Froome on Wiggins and more

tuneskyline

weadmire wrote:

My company WeAdmire designs and fulfills a high proportion of the sales of cycling related t shirts for Cycling Weekly. The first intellectual property we bought were the rights to reproduce Phil O'Connor's image archive on t shirts. (In my view Phil O'Connor is the best of the British pro cycling photographers).

Our offer is self expression for our customers through admiration for the topic of the design on a given shirt. Selling large numbers of shirts through CW allows me to put a number, an admiration quotient if you like, on Wiggins and Froome. Based on shirt sales if Wiggins is 1 Froome would be approximately 0.01. The TdF is a commercial enterprise, it is commercial stupidity for Sky not to have Wiggins in the team.

The rest of it, supposedly picking the "best" nine riders for example, is cobblers even supposing you could say that one of the nine you might pick from the 13 on the "long list" might be better than Wiggins as a domestique for Froome. That detail, one rider to another, cannot be accurately resolved even if you tried to have some allowance for the concept of team harmony. To anyone who tried I would tell them to consider the effect of conflict on creativity in teams. There are any number of cases I could point to, I doubt there are any Froome could quote beyond the one he mentioned in his book. Sky should make the call and tell the people they are paying to stop being stupid.

So your pi%%ed off because you won't make as much money? I think Sky's main concern is to win the tour and Froome is their best chance as things stand. I don't think Brailsford is to concerned about t shirt sales right now.

smithy21

There seems to be a bit of misconception that the people who have managed the last two winning TDF teams are idiots.

Maybe they are learning from previous situations. If Froome not having a Wiggins around allows him to focus on the job then they probably learned that from 2012 when Wiggins had to deal with the Froome episodes.

The best chance of winning the Tour is Froome. They are not going to mess that up for a bit of a party in Yorkshire and selling a few extra bits of merchandise.

FJS

Dolan Driver wrote:

Robert Millar's assessment on Wiggo not getting a tour berth is spot on. Regardless of all the other factors, given what Brad has achieved over the course of his career, he deserved to start the Tour in England. Whoever made this decision has shown absolutely no respect for Wiggins and Sky have lost out on some serious brand exposure. I guess he'll be off at the end of the year.

DD.

I don't necessarily disagree, but after Hoy/Kenny, a Brasslford decision disregarding respect for past performance and popularity can't be a surprise, right?

RichN95.

tuneskyline wrote:

weadmire wrote:

My company WeAdmire designs and fulfills a high proportion of the sales of cycling related t shirts for Cycling Weekly. The first intellectual property we bought were the rights to reproduce Phil O'Connor's image archive on t shirts. (In my view Phil O'Connor is the best of the British pro cycling photographers).

Our offer is self expression for our customers through admiration for the topic of the design on a given shirt. Selling large numbers of shirts through CW allows me to put a number, an admiration quotient if you like, on Wiggins and Froome. Based on shirt sales if Wiggins is 1 Froome would be approximately 0.01. The TdF is a commercial enterprise, it is commercial stupidity for Sky not to have Wiggins in the team.

The rest of it, supposedly picking the "best" nine riders for example, is cobblers even supposing you could say that one of the nine you might pick from the 13 on the "long list" might be better than Wiggins as a domestique for Froome. That detail, one rider to another, cannot be accurately resolved even if you tried to have some allowance for the concept of team harmony. To anyone who tried I would tell them to consider the effect of conflict on creativity in teams. There are any number of cases I could point to, I doubt there are any Froome could quote beyond the one he mentioned in his book. Sky should make the call and tell the people they are paying to stop being stupid.

So your pi%%ed off because you won't make as much money? I think Sky's main concern is to win the tour and Froome is their best chance as things stand. I don't think Brailsford is to concerned about t shirt sales right now.

I don't think that was his or her point. He was just using T-shirt sales as a measure of public popularity/recognition.

gattocattivo

FJS wrote:

I don't necessarily disagree, but after Hoy/Kenny, a Brasslford decision disregarding respect for past performance and popularity can't be a surprise, right?

Well, a couple of things:

1) He's not just disregarding past performance, he's disregarding current form as well. Wiggins is clearly strong enough to go to the Tour and would walk into any other team.

2) Re: the Hoy/Kenny thing, there are some significant differences from that situation. Firstly, only one of them could be selected (which obviously isn't the case in a 9-man team). Secondly, you're selecting someone to ride for Britain and the British public and funders will ultimately be happy with a British gold medal (albeit they would have been happier still with a Hoy gold). That's not the case here - he's selecting a team for 'Sky'. There isn't really a 'sky public' out there who will happy as long as a Sky rider wins. The vast majority of cycling fans don't support a team in the way that football fans do, they just enjoy watching cycling and have personal favourites of individual riders. I would say there are more British cycling fans of Wiggins than there are of Froome and certainly in the wider British public and amongst the people who'll be in Yorkshire and Cambs/Essex/London to watch, Wiggins fans will hugely outnumber Froome fans. They are not Sky fans (well, a very small minority may be) who will be perfectly happy as long as someone from Sky wins, many will be largely indifferent to a Froome win and very disappointed at the absence of Wiggins. Also, I'm not at all convinced that there's more value to the sponsor in having a Froome victory without Wiggins than there is to having Wiggins on the start line in Yorkshire (and whatever ultimate result at the end of three weeks).

joelsim

Quite right. I bet Sky will be having a word in DB's ear.

