Training for the 2015 Marmotte

Tjgoodhew

Title says it all really - I am planning on entering next years Marmotte and feel i should really start focussing training towards it now.

I feel as I am a half decent rider and am confident I could ride a flat 100miles + - I completed my first century a few months back. I know that i need to up my mileage and ride a lot of 80+ mile rides so i am 100% confident with the distance.

But its the climbing thats going to be the issue. I live in Essex and other than a few speed bumps there is nothing resembling a proper climb. I have a week in Tenerife so plan on riding Mt Teide a few times and will probably have a week in Majorca next Spring. There are also various UK sportives with lots of climbing so will try and ride as many of these as i can over the next 12 months.

But its day to day training that im stuck for. Is it a case of HIIT, riding the small short hills i have near me over and over again, Hours on the turbo ........

twotyred

Strangely Essex is an excellent place to train for alpine climbs. You need to get yourself to a place where you can pedal non-stop for over 1 hour at tempo pace (comfortably uncomfortable and harder to do than than you might think). There aren't any British hills that will let you do practise this so long flat roads without junctions preferably against the wind are an excellent substitute.

Some good advice here http://www.kingstonwheelers.co.uk/coaching4.shtml

Mix your training up with endurance rides and long and short intervals. Also try doing near a threshold hour at the end of a 2.5-3 hour ride to simulate climbing when tired.

You don't need to be riding centuries every weekend. I successfuly completed two Marmottes on 8-10 hours training per week where my longest ride was 3.5 hours with 3-4 sportives thrown in. Consistency is the key so regular training with no more than 2-3 days off a week- being a weekend warrior won't work.

As above get 3-4 Sportives in so you can practise your nutrition strategy.

Get your gearing right. No one failed to get up Alpe d'Huez because their gears were to low but plenty have failed because their gears were too high. You need to be able to turn the cranks at 70-75 rpm when going at about 75-80% of your maximum up a 10% gradient. This needs a lower gear than most people think. I use 34/32 minimum gear on Alpine climbs.

The Marmotte is generally hot. If you can, get there a few days early so you can get some acclimatisation rides in.

When you get there take some time to lift you head now an again and take in and enjoy the experience

meanredspider

I think if you start around now, you may be too early. If I were you I'd map out how you think your training regime is going to look and when you will peak. There's not much point in peaking in December.

Personally I think one of the best things you can do is build your confidence. Whilst your fitness will ebb if not maintained, experience won't. Set yourself a goal of a fairly epic ride (by your standards - hilly-ish 120-miler?) for later in the year, train for it now, and then go and nail it. You can then afford to back off a bit during the miserable months and do some long slow rides to maintain your base. Then start to pick it up again early next year mixing the long slow stuff with intervals and the like. Training in the wind is good especially as mental training - hills are different but there's not too much you can do about that other than chuck the bike in the car and find some. Training for Alpe D'HuZes, I found climbing a 500m climb on a soggy fire road up to a wind farm on my MTB was the closest I came to Alpe D'Huez - it took about an hour (though I only did it once not the 6x of AD6). Training around here in Amsterdam was just doing very long rides (165km) on windy days (the wind here is brutal as there's no cover) and using the Tacx VR trainer (though it's not especially realistic).

DeVlaeminck

It's never too early to get fitter but if you are talking about upping your training then you have to ask yourself why you haven't been doing more already - if it's because it'd impact on other stuff or because you really don't want to do that much are you going to be able to sustain it for 12 months ? Maybe try and get into some training groups which are longer/harder than you are used to so that becomes your routine. As far as doing specific training I agree it probably is too early.

Getting there a week early is good advice - I found it took me a few days to get used to the heat.

phreak

Some good tips above. All I would add is to give some thought to both your weight and descending. The first is an obvious one, but it's easy to give so much thought to going up that you don't think about going down. Are you comfortable descending in a bunch? How will going regularly up or down impact upon how you eat?

Going out there beforehand can often be as useful for getting into the swing of descending as it can getting aclimatised to the heat/altitude/climbing.

davidof

phreak wrote:

Some good tips above. All I would add is to give some thought to both your weight and descending. The first is an obvious one, but it's easy to give so much thought to going up that you don't think about going down. Are you comfortable descending in a bunch? How will going regularly up or down impact upon how you eat?

