory (unsubstantiated) that it dates back to when the Tour introduced national teams and Alycon got the Belgian team who mostly rode for Alcyon, to adopt their colour. But I think the theorist was just guessing.

Also heard that it was the colour of the Belgian Royal Family (though what exactly they ruled over I don't know). i.e. it's the equivalent of the Dutch Orange

That's what I thought it symbolised too. The Belgian Royal Family still rule over Belgium and have done since Leopold in 1830 and they are also a members of the Saxe-Coburg and Gotha household. God I'm dull.

ugo.santalucia wrote:

frenchfighter wrote:

They have lots of options. Cavendish in a sprint, Froome on a mountain, Swift and Geraint on a rolling course.

They have one option only... Cavendish if it's a sprint finish. Swift and Geraint are good domestiques, but they're not world class and Froome is not a puncheur... if he was, then he would stand a chance of winning the Fleche Wallone, but he won't, as there are plenty of riders better than him at doing that.
Given the Worlds is a circuit, there will never be a Mont Ventoux top finish, so it's unlikely Froome will ever wear the rainbow jersey... he's a classy climber and a solid time triallist, perfect for the TdF, but ultimately, unlike Nibali, Rodriguez, Valverde and Contador, he's a one trick pony

Technically TT'ing and climbing is two tricks. And they're pretty good tricks to have if you want to be a GC winner. I'm wondering what all these other tricks are that say Valverde, J-Rod and Contador have apart from Valverde and J-Rod's sprint abilities vis-a-vis other GC riders?

RichN95.

DeVlaeminck wrote:

OK a few more lazy opinions (not mine) from the 2012 Olympic spoiler thread,
"Get the feeling Froome decided to sod off because he wants to beat Brad in the TT"
"Froome looked (relatively) weak"
"Did Froome do anything except sit on Cav's wheel before being first to be dropped"
"No he was shoot"
"I definitely think Wiggo toasted himself more than Froome"

So the general opinion was Froome put up a rather nondescript show at best while Wiggins risked his TT chances by putting everything in. The tactics got a fair bit of stick too.

And from the Cycling News live updates:

11:51:23 BST As the main peloton hits Box Hill, the British team are again on the front en masse, with Chris Froome and David Millar dictating the tempo.

11:55:02 BST 5:27 was the gap between the break and the Froome-led peloton at the top of the first climb of Box Hill.

12:12:07 BST Tony Martin (Germany) is now leading the peloton, with Froome, Millar, Wiggins, Stannard and Cavendish lined up on his wheel.

12:16:38 BST Chris Froome has upped the pace slightly on the climb but he is also attempting to maintain a steady tempo, mindful that sharp changes in rhythm would only draw the sting out of Mark Cavendish's legs.

13:04:56 BST There are no British riders in the Nibali group, as expected. Instead, Wiggins, Millar, Stannard and Froome maintained a steadier tempo on the climb and are now attempting to drag Cavendish and the peloton back up to the counter-attack on the flatter sections of the circuit.

15:17:23 BST Chris Froome sits up and swings off from the main peloton.

That's just the mentions of him by name rather than 'the British team' (of which there are many). They span nearly three and a half hours.

frenchfighter

andyp wrote:

DeVlaeminck wrote:

andyp wrote:

How quickly people forget the Team GB performance in the 2011 Worlds and the 2012 Olympics.

2012 Oympics? Armitstead?

The men's race, where a 5 man team of Wiggins, Millar, Froome, Stannard and Cavendish attempted to control the race and rode hard on the front of the race for most of the day. They almost succeeded too.

Froome was an integral part of that, and the 2011 Worlds, but of course lazy opinion forgets that and says he isn't a team player.

'do no work' Gerrans is greatly admired by you but on the other hand you are now blowing the trumpet of a team that did a huge amount of work to ultimately fail badly?

Those two things obviously do not match.

Unless you are totally Brit-blinkered?

wallace_and_gromit

andyp wrote:

DeVlaeminck wrote:

andyp wrote:

How quickly people forget the Team GB performance in the 2011 Worlds and the 2012 Olympics.

2012 Oympics? Armitstead?

The men's race, where a 5 man team of Wiggins, Millar, Froome, Stannard and Cavendish attempted to control the race and rode hard on the front of the race for most of the day. They almost succeeded too.

No comment on Froome's contribution, but wasn't the GB effort that day akin to some excitable newbies in a Cat 3/4 road race who ride at the front until the last lap whilst the big hitters ride tempo and plan their winning moves?

The World RR the previous year was a different kettle of fish as they had 4 more riders and no hills up which Cav had to be nursed, so could start the leadout train with about 180k to go!

ddraver

frenchfighter wrote:

andyp wrote:

DeVlaeminck wrote:

andyp wrote:

How quickly people forget the Team GB performance in the 2011 Worlds and the 2012 Olympics.

2012 Oympics? Armitstead?

The men's race, where a 5 man team of Wiggins, Millar, Froome, Stannard and Cavendish attempted to control the race and rode hard on the front of the race for most of the day. They almost succeeded too.

Froome was an integral part of that, and the 2011 Worlds, but of course lazy opinion forgets that and says he isn't a team player.

'do no work' Gerrans is greatly admired by you but on the other hand you are now blowing the trumpet of a team that did a huge amount of work to ultimately fail badly?

Those two things obviously do not match.

Unless you are totally Brit-blinkered?

Frenchie pointing out people with inconsistent arguments?