The Irony Thread

Stevo_666

Pross said:

Record numbers of illegal immigrants crossing the Channel now we've left the EU despite lack of border controls being one of the Brexiteer's cases for leaving.

We're still in effectively until the end of the year...transition period still going. Maybe migrants are making last ditch efforts before we can return them to France?

john80

Stevo_666 said:

Pross said:

Record numbers of illegal immigrants crossing the Channel now we've left the EU despite lack of border controls being one of the Brexiteer's cases for leaving.

We're still in effectively until the end of the year...transition period still going. Maybe migrants are making last ditch efforts before we can return them to France?

Unfortunately the only way you can return them to france is by turning them round in french waters. French dont really want this so happy to see them enter uk waters. Nor do the french want uk border patrols in their waters doing this. UK then has to deport to original country. Only nature will make a fifference here.

TheBigBean

john80 said:

Stevo_666 said:

Pross said:

Record numbers of illegal immigrants crossing the Channel now we've left the EU despite lack of border controls being one of the Brexiteer's cases for leaving.

We're still in effectively until the end of the year...transition period still going. Maybe migrants are making last ditch efforts before we can return them to France?

Unfortunately the only way you can return them to france is by turning them round in french waters. French dont really want this so happy to see them enter uk waters. Nor do the french want uk border patrols in their waters doing this. UK then has to deport to original country. Only nature will make a fifference here.

The UK can't deport them to a number of countries.

john80

TheBigBean said:

john80 said:

Stevo_666 said:

Pross said:

Record numbers of illegal immigrants crossing the Channel now we've left the EU despite lack of border controls being one of the Brexiteer's cases for leaving.

We're still in effectively until the end of the year...transition period still going. Maybe migrants are making last ditch efforts before we can return them to France?

Unfortunately the only way you can return them to france is by turning them round in french waters. French dont really want this so happy to see them enter uk waters. Nor do the french want uk border patrols in their waters doing this. UK then has to deport to original country. Only nature will make a fifference here.

The UK can't deport them to a number of countries.

Thanks for pointing out the obvious for those with a legitimate claim for asylum. A lot of people would happily support a law that if you pass through a safe country without claiming asylum then you cant ever be considered for asylum in a later country. Vast majority are economic migrants by the time they get to France.

rick_chasey

https://twitter.com/jb_barrington/status/1292152477618511873?s=21

TheBigBean

john80 said:

TheBigBean said:

john80 said:

Stevo_666 said:

Pross said:

Record numbers of illegal immigrants crossing the Channel now we've left the EU despite lack of border controls being one of the Brexiteer's cases for leaving.

We're still in effectively until the end of the year...transition period still going. Maybe migrants are making last ditch efforts before we can return them to France?

Unfortunately the only way you can return them to france is by turning them round in french waters. French dont really want this so happy to see them enter uk waters. Nor do the french want uk border patrols in their waters doing this. UK then has to deport to original country. Only nature will make a fifference here.

The UK can't deport them to a number of countries.

Thanks for pointing out the obvious for those with a legitimate claim for asylum. A lot of people would happily support a law that if you pass through a safe country without claiming asylum then you cant ever be considered for asylum in a later country. Vast majority are economic migrants by the time they get to France.

You misunderstand, the UK can't deport failed asylum seekers to some countries because they do not accept them. Therefore, there is nothing the UK can do with people of some nationalities once they are in the UK. This isn't obvious.

surrey_commuter

TheBigBean said:

john80 said:

TheBigBean said:

john80 said:

Stevo_666 said:

Pross said:

Record numbers of illegal immigrants crossing the Channel now we've left the EU despite lack of border controls being one of the Brexiteer's cases for leaving.

We're still in effectively until the end of the year...transition period still going. Maybe migrants are making last ditch efforts before we can return them to France?

Unfortunately the only way you can return them to france is by turning them round in french waters. French dont really want this so happy to see them enter uk waters. Nor do the french want uk border patrols in their waters doing this. UK then has to deport to original country. Only nature will make a fifference here.

The UK can't deport them to a number of countries.

Thanks for pointing out the obvious for those with a legitimate claim for asylum. A lot of people would happily support a law that if you pass through a safe country without claiming asylum then you cant ever be considered for asylum in a later country. Vast majority are economic migrants by the time they get to France.

You misunderstand, the UK can't deport failed asylum seekers to some countries because they do not accept them. Therefore, there is nothing the UK can do with people of some nationalities once they are in the UK. This isn't obvious.

It is not always obvious which countries these people come from and they may claim to be from a country they know we can’t deport them to.

orraloon

Hey it's ok, we've Taken Back Control of our borders from those pesky Europeans. Now we are a standalone sovereign nation and we do things our way by ourselves. Problem solved.

surrey_commuter

orraloon said:

Hey it's ok, we've Taken Back Control of our borders from those pesky Europeans. Now we are a standalone sovereign nation and we do things our way by ourselves. Problem solved.