On the other hand imagine Wiggo being a couple of minutes up after the cobbles and then being asked to ride for Froome.

Macaloon

^^ Wiggins ate a lifetime supply of Wonka bars in 2012: ideal parcours, weak opposition, strongest foe in same team. So not winning was emphatically not an option. Some pressure. Congratulations. He's a living sporting legend.

I find Fuller's exploitation of Wiggins' legend nauseating: from filling Lance's void, to making sure that the problems in Sky are as public as possible. It's undignified and unseemly.

smithy21

^ I don't understand why any of this matters. He won the TDF FFS. It wasn't as if no-one else was trying. I seem to recall he also took Froome for around 2 minutes in the time trials so it's not as if he didn't earn it when he was on his own.

The year Cadel won had Andy Schleck's name written all over it but he fucked it up so the Tour is never a gimme.

gsk82

don't people think Wiggins would lose time on the Ardennes-esq stage 2 to Sheffield before they even get to the cobbles?

argyllflyer

gsk82 wrote:

don't people think Wiggins would lose time on the Ardennes-esq stage 2 to Sheffield before they even get to the cobbles?

It'll be an intriguing stage. Ultimately the riders make the race - it won't be rode like LBL, not with 19 stages to follow. I can see it staying relatively tame a long way in and the GC teams will all roll in together with no major time losses. Going by the profile, the toughest climb is 70km to go or thereabouts, so if they're together at that point still, they'll likely be at the finish.

There's too much on the line for a breakaway to win with a big margin.

alihisgreat

gsk82 wrote:

don't people think Wiggins would lose time on the Ardennes-esq stage 2 to Sheffield before they even get to the cobbles?

Yeah and Froome has an excellent palmares when it comes to the classics?

RichN95.

argyllflyer wrote:

Ultimately the riders make the race - it won't be rode like LBL, not with 19 stages to follow.

It might very well be ridden like this year's LBL.

blazing_saddles

RichN95 wrote:

argyllflyer wrote:

Ultimately the riders make the race - it won't be rode like LBL, not with 19 stages to follow.

It might very well be ridden like this year's LBL.

LOL. Indeed.

Something else that made me laugh.



Liking the show.

Pross

iainf72 wrote:

If I've got this right, people would be happy for Froome to win if Wiggins is in squad.

If he's not, they hope he falls off and breaks something.

Pretty grown up really.

I'm not bothered either way about Froome, I just would have liked to see Wiggins ride and feel the team would have been stronger in support of Froome with Wiggins there. I really don't think he would have pushed for team leadership, he seems quite happy not to be in that position any longer. It seems a travesty that a recent winner and possible stage winner this time around is condemned to riding the track at the Commonwealth Games.

iainf72

Did someone really just suggest a team should be picked based along commercial lines?

Did that actually happen?

The management probably should've sorted this out last year. If they knew Froome was their long term plan, they should've spoken to Wiggins candidly and offered him an exit. If he didn't take it then nothing to moan about, but as it turns out they've ended up with a situation that's not good for Froome (personally) or Wiggins (sporting) and turns the public against the team management.

knedlicky

Most posters here seem to have interpreted what Wiggins said in the BBC interview to mean that Sky have already decided not include Wiggins in the Tour team. But statements from Sky don’t reflect that.

So doesn’t anyone think that, Wiggins’ remarks were actually his veiled way of saying he doesn’t want to do the Tour, unless as replacement for an injured Froome, thus as leader. So actually Wiggins was trying to pull the strings. I wouldn’t put such orchestration past him.

Perhaps he decided the Froome-support remark he made mid-May in his euphoria following his ToC victory was too quickly said, and (unlike what many posters here would like) Wiggins himself doesn’t want to find himself in a supporting role in a team with Froome.

joelsim

iainf72 wrote:

Did someone really just suggest a team should be picked based along commercial lines?

Did that actually happen?

The management probably should've sorted this out last year. If they knew Froome was their long term plan, they should've spoken to Wiggins candidly and offered him an exit. If he didn't take it then nothing to moan about, but as it turns out they've ended up with a situation that's not good for Froome (personally) or Wiggins (sporting) and turns the public against the team management.

No, he deserves to be in the team and I'm sure the sponsors will be less than impressed.

Froome isn't doing himself any favours with anyone.

weadmire

tuneskyline,

In speculating about my motivation you are showing out, I believe the "trick cyclists" refer to this sort of thing as projection. Projection as in you projecting your behaviour onto me. For the record I can take or leave some t shirt sales. I am a cycling fan. Froome is a bit of a bore, probably by his own admission, and I do not think he is as good a cyclist as he thinks he is.

Gattocattivo, here here...

iainf72

Joelsim wrote:

No, he deserves to be in the team and I'm sure the sponsors will be less than impressed.

Froome isn't doing himself any favours with anyone.

How do you know the primary sponsor is not involved and approves of the decision?