Good advice. Maybe some club runs or evening chain gangs would be a good idea? I passed the marmotte riders in the Maurienne last Saturday (I was going cycling in Italy) and they were all in little tight bunches, there was a head wind and it was unusually cold.

I've a mate who places somewhere in the first thousand of the Marmotte (he's 50 btw), he seems to start his training in December and does weekly long rides of around 100 miles and mixes that with short fast hill climbs with me. You could probably get away with less but more targetted training.

However if you've not done that kind of event before I can't see a problem with starting training now with some longer endurance rides. I ride a lot but normally under 120/100 km and don't really have the endurance for a Marmotte. As a rough estimate you should be able to ride 50% more than the Marmotte distance on the flat; but obviously you don't need to do this very often.

Tjgoodhew

DeVlaeminck wrote:

It's never too early to get fitter but if you are talking about upping your training then you have to ask yourself why you haven't been doing more already - if it's because it'd impact on other stuff or because you really don't want to do that much are you going to be able to sustain it for 12 months ? Maybe try and get into some training groups which are longer/harder than you are used to so that becomes your routine. As far as doing specific training I agree it probably is too early.

Getting there a week early is good advice - I found it took me a few days to get used to the heat.

I think time constraint has been my main reason. Iv been pretty happy with a short ride in the week where possible and a long ride at the weekend. I work long hours in the week and sometimes its too easy to get home and just sit on the sofa and watch TV. But I want to get fitter, stronger and faster and my current riding has reached a bit of a plateu.

I think the motivation of the Marmotte will def get me out riding on the days i dont feel like it and as i have read its best to set yourself a challenge you think you might not be able to complete.

Iv decided on simply upping my hours in the saddle for the next few months and adding some hill intervals and hour long rides at a tough pace. I think the real "training" will start in the winter on the turbo and using sufferfest and tariner road really focus on hard interval type sessions

FastSpecialized

Marmotte is pretty easy to train for as it breaks down into defineable efforts.

1. Adrenaline rush to the start of the Glandon

2. Glandon - around an hour of sustained (other than a short down hill) effort

3. Descent of Glandon

4. The false flat to the Telegraphe - all about getting in a bunch and conserving as much energy as possible.

5. Telegraphe - around an hour of sustained effort

6. Galibier - around an hour and a half of sustained effort

7. Descent off the Galibier and the valley flat to the Alpe - rejuvenating

8. Alpe - an hour and a bit of sustained effort.

The common theme is that there are 4 efforts of 1-1.5 hours, with nice long recovery spells in between each. I'd focus on riding hard on the turbo or into a wind for an hour to build up threshold power. Add a few longer rides to get the distance.

One thing that can't be underestimated is weight. Carrying even a kilo or two extra up the climbs takes it toll over the whole ride.

mrc1

Some solid info so far in the thread.

For some additional advice with a Marmotte focus, you should find the below article helpful, but this far out I would echo the advice here of gradually upping your mileage and output, while trying to avoid taking on too much too soon, as you have twelve months of training ahead, so need to keep an eye on the bigger picture:

http://www.ledomestiquetours.co.uk/marmotte-2014-training/

As a final comment, when not in the mountains with Le Domestique Tours, we also live in Essex so share the lack of climbs with you. Don't let that concern you though, as short sharp hill repeats or other similar sessions are going to do very little for you in the scheme of training for the Glandon et al. Much better to focus on threshold type longer intervals with a consistent output as per the article, which is what the flat lands of Essex are brilliant for. The only caveat to this is that any opportunities you do get to ride Alpine type climbs (on the training camp you mentioned or otherwise) will be very useful for helping you to get an insight on what the big day will be like both mentally and physically, so are well worth taking.

ilav84

I am also looking to do the Marmotte next year so I will be popping in here from time to time. Anyone got any good companies to go with?

DeVlaeminck

FastSpecialized wrote:

Marmotte is pretty easy to train for as it breaks down into defineable efforts.