Does that mean we no longer have an arrangement with the French to take them back?

Stevo_666

surrey_commuter said:

orraloon said:

Hey it's ok, we've Taken Back Control of our borders from those pesky Europeans. Now we are a standalone sovereign nation and we do things our way by ourselves. Problem solved.

Does that mean we no longer have an arrangement with the French to take them back?

I didn't know we had one in the first place?

briantrumpet

Stevo_666 said:

surrey_commuter said:

orraloon said:

Hey it's ok, we've Taken Back Control of our borders from those pesky Europeans. Now we are a standalone sovereign nation and we do things our way by ourselves. Problem solved.

Does that mean we no longer have an arrangement with the French to take them back?

I didn't know we had one in the first place?

Stevo_666

briantrumpet said:

Stevo_666 said:

surrey_commuter said:

orraloon said:

Hey it's ok, we've Taken Back Control of our borders from those pesky Europeans. Now we are a standalone sovereign nation and we do things our way by ourselves. Problem solved.

Does that mean we no longer have an arrangement with the French to take them back?

I didn't know we had one in the first place?

What coperation did this involve this exactly? The random tweet is not very illuminating.

That said, we seem to have had a problem before now. Wonder how well this arrangement worked in reality, given that the French were probably quite happy to let them leave France for the UK

Stevo_666

At first glance it appears that your source is talking Eurobollox Brian. According to this link:
https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/insights/migrants-crossing-the-english-channel/

it is a series of bilateral agreements between UK and France.

Quote: "UK-French cooperation in this area has been formalised through a series of bilateral agreements, including the Sangatte Protocol in 1991 and the Treaty of Le Touquet in 2003. The latter allowed for France and the UK to carry out immigration controls in each other’s territories at sea ports.

In 2018 the UK and France agreed the Sandhurst Treaty, in which the UK committed to spend €50 million to ‘improve security’ and ‘reduce illegal migration flows’ towards northern French ports, amongst other measures."

surrey_commuter

Stevo_666 said:

At first glance it appears that your source is talking Eurobollox Brian. According to this link:
https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/insights/migrants-crossing-the-english-channel/

it is a series of bilateral agreements between UK and France.

Quote: "UK-French cooperation in this area has been formalised through a series of bilateral agreements, including the Sangatte Protocol in 1991 and the Treaty of Le Touquet in 2003. The latter allowed for France and the UK to carry out immigration controls in each other’s territories at sea ports.

In 2018 the UK and France agreed the Sandhurst Treaty, in which the UK committed to spend €50 million to ‘improve security’ and ‘reduce illegal migration flows’ towards northern French ports, amongst other measures."

Intl law says you have to accept an asylum claim from anybody who turns up, the Dublin Regulation says they have to be accepted by the first EU country they reach.

Will our brain dead Home Sec accept the need for international co-operation or will she find somebody to push (?) them out of our territorial waters. On the plus side Dec 31st is a good time to find out

TheBigBean

surrey_commuter said:

Stevo_666 said:

At first glance it appears that your source is talking Eurobollox Brian. According to this link:
https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/insights/migrants-crossing-the-english-channel/

it is a series of bilateral agreements between UK and France.

Quote: "UK-French cooperation in this area has been formalised through a series of bilateral agreements, including the Sangatte Protocol in 1991 and the Treaty of Le Touquet in 2003. The latter allowed for France and the UK to carry out immigration controls in each other’s territories at sea ports.

In 2018 the UK and France agreed the Sandhurst Treaty, in which the UK committed to spend €50 million to ‘improve security’ and ‘reduce illegal migration flows’ towards northern French ports, amongst other measures."

Intl law says you have to accept an asylum claim from anybody who turns up, the Dublin Regulation says they have to be accepted by the first EU country they reach.

Will our brain dead Home Sec accept the need for international co-operation or will she find somebody to push (?) them out of our territorial waters. On the plus side Dec 31st is a good time to find out

The uncomfortable truth though is that there isn't an easy solution. The Australian approach has been effective, but highly questionable.

orraloon

TheBigBean said:

surrey_commuter said:

Stevo_666 said:

At first glance it appears that your source is talking Eurobollox Brian. According to this link:
https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/insights/migrants-crossing-the-english-channel/

it is a series of bilateral agreements between UK and France.

Quote: "UK-French cooperation in this area has been formalised through a series of bilateral agreements, including the Sangatte Protocol in 1991 and the Treaty of Le Touquet in 2003. The latter allowed for France and the UK to carry out immigration controls in each other’s territories at sea ports.