Froome seems to be not doing himself any favours by - erm, not really doing anything that we're aware of.

TMR

adr82 wrote:

Exactly. I don't know why some people can't seem to get their heads around this idea.

If Froome and Wiggins had a better relationship, Wiggins would almost certainly be riding the Tour. They don't, so he isn't.

Personally, I find Froome to be an arrogant little ****. He needs to STFU and get on with his job instead of crying like a little b*tch about Wiggins.

I think Wiggins been left out of the Team is unforgivable. Brailsford should pick the best Team, regardless of petty differences, and tell them to do what they are ******* paid to do - ride and win.

I am getting more than a little pissed off with the way this is all playing out - the tail should not wag the dog. Brailsford needs to get a grip of this and fast.

TMR

iainf72 wrote:

Froome seems to be not doing himself any favours by - erm, not really doing anything that we're aware of.

He wasn't very bright having his book released immediately before the Tour was he? I did read somewhere that he had tried to have the release delayed until Christmas - he clearly didn't try hard enough.

iainf72

TMR wrote:

Personally, I find Froome to be an arrogant little ****. He needs to STFU and get on with his job instead of crying like a little b*tch about Wiggins.

What has Froome said publically exactly? There's the stuff in his book but what else?

Oh yeah, that's right. Nothing.

cal_stewart

Just to move this on

Does anyone think that there are 8 better sky riders than Wiggo to go to the tour on performance as shown this season?

TMR

iainf72 wrote:

What has Froome said publically exactly? There's the stuff in his book but what else?

Oh yeah, that's right. Nothing.

The crap in the book (which is public) isn't enough? I fail to see what more damage he could do.

TMR

Cal_Stewart wrote:

Just to move this on

Does anyone think that there are 8 better sky riders than Wiggo to go to the tour on performance as shown this season?

Of course not. Porte is a fucking joke. I don't even know why he's in the Team other than to give Chris a reach around.

iainf72

TMR wrote:

"iainf72 wrote:

Froome seems to be not doing himself any favours by - erm, not really doing anything that we're aware of.

He wasn't very bright having his book released immediately before the Tour was he? I did read somewhere that he had tried to have the release delayed until Christmas - he clearly didn't try hard enough.

[/quote]

I don't know if you've noticed but it's the prime time to release cycling books.

But yes, there's this book, which has got stuff that happened a couple of years ago. Excellent. Being around Wiggins was hard and he was really sensitive? Yep, that was in the Yates book. There's not really anything new, is there? I didn't know Wiggins basically blanked him when rooming with him but whatever.

gattocattivo

knedlicky wrote:

Most posters here seem to have interpreted what Wiggins said in the BBC interview to mean that Sky have already decided not include Wiggins in the Tour team. But statements from Sky don’t reflect that.

So doesn’t anyone think that, Wiggins’ remarks were actually his veiled way of saying he doesn’t want to do the Tour, unless as replacement for an injured Froome, thus as leader. So actually Wiggins was trying to pull the strings. I wouldn’t put such orchestration past him.

Perhaps he decided the Froome-support remark he made mid-May in his euphoria following his ToC victory was too quickly said, and (unlike what many posters here would like) Wiggins himself doesn’t want to find himself in a supporting role in a team with Froome.

Yeah, right. So let's imagine for a moment that Sky hadn't actually made the final decision. So they're still waiting to see if they should select Wiggins. What would they be waiting for? Not form, because he's already demonstrated that: he was in the lead group in Paris-Roubaix and won the Tour of California. So presumably, whether he could knuckle down and be a team player, happy in his new role of domestique for Froome. If they were really trying to see if he could do that, then Wiggins would be doing the Dauphine with the rest of the Tour team, wouldn't he? What on earth are they going to learn by sending him to the Tour de Suisse instead? All he can do is demonstrate yet more form. So basically, the situation is as he said - he knows he's not in the Tour team as things stand.

TMR

iainf72 wrote:

TMR wrote:

"iainf72 wrote:

Froome seems to be not doing himself any favours by - erm, not really doing anything that we're aware of.

He wasn't very bright having his book released immediately before the Tour was he? I did read somewhere that he had tried to have the release delayed until Christmas - he clearly didn't try hard enough.

I don't know if you've noticed but it's the prime time to release cycling books.

But yes, there's this book, which has got stuff that happened a couple of years ago. Excellent. Being around Wiggins was hard and he was really sensitive? Yep, that was in the Yates book. There's not really anything new, is there? I didn't know Wiggins basically blanked him when rooming with him but whatever.[/quote][/quote][/quote]

Of course I know - I hope you're not been patronising...

My point stands. If he wasn't happy with it coming out then he shouldn't have put anything controversial in there. He can't have it both ways.

TMR

Of course this argument is pointless. The fact is that Wiggins won't be riding; some of us are unhappy about it, but the situation is unlikely to change.

As far as the TdF goes, I won't be supporting Froome or SKY this year.

Mark_P

Porte is a ******* joke. I don't even know why he's in the Team other than to give Chris a reach around.

I'm not sure someone who won a Paris-Nice can really be described as a joke. He'd do well on the GC if he was able to ride for himself and had full team support.