1. Adrenaline rush to the start of the Glandon

2. Glandon - around an hour of sustained (other than a short down hill) effort

3. Descent of Glandon

4. The false flat to the Telegraphe - all about getting in a bunch and conserving as much energy as possible.

5. Telegraphe - around an hour of sustained effort

6. Galibier - around an hour and a half of sustained effort

7. Descent off the Galibier and the valley flat to the Alpe - rejuvenating

8. Alpe - an hour and a bit of sustained effort.

The common theme is that there are 4 efforts of 1-1.5 hours, with nice long recovery spells in between each. I'd focus on riding hard on the turbo or into a wind for an hour to build up threshold power. Add a few longer rides to get the distance.
.

I don't think there is as much recovery in the Marmotte as that - the descent of the Glandon and the descent of the Galibier as far as the top section of the Lautaret.

For me it was 2 hours effort to the top of the Glandon, 30 minute descent then very little rest until the top of the Galibier which on strava I've got as taking 3 hours 20 with 5 minutes descent of the Telegraph. I've then got 65 minutes top of the Galibier to foot of the Alpe and about 77 minutes to do the Alpe and to the finish (72 minutes ADH time trial). That's for a 7.30ish official (without the Glandon descent) so you aren't looking at that much recovery in there.

venster

Nothing to add, but I plan to do either the Marmotte or Étape next year depending on leave at work.

I'm planning on building a 'Pain Cave' in the garage during August and signing up to Trainerroad to keep/build fitness over the winter months.

william svan

ilav84 wrote:

I am also looking to do the Marmotte next year so I will be popping in here from time to time. Anyone got any good companies to go with?

I think you are the only one for 2015 in this forum or the guy who started it was preparing himself for the ride of his life for more than nine 9 years. he started this discussion in 2006 Anyway to prepare: why not take a road cycling holiday a month (or two) before you go … I really find this the best option. Choose mountain areas to get the strongest legs!

mrc1

As for companies to go with for the Marmotte...

http://www.ledomestiquetours.co.uk/tours/alps-marmotte/

We have lots of happy riders every year with seamless logistics, locations in Bourg d'Oisans and 3/7 night packages all being available in 2015.

bahzob

DeVlaeminck wrote:

I don't think there is as much recovery in the Marmotte as that - the descent of the Glandon and the descent of the Galibier as far as the top section of the Lautaret.

For me it was 2 hours effort to the top of the Glandon, 30 minute descent then very little rest until the top of the Galibier which on strava I've got as taking 3 hours 20 with 5 minutes descent of the Telegraph. I've then got 65 minutes top of the Galibier to foot of the Alpe and about 77 minutes to do the Alpe and to the finish (72 minutes ADH time trial). That's for a 7.30ish official (without the Glandon descent) so you aren't looking at that much recovery in there.

There are plenty of opportunities to recover:
- The descent from the top of the Glandon is neutralised. So, provided you stay ahead of the broom wagon you can spend as much time as you like recovering, at the top, bottom or mid way as you like.
- The valley drag is a pain but in terms end result you will only gain a few minutes at best if you push hard as opposed to pedal easy until a passing group goes by. When it does just work hard for 30s to catch it then take it easy, if the group is going too fast drop back and wait for the next one.
- The descent from the top of Galibier to bottom of Alpe is mostly downhill, your brain may have to work overtime but your legs won't. Apart from a few uphill sections as you approach Bourg most is recovery.

DeVlaeminck

If you hang about at the top of the Glandon or in the valley you will end up further back in the field with relatively weaker cyclists so you'll be left working on your own later on or else having to sit in a group going slower than you would otherwise want. This may not matter for those who just want to finish but the majority of riders probably have some ambition beyond that.

The descent of the Galibier after La Grave is shallow enough for much of it that unless you are in a decent sized group you will have to work fairly hard or go fairly slowly - especially if the wind is in your face. One of our group blew up coming into Bourg because he'd done too much on the "descent" - I'm talking about someone who was winning 2nd cat and LVRC A/B races that season (LVRC anyway and certainly 2nd cat the year previously) so not a mug.

ilav84

william svan wrote:

ilav84 wrote:

I am also looking to do the Marmotte next year so I will be popping in here from time to time. Anyone got any good companies to go with?

I think you are the only one for 2015 in this forum or the guy who started it was preparing himself for the ride of his life for more than nine 9 years. he started this discussion in 2006 Anyway to prepare: why not take a road cycling holiday a month (or two) before you go … I really find this the best option. Choose mountain areas to get the strongest legs!