In 2018 the UK and France agreed the Sandhurst Treaty, in which the UK committed to spend €50 million to ‘improve security’ and ‘reduce illegal migration flows’ towards northern French ports, amongst other measures."

Intl law says you have to accept an asylum claim from anybody who turns up, the Dublin Regulation says they have to be accepted by the first EU country they reach.

Will our brain dead Home Sec accept the need for international co-operation or will she find somebody to push (?) them out of our territorial waters. On the plus side Dec 31st is a good time to find out

The uncomfortable truth though is that there isn't an easy solution. The Australian approach has been effective, but highly questionable.

There's an idea. Australia parks migrants on remote offshore island. So UK could park them on e.g. Jersey. Can't see any problem with that. What's Priti Vacant's email, I'll advisor her.

pblakeney

Is the irony based on asking the French to keep the people that we don't want?

coopster_the_1st

pblakeney said:

Is the irony based on asking the French to keep the people that we don't want?

I think the irony is that despite the lies Remoaners told us, desperate people still see the UK as a better option than the rest of the EU

kingstongraham

coopster_the_1st said:

pblakeney said:

Is the irony based on asking the French to keep the people that we don't want?

I think the irony is that despite the lies Remoaners told us, desperate people still see the UK as a better option than the rest of the EU

Is it irony that it's you of all people using the phrase "the rest of the EU"?

pinno

coopster_the_1st said:

pblakeney said:

Is the irony based on asking the French to keep the people that we don't want?

I think the irony is that despite the lies Remoaners told us, desperate people still see the UK as a better option than the rest of the EU

No it's more irony that it looks like we will have less control on migrants because we left the EU and one of the principal reasons we left the EU...

Hang on, why am I bothering?

pinno

And what do the French and the rest of the EU owe us?!

surrey_commuter

TheBigBean said:

surrey_commuter said:

Stevo_666 said:

At first glance it appears that your source is talking Eurobollox Brian. According to this link:
https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/insights/migrants-crossing-the-english-channel/

it is a series of bilateral agreements between UK and France.

Quote: "UK-French cooperation in this area has been formalised through a series of bilateral agreements, including the Sangatte Protocol in 1991 and the Treaty of Le Touquet in 2003. The latter allowed for France and the UK to carry out immigration controls in each other’s territories at sea ports.

In 2018 the UK and France agreed the Sandhurst Treaty, in which the UK committed to spend €50 million to ‘improve security’ and ‘reduce illegal migration flows’ towards northern French ports, amongst other measures."

Intl law says you have to accept an asylum claim from anybody who turns up, the Dublin Regulation says they have to be accepted by the first EU country they reach.

Will our brain dead Home Sec accept the need for international co-operation or will she find somebody to push (?) them out of our territorial waters. On the plus side Dec 31st is a good time to find out

The uncomfortable truth though is that there isn't an easy solution. The Australian approach has been effective, but highly questionable.

Make it hard enough to discourage most but acknowledge some will get through but that is no big deal and don’t bother taking a sledgehammer to crack a nut.

pinno

surrey_commuter said:

TheBigBean said:

surrey_commuter said:

Stevo_666 said:

At first glance it appears that your source is talking Eurobollox Brian. According to this link:
https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/insights/migrants-crossing-the-english-channel/

it is a series of bilateral agreements between UK and France.

Quote: "UK-French cooperation in this area has been formalised through a series of bilateral agreements, including the Sangatte Protocol in 1991 and the Treaty of Le Touquet in 2003. The latter allowed for France and the UK to carry out immigration controls in each other’s territories at sea ports.

In 2018 the UK and France agreed the Sandhurst Treaty, in which the UK committed to spend €50 million to ‘improve security’ and ‘reduce illegal migration flows’ towards northern French ports, amongst other measures."

Intl law says you have to accept an asylum claim from anybody who turns up, the Dublin Regulation says they have to be accepted by the first EU country they reach.

Will our brain dead Home Sec accept the need for international co-operation or will she find somebody to push (?) them out of our territorial waters. On the plus side Dec 31st is a good time to find out

The uncomfortable truth though is that there isn't an easy solution. The Australian approach has been effective, but highly questionable.

Make it hard enough to discourage most but acknowledge some will get through but that is no big deal and don’t bother taking a sledgehammer to crack a nut.

Sensible doesn't make headlines or win votes.

Stevo_666

surrey_commuter said:

Stevo_666 said:

At first glance it appears that your source is talking Eurobollox Brian. According to this link:
https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/insights/migrants-crossing-the-english-channel/

it is a series of bilateral agreements between UK and France.

Quote: "UK-French cooperation in this area has been formalised through a series of bilateral agreements, including the Sangatte Protocol in 1991 and the Treaty of Le Touquet in 2003. The latter allowed for France and the UK to carry out immigration controls in each other’s territories at sea ports.

In 2018 the UK and France agreed the Sandhurst Treaty, in which the UK committed to spend €50 million to ‘improve security’ and ‘reduce illegal migration flows’ towards northern French ports, amongst other measures."

Intl law says you have to accept an asylum claim from anybody who turns up, the Dublin Regulation says they have to be accepted by the first EU country they reach.

Will our brain dead Home Sec accept the need for international co-operation or will she find somebody to push (?) them out of our territorial waters. On the plus side Dec 31st is a good time to find out

So France should be accepting them, but after this year we are not obliged. Good point.

However the UK-French cooperation is still in bilateral agreements and not EU law, so not sure why the need for new agreements on that front.

Stevo_666

pinno said:

coopster_the_1st said:

pblakeney said:

Is the irony based on asking the French to keep the people that we don't want?

I think the irony is that despite the lies Remoaners told us, desperate people still see the UK as a better option than the rest of the EU

No it's more irony that it looks like we will have less control on migrants because we left the EU and one of the principal reasons we left the EU...

Hang on, why am I bothering?

Well exactly, it won't change the fact that we've left. May as well adapt to the new reality.

surrey_commuter

Stevo_666 said:

surrey_commuter said:

Stevo_666 said:

At first glance it appears that your source is talking Eurobollox Brian. According to this link:
https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/insights/migrants-crossing-the-english-channel/

it is a series of bilateral agreements between UK and France.

Quote: "UK-French cooperation in this area has been formalised through a series of bilateral agreements, including the Sangatte Protocol in 1991 and the Treaty of Le Touquet in 2003. The latter allowed for France and the UK to carry out immigration controls in each other’s territories at sea ports.

In 2018 the UK and France agreed the Sandhurst Treaty, in which the UK committed to spend €50 million to ‘improve security’ and ‘reduce illegal migration flows’ towards northern French ports, amongst other measures."

Intl law says you have to accept an asylum claim from anybody who turns up, the Dublin Regulation says they have to be accepted by the first EU country they reach.

Will our brain dead Home Sec accept the need for international co-operation or will she find somebody to push (?) them out of our territorial waters. On the plus side Dec 31st is a good time to find out

So France should be accepting them, but after this year we are not obliged. Good point.

However the UK-French cooperation is still in bilateral agreements and not EU law, so not sure why the need for new agreements on that front.

You have not understood what I wrote

Stevo_666

surrey_commuter said:

Stevo_666 said:

surrey_commuter said:

Stevo_666 said:

At first glance it appears that your source is talking Eurobollox Brian. According to this link:
https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/insights/migrants-crossing-the-english-channel/

it is a series of bilateral agreements between UK and France.

Quote: "UK-French cooperation in this area has been formalised through a series of bilateral agreements, including the Sangatte Protocol in 1991 and the Treaty of Le Touquet in 2003. The latter allowed for France and the UK to carry out immigration controls in each other’s territories at sea ports.

In 2018 the UK and France agreed the Sandhurst Treaty, in which the UK committed to spend €50 million to ‘improve security’ and ‘reduce illegal migration flows’ towards northern French ports, amongst other measures."

Intl law says you have to accept an asylum claim from anybody who turns up, the Dublin Regulation says they have to be accepted by the first EU country they reach.

Will our brain dead Home Sec accept the need for international co-operation or will she find somebody to push (?) them out of our territorial waters. On the plus side Dec 31st is a good time to find out

So France should be accepting them, but after this year we are not obliged. Good point.

However the UK-French cooperation is still in bilateral agreements and not EU law, so not sure why the need for new agreements on that front.

You have not understood what I wrote

Taking what you wrote here:
"Intl law says you have to accept an asylum claim from anybody who turns up, the Dublin Regulation says they have to be accepted by the first EU country they reach."
it seems pretty clear to me that my conclusion is correct.

Please tell me what part I misunderstood.

veronese68

So if we are not in the EU we are bound by international law rather than EU law, so we would have to accept them here as there is no legal basis for our returning them to an EU country. Although this may be dependent on exactly what the agreements with France say.

Stevo_666

veronese68 said:

So if we are not in the EU we are bound by international law rather than EU law, so we would have to accept them here as there is no legal basis for our returning them to an EU country. Although this may be dependent on exactly what the agreements with France say.

The migrants are coming from France so if they came to France first then they are France's responsibility (or if they can via another EU country to France then its somebody else's responsibility but not ours). So France (or another EU country) should be accepting them.

If they came direct from a non-EU country then looks like its our responsibility, but realistically how many can get direct to the UK from a non-EU country in an overloaded rubber dinghy? Can't be that many trying to get here from Norway.

rick_chasey

What's your problem with people arriving to the UK as asylum seekers, Stevo?