? I dont understand the first part?

ilav84

mrc1 wrote:

As for companies to go with for the Marmotte...

http://www.ledomestiquetours.co.uk/tours/alps-marmotte/

We have lots of happy riders every year with seamless logistics, locations in Bourg d'Oisans and 3/7 night packages all being available in 2015.

I'll check it out here!

richymcp

Hi Tjgoodhew

I’m also looking to enter next year’s Marmotte (as it happens I’ve already booked my accommodation, things do get booked up) I’ve not entered the event before but I have had a couple of holidays in that area and know most of the climbs (so I‘m under no illusion of how tough it’s going to be). I agree with most of the comments here regarding training on small climbs in this country not being particularly useful and what you probably want to train for is ‘sustained effort’.

I plan to start my training proper in January but will try and maintain my fitness throughout the autumn period (when I usually get lazy) so that I have a good base to start with at the beginning of next year. For me it’s going to be weekend rides + weekday turbo sessions + my usual commuting ride to work + a bit or running. I might also try and have a week away (somewhere mountainous) in late spring and enter some of the longer sportives (King of the Downs etc.) just before the event.

As it happens I do most of my riding out in Essex (I live in East London) so it’s been an interesting board to read. Even though I know the event area quite well and have done quite a few long sportives in this country I still don’t really know what to expect, I guess try and be as prepared as you can be!

hypster

I did the Marmotte in 2001 and again this year. I would say the two most important things to concentrate on are endurance and acclimatisation. A program of preserving a certain level of fitness over the Winter and then increasing mileage in the New Year until you are comfortable with riding 100+ miles is the basis for everything else. Mix that up with shorter tempo rides, intervals, hill repeats etc. 3-4 times a week and you should be able to handle the Marmotte okay. Perfecting your energy/hydration strategy over the longer distance is advisable as well and entering some of the 100 mile sportives in the UK are useful for this.

I've included acclimatisation because I struggled with the heat (32 deg C) later in the event this year and I understand it was even hotter last year. Due to the cool weather in the UK running up to the event this year I wasn't able to acclimatise very well. Others in my group didn't suffer nearly as much as me so maybe it won't be an issue with you but it is something else to consider if you do.

One other thing you need to consider is are you doing it just to get round or do you want to achieve a medal of some colour?

meanredspider

When it's that hot, it's difficult to take on enough fluids. I know I really struggled doing Alpe D'HuZes - by climb 4, it was 33C and 94pc humidity and by climbs 5 and 6 I was gasping. Fortunately there were stations handing out cups of water and wet sponges at 3 points on the climb - that helped. With the Marmotte being a timed event, I'd imagine opportunities to refill are sparse. Food is tough to take on too.

hypster

meanredspider wrote:

When it's that hot, it's difficult to take on enough fluids. I know I really struggled doing Alpe D'HuZes - by climb 4, it was 33C and 94pc humidity and by climbs 5 and 6 I was gasping. Fortunately there were stations handing out cups of water and wet sponges at 3 points on the climb - that helped. With the Marmotte being a timed event, I'd imagine opportunities to refill are sparse. Food is tough to take on too.

There were actually quite a few extra water stations en route other than just the official stops. Maybe the organisers had taken on board the problems riders had had with the heat last year and events like the Alpe D'HuZes that you took part in MRS.

Actually that's one beef I have with the Marmotte organisation, namely the lack of information about what is available at the feed stations. I didn't realise that the PowerBar stand at all the feed stations were giving everything away for free. It looked so well stocked and laid out like a retail stand so I assumed you had to buy everything! As such I only took the bananas etc. from the official food tables.

ransos1

hypster wrote:

I've included acclimatisation because I struggled with the heat (32 deg C) later in the event this year and I understand it was even hotter last year. Due to the cool weather in the UK running up to the event this year I wasn't able to acclimatise very well. Others in my group didn't suffer nearly as much as me so maybe it won't be an issue with you but it is something else to consider if you do.

Yep, I did it in 2013 and my Garmin was showing 40degC at the foot of AdH. Kindly locals took to throwing bidons of water over us which they'd collected from the springs and streams up the mountain. For various reasons I wasn't able to get there until the day before the event, which isn't something I would recommend, as I wasn't at all rested or acclimatised. Much better to have a few days to acclimatise and ride one or two of the HC climbs - if you've not done one before then getting your head around pedalling uphill for 1.5 hours is well worth doing, in my view the mental challenge should not be underestimated.

In terms of training, I had a fitness test done by my lbs, and their advice was to focus on long steady rides as my fat burning ability was poor. I also entered a fair few UK sportives, which helped with working out hydration and nutrition, but I'm not sure the terrain was helpful preparation - lots of little ups and downs.

If I enter it again, I will do more intense, flat rides of up to 1.5 hours duration to simulate the climbs. Maybe even do some 25 mile TTs?

I scraped a silver time btw, about halfway down.

meanredspider

ransos1 wrote:

Much better to have a few days to acclimatise and ride one or two of the HC climbs - if you've not done one before then getting your head around pedalling uphill for 1.5 hours is well worth doing, in my view the mental challenge should not be underestimated.

In terms of training, I had a fitness test done by my lbs, and their advice was to focus on long steady rides as my fat burning ability was poor.

Two good bits of advice. If you've never done a big hill, the whole idea of it is pretty intimidating. Once you've done it, you've overcome a big mental hurdle and you'll also have a great idea about pace and gearing too. It "shrinks" the hill (and all other hills - which is a bonus)

Long steady rides is mostly what I did for AD6 - century rides on the NL flatness. It stood me in good stead but AD6 isn't about speed.

Tjgoodhew

Thaks for all of the advice and its great reading.

I am planning on riding a century every month for the next 6 months so I then should be comfortable with long distances. The closer to the time look at increasing intensity and focsuing on 1/2 hour all out efforts to try and simulate the climbs.

I have also got two days in majorca in September so will be tackling Soller and Sa Calobra back to back as well as a further day in the mountains. I have then got a trip to Tenerife in January so have got the 22 mile climb of Mt Teide.

From what people have said im pretty sure I will be mentally ready for it it is then down to the conditions on the day I guess.

The aim is just to finish at the moment but being competitive i feel i might be targeting a silver when i get close to the event

hypster

Tjgoodhew wrote:

Thaks for all of the advice and its great reading.

I am planning on riding a century every month for the next 6 months so I then should be comfortable with long distances. The closer to the time look at increasing intensity and focsuing on 1/2 hour all out efforts to try and simulate the climbs.

I have also got two days in majorca in September so will be tackling Soller and Sa Calobra back to back as well as a further day in the mountains. I have then got a trip to Tenerife in January so have got the 22 mile climb of Mt Teide.

From what people have said im pretty sure I will be mentally ready for it it is then down to the conditions on the day I guess.

The aim is just to finish at the moment but being competitive i feel i might be targeting a silver when i get close to the event

If you do intend to do a time then here's another couple of tips which might help.

Try and keep any stops as short as possible. Practice this on a couple of UK century sportives and you will be surprised at how much time you can save. The stop at the top of the Glandon is nullified in terms of time so you don't have to worry about this. It is a bit manic up there as well as it is the first feed stop so just as well!

As the Glandon descent is nullified in terms of timing you might find it useful to measure what that time is. I tried to do it with my Garmin but haven't had it for long so messed it up. If you have a computer which autostops I would suggest setting this to manual and stop when you cross the timing mat at the top of the Glandon and start it again going over the timing mat at the bottom of the descent. This method obviously relies on you remembering to stop and start your computer manually.

Alternatively you could just leave your computer running and log the time it takes for the Glandon stop and descent but you will have to do some arithmetic on the way to calculate your Silver finishing time. I posted a chart of target times on page 6 of the Marmotte 2014 thread on the Sportive/Audaxes/Training Rides board which you also might find helpful.

Tjgoodhew

Thanks Hypster,

In regards to hill repeats would i be better on something like North Hill or best off going for something a bit shorter and steeper ? I can get over to Kent easily and have got some nasty 20%+ over there but in reality im not sure they would benefit me for long alpine climbs

If you know any others apart from Vicarage and Essex way in Benfleet, North Hill and Church hill in laindon i would be very greatful

hypster

Tjgoodhew wrote:

Thanks Hypster,

In regards to hill repeats would i be better on something like North Hill or best off going for something a bit shorter and steeper ? I can get over to Kent easily and have got some nasty 20%+ over there but in reality im not sure they would benefit me for long alpine climbs

If you know any others apart from Vicarage and Essex way in Benfleet, North Hill and Church hill in laindon i would be very greatful

We tend to train around the Epping/High Beach area for hill repeats mostly because they are convenient for us but they are really a bit too short and steep. We climb North Hill multiple times when we ride out that way but it's just a pity that the middle section is just a little too flat. It would be nice if it was say 8% all the way up like the last third or so. However, it is just on a mile long though so probably one of the longer hills in Essex and if it's good enough for Alex Dowsett...

We also had a couple of trips over to the Surrey Hills in preparation for the Marmotte and some of those are quite long and a change of scenery is always nice as well. We usually park up at Peaslake and spend the morning riding round the area scouting the various climbs. Back to Peaslake for a spot of lunch and then maybe spend the afternoon going up and down (climbing both sides) the road by the MTB trail Barry Knows Best (Radnor Road into Three mile Road).

There are some good climbs over in Kent as you say on the North Downs where you don't need to go too far. I would avoid the 20%ers if I were you. Try and find something as long as possible at around 8-10%. It's been a while since I've been over that way so I can't really suggest anything particular but I have ridden around the Wrotham/Meopham area in the past and there's some beauts around there if you can find them.

Although the hills in the UK are obviously shorter that the Alps I still find them useful resistance training and look to climb them the same sort of way I would an Alp i.e. grindingly slow. I'm sure some people would disagree but I have always found that that way of training conditions my legs to expect the same sort of effort level and cadence that you find on an Alpine climb only obviously for much longer.

I didn't find VO2 conditioning actually helped me very much on the Marmotte but then again I'm not a young, lightweight racer. Your climbing technique might actually be different i.e you might prefer to spin a lower gear for instance so train to whatever suits you rather than what someone on a forum might suggest because that's what suits them.

Just to give you an idea of the training we did. There were six in our Marmotte party this year of differing ages, size and sex who basically trained together on-and-off for around six months before the event. Our usual training regime is a long weekend ride at a steady pace and two midweek rides of between 30-50 miles with usually at least one a hilly repeat. Some of the group also commute by bike during the week as well and I fitted in the odd 2x20 interval session when I could. We achieved two gold medals for the 40-year old lads, one silver (my daughter) and three bronze for the old gits, 50, 58 (me) and 62. All got round without too much distress although as I said previously the heat did get to me a bit forcing me to go slower than I have climbed those mountains in the past.

Tjgoodhew

Super advice - thanks again.

Im actually riding over to Epping on Saturday as part of a 200km ride. Iv got Mott St to go up as that looked like a decent enough climb. I was also in Kent last weekend and some of those hill, altho good fun were stupidly steep. I plan to explore that area a bit more over the next few months and im guessing there will be something suitable over there.

I like to get myself in a rhythm and keep spinning away so 8% climbs are about perfect for me and feel like i can pretty much climb anything that doesnt kick up too steep. The toughest iv done so far is 6.5km of 6% and tbh felt pretty fresh when i got to the top.

hypster

Tjgoodhew wrote:

Super advice - thanks again.

Im actually riding over to Epping on Saturday as part of a 200km ride. Iv got Mott St to go up as that looked like a decent enough climb. I was also in Kent last weekend and some of those hill, altho good fun were stupidly steep. I plan to explore that area a bit more over the next few months and im guessing there will be something suitable over there.

I like to get myself in a rhythm and keep spinning away so 8% climbs are about perfect for me and feel like i can pretty much climb anything that doesnt kick up too steep. The toughest iv done so far is 6.5km of 6% and tbh felt pretty fresh when i got to the top.

Yeah, Mott Street is just one of the ones in that area we climb multiple times. It's got three short sections of about 12% each but not too taxing overall. If you're doing that sort of distance/sportive already I'm pretty certain you'll be okay with the Marmotte.

Steeper hills can be useful as well especially for practising climbing out of the saddle and working different muscles. It's always useful to do that occasionally on a long climb in the Alps to stop you getting locked in one position. You'll probably find it necessary in a couple of places as well!

ilav84

Great advice in this thread. Anyone here from N.Ireland that knows some good climbs to use as training for the marmotte?